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wingnut-

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Everything posted by wingnut-

  1. It is hard to imagine worthy without omegaman, for nearly twenty years he was a constant in this place. I will miss his wise council and friendship, especially his quick wit and humility. My heart goes out to his daughters and family in this time of personal sorrow, as well as all those close to him. While I am selfishly filled with grief, I can't help but rejoice for his gain and look forward to the day when I see him again. Gonna miss you until then brother.
  2. Yes, this is a perfect example of what I stated in the previous post, dissecting a prophecy and attempting to render what follows as irrelevant regarding time sensitivity. Jesus stopped reading at the point you ended the bold letters, but that does not negate the rest of the prophecy. And is an inclusive word, it would be like me offering you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that you accept, only to find peanut butter between the bread slices. He specifically said on "this day is this scripture fulfilled", meaning that exactly what He said was fulfilled on that specific day, it doesn't stop the unfolding of the entirety of the prophecy. How many days are there in the Jewish calendar for a year? I would suggest you consider that within the year of the Lord one should expect a day of vengeance to occur, because that is exactly what the prophecy states. God didn't leave out the jelly, rest assured. Unless you've changed your position on this I believe we have common ground in agreeing that the beginning of chapter 2 is a historical event that was literally a pestilence event. While you and I agree on that, we also both know that many futurists want to transfer all of this as still to come. Problem being, Peter quotes starting from verse 28. 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel prophesies that afterward the events that Peter declares fulfilled at Pentecost would take place, and that afterward references the first 27 verses of the chapter. So all that preceded it had already taken place by Pentecost. That includes verse 11. 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? It also includes these verses which immediately precede it and most futurists claim to refer to the millennium 21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things. 22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. 23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. 24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil. 25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. In regards to chapter 3, it is clearly stated in the first verse that it is referencing the same time frame as chapter 2, not thousands of years into the future. So as I stated originally, the issues come from people attempting to dissect a prophecy and separate parts into completely different periods of time. One glaring contradiction that is overlooked, is that most futurists, particularly pre-tribbers, cling to the expectation that these armies are going to come and surround Jerusalem and God is going to miraculously deliver them. HUGE problem in regards to Joel's prophecy. Joel 3, verse 1. 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, Time sensitivity, prophesies contain markers regarding the timing on things, not difficult to see when you examine history. First question one must ask themselves, when did Joel receive this prophecy? Second question one should ask themselves, Joel says shall bring captivity again, meaning it had already happened once, when was that?
  3. Ok, so here is the issue that I have with this. The title of the thread is about a paradigm shift in Christianity over the course of 2000 years. If you don't have enough evidence to substantiate your claim over the course of 2000 years that is a clear indicator that the premise is faulty. I'm not ignoring your comments regarding heaven, I disagree with the broad brush you are using, but for simplification purposes we won't get anywhere if we jump all over the place. For now it is best to stick with the word angel and see if we can't come to some sort of agreement on that example. Ok, so the examples you are referring to regarding this issue are new believers and haven't had enough solid teaching yet. When I was a child and first learned about Jesus I didn't have any idea what Christ meant either, but none of this is evidence of a paradigm shift covering a period of 2000 years, it is simply a matter of growth in the faith. Messenger, or in my experience people often will say a messenger from God or of God. Now as I stated in the previous post, of all the words you mentioned in the OP this one in particular I have heard misused more than any of the others. However, the misuse I continually come across is very specific in that it is always related to a recent loss of a loved one. Specific examples would be people commenting that their dearly departed is now their "guardian angel" or something along those lines, or the other common misuse is in regards to their dearly departed looking down on them from heaven. All such references fly in the face of scripture, but because of the circumstances often go unchallenged because people are not receptive to correction when it comes to grief. All of that becomes irrelevant though because none of this is new, and none of it is related to a paradigm shift going back 2000 years, and this is a fact based on history and scripture itself. The true origins of the misuse of the word angel dates back to Judaism (see the irony?). Angel worship was a historical problem in relation the the Jews and that issue was a continuing problem in the early days of Christianity and is addressed in Hebrews chapter 1. This of course is one of many errors related to Judaism, and another shining example of why Christians should not be looking to those in error for the truth. Does scripture not pose the question, why should the living consult the dead? I'll address the rest of your response in a separate post for the sake of length.
