getat151

wow this is still going on? look at the mess i started lol.

ARE THE ARABS THE DESCENDANTS OF ISHMAEL? DR. ROBERT MOREY Introduction The Middle East will never have peace until the above question is honestly answered according to the historical facts. Myths and legends are fine as stories for children but in the real world we must have facts and documentation. Part One The Arab Claim The Arabs' claim to the land of Israel rest entirely on three false assumptions: 1. All Arabs are the descendants of Abraham through Ishmael. 2. Ishmael and his descendants were included in the covenant God made with Abraham. 3. Since the Abrahamic convenant included the land of Israel, the Arabs have a legitimate claim to it. Ten Historical Facts 1. According to the Torah, when Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees, he went West to what is now called Israel (Gen. 12 ff.). He became a dweller in tents in that land. It was in Israel that God made a covenant with him for the land in which he was living at that time. It was in Israel that he fathered Isaac, Ishmael, and many other sons and daughters. Isaac was the only son of Abraham chosen by God to be the heir of the covenant. Abraham took Isaac to Mt. Moriah to be offered up as a sacrifice to God. 2. The Torah is contradicted by Qur'an at nearly every point. According to Surah 2:119-121, Abraham and Ishmael did not dwell in tents in Israel, but in the city of Mecca in Arabia. Together they rebuilt the Kabah and placed the black stone in the wall. It was Abraham who started the tradition of an annual pilgrimage to Mecca, throwing stones at the devil, etc. Abraham took Ishmael (not Isaac) to nearby Mt. Mina to offer as a sacrifice to God. 3. Ishmael's twelve sons were named Nebaioth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. (Gen. 12:11-16) They intermarried with the local population in North Arabia and produced several nomadic tribes know as the "Ishmaelites." 4. It was prophesied in the Torah that Ishmael and his family would "live to the East of all his brothers." (Gen. 16:12) "And they settled from Havilah to Shur which is east of Egypt as one goes toward Assyria." (Gen 25:18) This broad area is the desert section East of Egypt in Northern Arabia toward the kingdom of the Assyrians. 5. The Ishmaelites are mentioned as a distinct tribe in the Assyrian records. They later intermarried with and were absorbed by the Midianites and other local tribes. In Gen. 37:25-28; 39:1, the Ishmaelites are called the Midianites and in Judges 8:22-24 cf. 7:1f, the Midianites are called the Ishmaelites. The identification cannot be made any stronger. 6. Arabia was already populated by the descendants of Cush and Shem long before Abraham or Ishmael were born (Gen. 10:7). Their cities and temples have been well-documented by archeologists. 7. If all the Arab people descended from Ishmael as Muhammad claimed, where did all the original Arabs go? What happened to them? Who did Ishmael marry if the Arabs did not already exist? If Arabia was unpopulated, who built Mecca? Since he lived there, obviously it existed before he was born. The facts speak for themselves. The Arab people existed before, during, and after Ishmael moved started roaming the wilderness of North Arabia. 8. The descendants of Ishmael were scattered in Northern Arabia from the wilderness of Shur to the ancient city of Havilah. They were absorbed by the local tribes such as the Midianites (Gen. 37:25-28; 39:1; Judges 8:24). There is no historical or archeological evidence that Ishmael went south to Mecca and became the "Father" of the Arab race. Some modern Arab scholars admit that before Muhammad, Qahtan was said to be the "Father" of the Arab people, not Ishmael. 9. The Abrahamic Covenant was given only to Isaac and to his descendants. Ishmael and the other sons of Abraham were explicitly excluded by God from having any part of the covenant made with Abraham. (Gen. 18:18-21) 10. Therefore the descendants of Ishmael and the other sons of Abraham do not have any claim to the land of Israel because they are not included in the covenant God made with Abraham. Only the Jews have any claim to the land of Israel. Part Two Islam's Claim Muslims like to claim that Islam give them the right to claim the land of Israel as their own. This claim rests upon two false assumptions: 1. All Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael; 2. Muhammad went to Jerusalem. Three Historical Facts 1. The first assumption has already been proven false. The Arab people are not all the descendants of Ishmael and hence they are not the heirs of the Patriarchs, the prophets, the Scriptures or the land of Israel. 2. The claim that Muhammad went to Jerusalem is false. According to the Qur'an and the Hadith, Muhammad had a dream in the middle of the night in which he traveled through the sky, visited seven heavens, met great people like Jesus, and visited the Jerusalem. Since this was only a dream, he was never actually in Jerusalem. The Mosque on the temple site in Jerusalem is a hoax built on the lie that Muhammad stood on the site. 3. Nowhere in the Qur'an does it state that Ishmael is the progenitor of the Arab race. Since it is not taught in the Qur'an, it cannot be a true Islamic belief. Conclusion The Arab people are not the children of Ishmael. Even if they were, they would still have no claim to Israel because Ishmael was excluded by God Himself from having any part in the covenant made with Abraham. Isaac was the only heir of the Abrahamic covenant. Thus the Arabs as a people have no claim to the land of Israel. The Muslims have no claim to the land of Israel either. Muhammad never went to Jerusalem except in a dream. The only ones with a spiritual and biblical claim to the land of Israel are the descendants of Isaac, the Jews. Documentation "Arabian literature has its own version of prehistoric times, but it is entirely legendary." (Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 2:176) "The pure Arabs are those who claim to be descended from Joktan or Qahtan, whom the present Arabs regard as their principle founder...The 'Arabu 'l-Musta'ribah, the mixed Arabs, claim to be descended from Ishmael.they boast as much as the Jews of being reckoned the children of Abraham. This circumstance will account for the preference with which they uniformly regard this branch of their pedigree, and for the many romantic legends they have grafted upon it...The Arabs, in their version of Ishmael's history, have mixed a great deal of romance with the narrative of Scripture." (A Dictionary of Islam, pgs. 18-19) "Muhammad was not informed about the family of Abraham." (Encyclopedia of Islam) I: 184. See also pages 544-546. "There is a prevalent notion that the Arabs, both of the south and north, are descended from Ishmael; and the passage in Gen. xvi.12, "he (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren," is often cited as if it were a prediction of that national independence which, upon the whole, the Arabs have maintained more than any other people. But this supposition is founded on a misconception of the original Hebrew, which runs literally, "he shall before the faces of all his brethren," i.e., (according to the idiom above explained, in which "before the face" denotes the east), the habitation of his posterity shall be "to the east" of the settlements of Abraham's' other descendants...These prophecies found their accomplishment in the fact of the sons of Ishmael being located, generally speaking to the east of the other descendants of Abraham, whether of Sara or of Keturah. But the idea of the southern Arabs being of the posterity of Ishmael is entirely without foundation, and seems to have originated in the tradition invented by Arab vanity that they, as well as the Jews, are of the seed of Abraham--a vanity which, besides disfiguring and falsifying the whole history of the patriarch and his son Ishmael, has transferred the scene of it from Palestine to Mecca." (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, (Vol. I:339) In the Qur'an, "Gen. 21.17-21...are identified with Mecca." (The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, p. 193). It also states that the Southern Arabs come from Qahtan, not Ishmael (p. 48). See also: The Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol. 7, pg. 296 where the connection between the Midianites and the Ishmaelites is noted. The Shorter Encyclopedia of Islam, pgs. 178-179. A Popular Dictionary of Islam, p. 127. shiloh my bible talks about muhhamed (founder of muslim religion) coming from ishmael's line im not debating whether all arab people are born from ishmael im speaking of the muslim nation.....which corrosponds with gods promise to hagar about ishmael.....

