Christ_Sheep

Yes, if one is saved they can revert to their old ways. Like many said, however, if a person had really made that life long commitment to follow Christ, why would they turn away? We cannot lose our salvation, but we can practice in sin so much that the lord leaves us in a reprobate state, which he said in his word he would do. It's a real depiction of what happened in Sodom and Gomorrah. Thing is, many are quick to put a person whom backslides in hell. For instance, when someone messes up, or is doing something we personally would never think of, it's easy to harp on that person's shortcoming and, in classic fashion, compare it to our own, and how grevious theirs must be in comparison. But all sin hurts god, no matter how small man likes to label his or hers. What I will say is this in the book of Hebrews Chapter 6, verses 4-6 it says this: "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repenteance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again, and subjecting him to public disgrace." That verse applies to the VERY select few of genuine Christians, but not all Christians. I say not all Christians, for the simple fact, most Christians have not been enlightened on that type of a level that the bible speaks of. Oh, no, in no way am I saying that god is not willing, it's just that many haven't asked, have not been patient enough to get to that level and, many, just have not gotten to that quiet place with the lord; that place to reach the holies of holies. Many Pastors claim to have gotten to that degree, but more have not. Those who do turn away and have reached that peak, they, themselves, put Christ to shame. But, for the average Christian, unless the lord allowed them into a reboate lifestyle, they cannot truly turn away. Just because we sin does not make break that relationship we have with Christ, just the fellowship and there's a difference. He is still our lord and savior, though it is important to repent so the sin consciousness and condemnation won't overtake them.

It's all about love- Brian Mcknight (Beautiful Christmas song) Any Christmas song by Yolanda Adams and The Winans are good too, for examples... The Real Meaning of Christmas Artist: The Winans Born This Day Artist: Yolanda Adams Hope that helps.

How do you know that all animals were vegetarian? Well, for a simple reason. The first shedding of blood was done by god to atone for the sins of Adam. If animals were all peaceful, and that was the very first killing or shedding of blood of any kind, how else could they eat? Remember, if the state Adam and Eve were living in was totally sublime, and there was no death, if it's not meat they're eating, then what is it? The bible only speaks to death in the context of man though. It seems to me that scripture really does not speak to the biology of animals at all. I am assuming you are referring to this: Isaiah 11:6-7 "Then the wolf shall be a guest of the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; The calf and the young lion shall browse together, with a little child to guide them. The cow and the bear shall be neighbors, together their young shall rest; the lion shall eat hay like the ox." Thats a metaphorical passage though. In context its obvious its not literal at all, but is rather symbolic of what the ancient hebrews thought of as a universal peace and justice during messianic times. For example, obviously lions are not literally going to eat hay, felines are completely carnivorous, they can't even digest plant matter. From a biological perspective, and thus I would think (nothing in the Bible indicates either way to me), from the creator's perspective (God), a balance of predator and prey is always indicative of a harmonious ecosystem and I don't know of anything in scripture or in the fossil / genetic record that indicates otherwise, either before or after the fall of man. I am not meaning to be argumentative though, this is all in the contest of "it seems to me". Oh, no, don't worry at all man. I know you are just voicing your point. It's good to have a good old discussion, it's what this board is for anyway. What you said makes total logical sense. I guess my view would be, if god said there would be no more death ( I would imagine) he would be blanket statement mentioning, no death of any kind. To me, if it's end times and I am walking around in eternity and seeing death and decay, even if it's a balance as you put it between predator and prey, in a totally perfect environment, why would anything need to be killed for anyone or anything to eat? In fact, since we will have nothing but pleasant memories in eternity, maybe I am being a bit naturalistic, but I couldn't see myself having a pleasant thought of watching an animal kill another animal, least of all for food. I would think eating something without a living soul would make more sense in a totally perfect environment. For instance, I wouldn't care if I saw a giraffe eating apples from an apple tree, because I know the apple wasn't once a living creature that had a family. However, we do know the phrase that children will play with snakes is not merely metaphorical, why? Because, in a perfect environment there would be no need to fear anything. Manipulation, Intimidation and fear will be done away with. So a Cobra would be perfectly fine to pick up, I wouldn't worry about it biting me. Because the reason it bit me would be because of fear, and a need to defend itself. To me, those feelings of insecurity won't exists as it concerns humans and as it applies to animals, too. Though, like you, not being preachy or argumentative just trying to stress my point. About felines not digesting plants. Well, we can only judge what they can or cannot ingest and digest within the frame and mold we see them in now. We run test and conduct studies on animals, way after the fall of the earth. Obviously, in a fallen world where things are twisted and perversed, it would appear to be that way. Because everything we see now is not in mint condition, like it was in the beginning before sin. In the beginning, it seems to me that felines should eat plants perfectly fine, because they were perfected back then. They couldn't become sick. Because sickness is apart of the curse, nothing gets sick in a place of harmony and love. As for Emily Anne, I will say that demons are not the beast that the bible speaks of. Because demons do not fear humans, least not initially, they fear faith. Demons we can't even see, they're spirits. Humans, of course, are finite beings, and we pose no threat physically to spiritual beings. Animals, however, I believe is the "beast on the earth" the bible refers to. Animals have a natural fear of humans after the fall, that is very much true. Try getting close to a deer and see if it sticks around or not. Usually, horses and other animals that walk on the ground are considered beast. But, whom knows, maybe sparrows are too, (smiles).