  4. Hey brother, Just needed to say I was surprised to see this from you, if you had at least tagged him it might not have appeared as a cheap shot. Probably not though, stating that a person "can't" read is not very subtle. As far as the words we are reading having changed definitions, you still have yet to provide any evidence for that. I can't say that I have ever known a single christian that thinks "Christ" was Jesus' last name. That is not to say that there aren't any people that do, but I don't see a handful of people believing such a thing as meeting the criteria for redefining a word for all of Christianity. Now in regards to the word angel and its usage, I would agree to an extent that there are many professing Christians that misuse this completely out of context, but again, that still doesn't qualify as a whole to Christianity because more do not misuse it than those that do. One can easily deduce that any prophecy scripture specifically tells us has been fulfilled has indeed been fulfilled. This includes those OT prophecies which are cited in the NT as having been fulfilled. It seems to me the confusion only exists when one tries to dissect a prophecy and claim only the specific portions of it cited have been fulfilled, in spite of the fact the entire prophecy given deals with time sensitive events that cannot be separated from each other. Joel 2 is a perfect example of this as is commonly seen on this forum. Basically what my point is, that you still have not even come close to providing any actual evidence for what you appear to be claiming is a widespread problem for Christianity.
  5. Hebrews 12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
  6. Psalm 100 Make a joyful noise to the Lord, all the earth! 2 Serve the Lord with gladness! Come into his presence with singing! 3 Know that the Lord, he is God! It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture. 4 Enter his gates with thanksgiving, and his courts with praise! Give thanks to him; bless his name! 5 For the Lord is good; his steadfast love endures forever, and his faithfulness to all generations.
  7. I assumed he meant early church fathers, which I don't usually count the apostles themselves as typically one would just say the apostles, but in this case it appears that is whom he was referring.
  8. Micah 4 It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and it shall be lifted up above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it,
  9. Thanks for clarifying, I thought when you said ECF you were referring to those that followed the apostles, not the writers themselves. I also just realized this was not the thread I thought it was, so my apologies to the OP because I most likely am off topic. God bless
  10. Hey brother, Just a bit surprised by this statement so I have to ask, forgive me if this is redundant. Considering none of the ECF's believed in a future fulfillment of this prophecy, doesn't that by process of elimination lead to the only conclusion being that they "knew" it had already happened?
  11. Acts 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: 17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; 18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; 20 the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day. 21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ Well my friend, you have a serious problem with this considering Peter said it was fulfilled and specifically quoted what you claim to be yet future. Either you believe Peter wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit or you do not, that is what people will have to decide for themselves. I already know where I stand on it, and as I stated previously this all goes back to understanding Daniel properly which you have still not addressed.
  12. Unfortunately you are not being consistent or are unaware of the numerous errors in translation found within the KJV version. You speak in regards to the Greek, so you should consider the Greek are the earliest manuscripts available to us, and then you should probably account for all of the translation blunders within the KJV where they deliberately deviate from the proper translation. The KJV has more translation errors than any of the modern day versions, despite being redone more times than any other version in existence. I'm not going to bore everyone with all of them, but one of the most obvious that comes to mind is in regards to the love chapter in Corinthians, in which the KJV chooses to translate agape as charity. This is the only place in which the KJV does so, every other place it is translated properly as love, but the KJV has never corrected this error and continues to mis-translate it to this day. This is one of thousands of such examples that demonstrate the KJV is not as reliable as you seem to think it is, and in no way is the standard by which every other translation should be measured. The term Paul used is a unique phrase, and should not be used to establish a singular event because there is no second witness to it, so to do so is not consistent with the test of scripture.
  13. You're overlooking the obvious, there were no giants on the ark, that is called process of elimination. You post the verses telling you that the rebellious angels are already bound, if you can't spiritually discern why that is I can't help you.
  14. I know it says that. I am not given over to my imagination. This is about the Demonic entities that did not refrain from going with Human women. Nothing more. LOL and yet it says angels, major fail on your part. As I said previously, I know you are given over to your own imagination and I'm not posting for your benefit, others can read for themselves. All I know is it is time for Christians to walk in victory and let go of imagination.
  15. I believe Jesus, and I posted one of the passages where He told us that satan was about to be cast out of heaven. Jude confirmed this had already taken place by the time he wrote. Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— And this is why your theory goes sideways, that passage is about the Messiah, not the boogeyman. Like I said, you don't understand Daniel.
  16. I know it did. At its height Petra was home to a maximum of 30,000 people, now 85% of that city is buried by the earthquakes. How many people live in Israel today? 1/3 of them today wouldn't have fit in Petra when the whole city was available. Now it is impossible for anyone to be there because it floods, consistently, and the water system was destroyed. On top of that, since people keep saying this is where the Jews would go, how good of a hiding spot would it be lol. Best to follow what scripture says, Jesus told us that satan was being cast out of heaven as a result of the crucifixion, believe it.
  17. There is no problem at all, I am not sure where you get some of your conclusions from regarding giants and such, it isn't in scripture. Sister is 100% correct, this has already taken place.