well i know he came from the line of ishmael but what im sayin is that if you pair that with god's promise to hagar it seems that islam what destined...not saying its a true religion just sayin it was meant to happen and predicted in the bible by god.... when god said....his hand will be against many and many against his hand and he will be the father of many nations.....

I have the NKJV Scofield study bible "Moreover Muhammed the founder of islam, whose adherents form Christianity's most difficult problem, came from the line of ishmael. Islam is the world religion which is, closest to christianity, thus it is the hardest to penetrate with the gospel of Christ." This is exactly what my study bible says..which in that respect corrosponds with the quran...im not supporting the quran im jus saying they relate on that point... so my initial questions still stands did god just predict the rise of islam? is that what he promised ishmael? and if so are they (muslims) destined for wrath because of that promise?

My study bible says that islam came from ishmael....and the quran says the same thing......and gods profecy to hagar would agree muslims are against everyone and everyone is against them..

I was doing a reading in genesis a few weeks ago and i noticed in my study bible that ishmael (abraham and hagars son) was the man whose seed started islam...muhhamed was a direct desendent from ishmael.... while hagard was praying out to god after being sent out by sarah she pleaded with god to save her son..so he answered back promising her he wood take care of ishmael and that he would be the father of many nations and his hand would be against many and many would be against him....after reading this i asked myself........ did god just predict the rise of islam? is that what he promised ishmael? and if so are they (muslims) destined for wrath because of that promise?