How do you know that all animals were vegetarian? Well, for a simple reason. The first shedding of blood was done by god to cover physically, and spiritually for the sin of Adam. If animals were all peaceful, and that was the very first killing or shedding of blood of any kind, how else could they eat? Remember, if the state Adam and Eve were living in was totally sublime, and there was no death, if it's not meat they're eating, then what is it? Fruit or vegetable or grass (perhaps thats a vegetable). To eat anything other than that, of course, would admit something had to be slaughtered. Also, in the bible it does say that the lion and the sheep or ox (I believe, it was sheep or ox, forget which animal) will lay down together and eat straw. There will be no more death, so killing fish is out, killing chicken is out and, anything else that would resort in death. Because that is the way things were supposed to be. And we can tell, before the fall also, that animals were not just drinking milk, or water to sustain themselves. Because, why would a lion and ox eat straw or grass together? I am totally convinced, all animals and humans were vegetarians in the beginning. Also, the bible may not cover it explicitly, but sometimes you have to use discernment when grasping the bible in the parts that aren't as indicative. There were no "weeds" at the beginning of time, simply because god made everything, "good". So grass was perfectly alive, and probably green. Animals have souls, so they too, suffered the fall just like man did. Everything in creation became totally distorted. Again, you may not find that in "Genesis", but if you look at the earth around you and think for a moment that, if, in fact, god created everything beautiful in the beginning, why would anything have a need to die? Plants can die, obviously.

Well, I believe the answer to that question, like some have already said is a resounding, yes. That is, their behavior and instinctual patterns changed heavily after the fall. Notice, that before the fall, man and animals were all vegetarian, which would mean that the slaying of animals would not be neccessary. Man lived in a peaceful state, surrounded by plenty of animals and that let's me know, that their natures were very tame. There were no cases recounted by the bible of a lion mauling Adam nor Eve, for that matter. After the fall, every living soul's nature got bent in direct contention to god's plan. Animals became violent. They began attacking one another for food. They were vegetarians at one point, now all many do is kill one another. Animals have souls, so the way they operated, instantly, changed. Thankfully, we will go back to the way things were, when Christ returns to earth. No more killing. But peace and harmony with all living spirits and souls.

I have never seen this movie, seeing how it didn't get as much hype and hoopla as, The Passion of the Christ leads me to believe, it, in fact, did not do very well at the box-office, how was it artistically? Accurate, unique at all? I may buy this on my own someday, we'll see I'd love to see a film about the life of Abraham, I think it could really be told well, and that many people would appreciate that story.