  18. It's easily refutable, and I have already refuted it, but just to expand on the point let's take a closer look. Revelation 12:5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. Now what we see in verse 5 is a representation of Christ's resurrection, where it states the child was caught up to God, the Greek word harpazo is used. And what follows that according to John? Revelation 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. So satan was thrown down to earth in 33 AD following the resurrection of Christ, and then He pursues the woman. Jesus spoke this just prior to His death and foretold the event was at hand. John 12:30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” Now when it comes to Petra we know quite a bit historically, for starters, Petra was the burial place of Aaron. According to historians and archaeologists, Petra was originally occupied by bedouins that descended from Edomites, but it was the Nabataeans that developed the city and it served as their capital city. It became wealthy because of its location midway between the Persian and Greek empires and thrived as a trade center in the region. Petra became historically known in 312 BC when the Greeks decided to attack the city, most likely to seize the wealth for themselves. The Greeks were defeated at that time and the Nabataeans would continue to rule Petra until 106 AD when the Romans took control of the area. Somewhere in between 33 AD and 106 AD, Petra became Christian, which has been discovered through numerous archaeological digs at the site. The temples within had been converted to a Christian theme, which prompted the Romans to burn them. The area is renowned for its flooding, which prompted the Nabataeans to develop one of the most sophisticated and impressive water systems ever discovered. Through a series of dams, cisterns, and aqueducts they devised a system that took in all the rainfall in the flood season and keep it constantly circulating so that even in the worst droughts they had water year round. This water system that they designed offers explanation to what we are told in Revelation regarding this passage. Revelation 12:15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. The entire water system was designed from the mountainous terrain itself, and made it so that the earth, literally swallowed up the flood waters. It also speaks to the fact that this ingenious plan for the system itself was divinely inspired. Petra suffered two major earthquakes, the first in 151 AD, which reportedly led to the collapse of half the city. The second major earthquake to hit Petra led to its demise, in 353 AD during the Byzantine period the quake was so massive that the water system was irreparably damaged and the city could no longer sustain life or keep the seasonal flood waters out. Petra was largely abandoned at this time, though the bedouins continued to use the area during the dry season, but Petra was lost to the world until the early 19th century when a Swiss traveler stumbled upon it. In 2007 UNESCO declared Petra to be one of the New 7 wonders of the world, and following that declaration the Jordanian government took control over the area, displacing the bedouins permanently. Today Petra is the largest tourist attraction in Jordan, but is only accessible at certain times of the year and only those cleared by the Jordanian government are permitted to visit the site. So, you see, Petra is no longer available in the 21st century, and it is no longer a livable area because of the constant flooding that continues to plague the area.
  19. Yes. Well, let me try to help you out a little bit with that, I am what you would call a historical premillennialist, so things that you consider to be future are already in the past. It begins with the understanding of Daniel, because when one goes off track with Daniel then everything that follows is off track as well. Since we seem to be spinning our wheels and not getting anywhere I am just going to wait until we cross that bridge regarding Daniel's prophecy, because there is no point in repeating ourselves regarding these other things. I kinda feel like I am in the twilight zone a bit myself because what you seem to be saying here makes absolutely no sense to me. Daniel is part of God's word, He already knows it, He doesn't need a book to tell Him what it says, and we already have it ourselves.
  20. Well worth the watch for those interested, but if you could in the future, please submit videos in the proper section so they can be embedded properly. I took care of it this time and will include the video in this post as the link in your post will be edited out. Thanks
  21. The throne of David.
  22. Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.
  23. No, I'm not missing the point, you are just proving my point. You claim it is literal and then since you can't make that fit with reality the objects suddenly become non-literal. John had no issue using figurative language, and God gave the prophecy exactly as He meant it. The wiser thing to do is recognize when a prophecy is said to be fulfilled that it was in fact fulfilled rather than stumble over everything. If it was as you say, I guess we would find it in there somewhere wouldn't we? Go read up on the history of what took place and you will find the people that fled the city and repented, as well as the 2/3 that did not repent and got wiped out by the Romans. Yes of course, John telling us that it was fulfilled is conflating things. The reality is, you are the one conflating things by ignoring what is written. Well considering dispensationalism is rooted in anti-semitism it is no surprise your thoughts take you there. However, you are so incredibly wrong it is astonishing. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 2: 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality. Matthew 11:13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear,[e] let him hear. Mark 9:11 And they asked him, “Why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” 12 And he said to them, “Elijah does come first to restore all things. And how is it written of the Son of Man that he should suffer many things and be treated with contempt? 13 But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written of him.” I think you are one of those not willing to accept it Jesus spoke of.
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