I believe there are things that god knows ( things that must happen according to his will) and otherthings that he possibly doesnt know.... If every choice you

Cardcaptor i dont wanna believe in predestination but what other way can u explain it.....of course it doesnt seem fair but gods ways are higher than ours and we dont understand everything...even paul said he sees through a glass dimly......only for a moment... of course it doesnt seem fair at all........maybe thats why paul said "does that make god not fair"....."who are you to judge god"..........."does the pot say to the poter why did u make me this way"....why else would paul say that if predestination wasnt the doctrin he was pushing...everything he said about predestination seems clear......i dont see any other interpretation....thats why i posted this i wanted someone to go line by line and interpret it.......

WHAT Djzed said is exactly what im saying.........i didnt choose to believe in jesus.......i heard sermon after sermon and didnt believe....then all of a sudden i felt his spirit come over me...and it was gods spirit in me that confessed jesus as my lord and savior not my personal choice.....i think god always sets out a choice...but he also says no one seeks after him...not one so...in his mercy he sends his spirit to convict and save the ones that were predestined for glorification... and in the end the ones that didnt follow god get to see they had a choice but out of there wickedness they "chose" not to belive...but if you think about it they just didnt recieve the gift of faith... this is a guess based on my interpretation of scripture............but i also see scriptures that see to go the other way.....like people that get saved then fall away....they couldnt of been predestined to get the holy spirit just to greive it right?.....so this leaves me with a bit of confusion lol...

One light you make a good point...........and i am going to take it in faith..... Mutzrein: those that are saved in my opinion are ones who are born again of the spirit of god.....and that spirit of god lives in them which confesses that jesus christ lived and died for the sacrifice of their sins.....those that are saved pur their faith in jesus christ as their lord and savior...

I appreciate your guys opinions but none of you explained the scriptures i posted....is St Paul wrong....he said some vessles are made for destruction?

Hismindinme...thank you for your reply it was most helpful..im gonna chew on what you said....and ive also read The Power of Now years ago..when i stopped going to church to try out other religions or philosophies...its a good book..but without christ these new age religions are empty.....but i see where your coming from....as far as understanding living in the present and understanding the future is now

I ask this question after reading certain passages in the bible where God is suprised by an event....and most notably where god says in genesis that he regretted making man......so my qestion is how can god be all knowing but regret something and be suprised at the same time...he cant regret making something if he had the foreknowledge right? Say you know if you walk down the street and know your going to get shot but you walk down there anyway because theres a greater purpose for doing so which makes you getting shot something thats needs to be done for that purpose...how could you then regret that...youve counted the cost and made your decision.... right?

This is a question I started thinking about after coming upon some scriptures in the bible talking about predestiny...when i first started going to church we were told that being saved was a choice we were able to make..but after reading and rereading some of the epistles of paul im starting to think otherwise... Romans Chapter 9 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? There are some that would say that out of foreknowledge god knows who would accept him so he chose those but thats not what these scriptures say.....it says there are vessles (people) made for destruction..... I use to go to church and the pastor would say at the end of every sermon anyone that wants to get saved come to the altar and confess your sin and confess jesus as your personal lord and savior...i would do that and wouldnt feel any different after but the pastor is tellin me im saved now...then years later i went to church with my mom one time not even wanting to go and i was sitting there and my heart started beating fast for no reason then all of a sudden i was called up to the altar and the pastor prayed with me and all of a sudden i felt god and truely confessed him as my savior...the words just came out of my mouth....... When i look back at that moment I realize that was gods choice not mine.......i defenitly fall short and ive definetly fallen into the pit b4 but god showed his mercy on me to give me that experience.........When i look at the Gospels you see he chose matthew, peter, john, and the rest of the disciples...they didnt choose him.......even judas was destined to do what he did so the scriptures could be fulfilled.. So my question to you is freewill or predestiny...and if predestiny does that affect your view on god in anyway?

shiloh you said that the son of god is another term used to mean god....but arent angels called the sons of god back in the old testiment..i believe in genises im not trying to argue with you im jus trying to get to the bottom of this....btw we pretty much agree with eachother..what you said about jesus and the fathers relationship not having anyform of reference to us humans..is exactly what i said earlier