Faith, you listed the biblical meaning of the word, which, in any case is true, and then we have the dictionary definition of the word which correlates more with being a synonym of "belief", which is wrong ... at least if you believe wholeheartedly what god plainly describes as faith. Chiefly, why many prayers do not get answered is for a few simple reasons, but I will only describe here the major one that I feel seems to be at heart here. Lack of faith. Many Christians just have not had a revelation on the true meaning of faith. The world and it's system will tell us that it is simply, "believing" that what you say or hope for will come to pass. That is factually incorrect. Faith is different. Belief and hope are one and the same. Belief and hope is the foundation of what faith rests on. I can't have faith without hope and I cannot have hope without faith, well I can, but I can't if I want whatever situation I find myself in to change. See my belief and hope is my (goal that I want to accomplish) and my faith is the action be it by spoken words repetitively, or actually physically doing something which manifest my hope to me. Thing is, many people pray to god over and over about the very same issue. We are called to pray to god ONCE about a specific issue, because he said in his word in Mark 11, "When you pray if you doubt not in your heart that whatever you pray for if it's in god's will, you shall receive it." See, it's saying when you pray. When you pray. At that exact moment, you must believe that god has answered your prayer. The world will say, seeing is believing , however in the spiritual realm (since god is a spirit and the kingdom of god and everything else bends to spiritual laws and, god, himself) it doesn't work that way. If I see something, I don't believe I have it, I KNOW I have it. It is like walking into a political debate and hearing both sides from the Democrat and Republican parties, I won't say I believe I see a debate going on, because that can denote the possibillity that I can be wrong, however, I would say I KNOW a debate is going on, because it's before my very eyes. If we are praying over and over about a specific topic, that really says quite a bit about where we're faith wise, it shows a lack of faith. I am not pointing fingers, simply because we've all been at fault for not having the kind of faith god requires about certain issues in our lives, but I am saying ... if I really believed god answered my praers at the MOMENT I initially prayed for it, why bug him again with incessant prayers to remind him, it doesn't do any good whatsoever. What I should do, however is be patient. The enemy knows we live in a time sensitive world where we require/need things in a time span and at a certain period, so it is so easy for us to become weary and agitated. God also said, "The testing of your patience blooms faith." He's not testing anyone, but the circumstances in this world, brought on mainly by Satan is the one that tests us. Since god knows all that we will ever do, why would he need to test us? You test only to figure out what a person will do, or as far as school is concerned, how much they know. What we should do is be patient. Give thanks and worship for what god has accomplished, and for as long as it takes to receive your manifestation say daily, "Jesus, I thank you I believe I have received." See, according to god everything is in the past tense. So we are to call things as though they are not, as though they were. Christ died on the cross, and said he died so that we may be healed. Healed, pay attention to that, it is in the past tense, not present or future. As far as god is concerned, we already ARE healed. Now, I am not denying the existence of symptoms or problems but we are to ignore those symptoms and problems, and not be moved by natural circumstances. We are to speak the answer to the problem, not the problem. If we do both, it confuses our faith and we get nowhere. If god says we are not to be moved by our senses, but by the spirit, we ought to obey that. Now, I know someone said they did not believe in naming and claiming , but why? God is god of specifications, when he created the world, how did he do it? He did it two ways, by his faith and by careful spoken words. Christ was and is very meticulous in the way that he operates. He had a name, species, type and category for everything that is in existence; he didn't just haphazardly create things with no purpose or just because "he had a few minutes", it was fit to his specifications. If you can believe that we were created in his image, and that we were created a little lower than the angels, after our fallen state (since angels are messangers, and are, in fact, spiritually lower than humans inititally) why is it hard to believe the concept of naming and claiming? If you have faith, you are to act or speak on what you believe aren't you? Because that is what faith is. It is the affirmation of belief. So, for example, when I tithe or give an offering in church, since I know Jesus is a lord of specification, I write on the envelope every week what I am believing for. Yes, god knows what we need before we ask him, but we have to ask him in faith, just because he knows isn't going to get him involved. He's dillienated that part to humans to ask for what we will, and if it is according to his will, it'll be done. Some people get fogged out and become so religious and traditionalist, that they give, yes, but they don't have a purpose for their giving. Unfortunately, without belief (hope) you cannot have any faith, and therefore, many prayers or petitions are never manifested in a believers life. According to god it's already done, but we must use our faith to take our manifestations.You must name it. And speak it, until it comes to pass. Naming and claiming correlates to what we should all be doing in our prayer closets every day. Once again, this is not meant to be taking in an offensive way, but the reason many people don't get things answered is because they operate in the belief (hope) realm, quietly knowing something can happen, instead of using their action (faith) to see the manifestation of their hope pan out. Sadly, many preachers don't teach thoroughly enough about what faith truly is. I can know that if I put my key in the car, it'll start (hope/belief) ... and tell everyone around me that, and yes I'd be correct, but if I don't actually put my key in the ignition (faith),I will never go anywhere. So, that's pretty much my take on things.

The answer to your question is, 10% of expected and unexpected income. What I would do is, if I know I get paid weekly or biweekly, before I spend ANY money, (it's 10% of your net pay), I'd separate that money from the rest of the money I spend on myself. Also, it is good to give offerings with your tithing. If you are a believer of sowing and reaping like I am, you would understand the principle of planting financial seeds to reap (money) if that is what you desire. It's not using god for all he has, but it's a system. The offering is what god blesses, as giving a tithe to god is what opens up the channel for god to bless us. So the tithe comes first, then the offering. That is why it is so important to be a consistent tither. The lord said in his word, "Bring the tithe to the storehouse, so that I may open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing, so there won't be room enough to receive it." He's referencing the fact that the tithe and offerings (both given in faith and with a good heart and attitude, mind you), are what sets god in motion to bless his children. That was a longer answer than I expected, but it's 10% of your earnings depending on your pay period. If you make a yearly salary, then it's 10% of that net pay. If you get paid weekly, then it's that. Hope that helps.

Well, I've seen the video clip online, did not, however muse through the book. The guy who gave his testimony, was not saved when he went to hell, I am 99% sure on that. I think his wife may have mentioned that before she let her husband have the floor. So, really, that would explain why he was given the trip to hell to wake him up on the reality of this place. That, he, himself, had the option to go there upon physical death. Then again, had he been saved god could have just wanted him to experience hell for no other reason than to hammer home the point that this place really exist. It's one thing about reading about hell, hearing testimonies and, of course quite another, experiencing it for yourself ... perhaps in the event that he was a Christian entering this place the lord wanted to use him as a tool to witness to others about this horrible reality. Telling the story would have more credence and authority behind it with him actually visiting there. I definitely believed the story. Seems like it's the general consensus on a painted portrayal and picture of hell. You guys should go you youtube and type in "Tyrone Goes to Hell." It's another testimony that is riveting and really backs many testimonies up.

I'd ask him, why couldn't I be born automatically with faith to move the steepest of mountains, instead of having to cultivate my own faith to that level? (Would've made things in my life a lot simpler) heh.

I do. I fasts on Mondays and Thursdays. My thoughts? I think if applied properly, (meditating on the scriptures, in prayer, or watching and listening to Christian music and testimony), it can be very helpful. It really uplifts the spirit in places we might not even know. I, personally, during my waiting period on the manifestation of my job/career since college graduation, have really tried put it to good use these last few months. I do find myself becoming less irritated about things, that before, I would have been annoyed greatly at. So it really opens you up spiritually, and affects your mood (in a positive way.)

I agree with just about everyone else on this thread, however, I will slightly disagree with the fact that the building is church instead I will say, we, the people, we are the church. The construction or the building is just an enclosure. It's just a building. God is coming back for HIS church, (us) not the physical place in which we decide to mass or corporately worship. With regards to your question, don't let anyone tell you how often or which day of the week you should go on. Don't even listen to my suggestion, let the holy spirit get your attention on that matter. While Sunday is traditionally the day most Christ followers go to church, the other days of the week need love too (smiles). It's all where Christ leads you. You can have church in your very home, inviting over others. You don't have to "go" to church, at least not in the sense its understood. Simply, church starts with us, it doesn't matter where we worship or which day we go on, so long as we are not in error with the holy scriptures.

You definitely mistook what I wrote, (theres hardly anything in my post or what you've said that I am in disagreement with). I was saying, the mentally handicapped and babies both go to heaven automatically when they die. Not that they couldn't be saved, I am agreeing with what you said. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough in my opening post. Well, I make an exception for babies because they're not mature in thought or in their decision making. Yes, they were born into a sinful nature and world, but they, themselves, could not possibly fathom what sin is or was nor could they have a sin consciousness about it. The same goes for someone with a mental disability, if I am thirty, but, my concept of the world around me is scrambled ... or hasn't evolved to the point of a person whom can freely think and make decisions on their own with a sin consciousness Then how can I be held acountable for my sins? It's sort of like the the criminal justice system, those types of people don't go to prison for their act, though it may be a mental institution, because they legitimately didn't know they were doing wrong. I think everyone would be in agreement that ALL babies or infants are in heaven. Of all the testimonies I've seen from people who god allowed to have a brush with hell (before they were saved) none of them ever recalled seeing babies searing down below. I've also read articles that support my opinion as well. I honestly feel the same applies to the mentally handicapped. If Jesus said he is the way, the truth and the life ... I would estimate it doesn't matter what religion you are, you would have to profess that with your mouth and honor that with your actions (should you be a person capable of such), to be accepted into heaven. He said no man cometh to the father, but by him. Allah, Confuscious, Mohammed, all dead guy's aren't going to cut it. You are right about Paul, I will say. However, Paul didn't need to search around for other faiths. Jesus spoke directly to him. In most instances, in this day and age people will not be able to discern the voice of the lord quite as well as he did, especially if they're from another religious group where they weren't taught to discern the voices of their "god" quite as effectively as Christians are. Or if they didn't have a great Revealation of whom the true lord really was. The lord revealed himself to Paul, so he didn't need to search around. Most times, people DO have to search around because god doesn't always appear to us now, as he did to people back then, before they had a chance to search the holy bible or hear it preached to them. Practically, no, no, our entire lives we are supposed to listen distinctly for the voice of god to lead us in our daily functions, whatever they may be. We are both saying the same thing, Christ is the ONLY answer.

Since god said that all will be without excuse, I will say this ... yes they will be held accountable. If someone did not hear about the gospel, why would they be let into heaven? (Wit the exception of babies and those whom are classified having a mental retardation). God will then judge those people who "claim" to never of heard of Jesus on the law which is written on their hearts. It shifts from, "you didn't accept me" to "You have a moral code, you didn't follow it". All have sinned and all people have a conscience. Living in a world where there are so many "beliefs" it would not be an over assumption to say that a person, or a group of people really wanting to live right, that they could explore the prospect and possibilities of other faiths out there. The Holy Spirit draws all men to the father, a person ignorant of the gospel of Jesus still has no excuse, simply, because, that person could have checked out other beliefs, heard or saw what they said, and then made a decision on what they wanted to believe. If everyone could tap into, "lets stay in a region where we think the Gospel won't ever be preached", then there would be a lot more people destined for heaven than there are. I am not trying to be fecicious, but, I am just saying that a fully adult person with an average mental capacity living in an environment where the Gospel had not reached them, (though I find that almost an impossibility, due to televangelism), cannot heartily say that Christ could be not found ... and then on those grounds expect to have his/her bags packed for heaven.

My personal opinion is that mega churches are a VERY good thing, why? Because I think it can be a very useful and, it can be a neccessary sign to unbelievers, that yes there is prosperity in the church. I would be extremely ignorant to say that every pastor of every huge congregation is living what they're preaching or that they're living with ingretiy. But you cannot let your views be swayed by a few bad apples . Law of averages says everything isn't going to always work out just as you imagined it would, or even as it should. However, I as a (WOF) follower, and that is just me I am not trying to influence or persuade anyone to believe exactly what I believe (but me mentioning that is important to the discussion). I feel that many people view the church from a very archaic and traditionilst perspective meaning that in order to be somehow closer to god, a person must appear to be humble and lack financial prosperity. I feel at times there is this nagging buzz that says if a church is well known and on television, then, by default, there's got to be something crooked and not right about the church. I also feel that a mega church can wake some fellow Christian's up to the notion that, hey, we can have something that stands the test of time, is large and stretched our faith a little bit ... to see it come to fruition. Not saying anyone whom prefers smaller churches has a limited mindset, least not anyone on this board, but many people do. When god said to walk by faith and not by sight that is exactly what he meant. When he said the just shall live by faith ... that is what he meant. And faith is more than just saying, "I believe in Christ" it is acting on what you profess you believe. The action is much more important than the thought or the "belief". Not that what the lord has in his hand is more important than, Christ himself, but when he tells me in the scriptures that he came so that we may have life and it more abundantly, financial prosperity and being a person whom is well known, but also holy, I would think is apart of that package. The world and all it's influences have taken up too much of god's air time, I would love to see many more churches grow exponentially, such as Joel Osteen's church in the Compaq Center. I think it is time that we show others and ourselves that we don't have to "get ours in the sweet bye and bye", but that we can enjoy life now, with it's many perks because god promised us just that. I am of the mindset that there in many cases are too many quarrels among Christians about whom is more holy or who knows more about what Jesus actually meant in his scriptures that we are wasting time, it's time to mature, unite and set aside petty differences. It's time to let the world know, and if a mega church is the hook (before letting them read the scriptures themselves) then so be it. There are many whom use the scriptures to tailor their own beliefs. Having a mega church is not wrong, IMO. Is it a calling on every aspiring preacher or minister? Of course not, because in some ways it is a business. Book keeping and accounting for every dollar and cent that floods into the church via donation, tithe or offering is a job that requires a very business oriented mindset, not to mention dependability and honor. Personally, I'd prefer to be involved with a smaller church just because you can get to know everyone on a closer basis and, so on those grounds, I do feel feel smaller churches have their places. At smaller churches like Lady C said, you do get a more, "family" oriented vibe seeping out; than you would if the church you went to housed 3,000 parishioner's.