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wingnut-

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Posts posted by wingnut-

  1. 16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

    Let's take the example that Yeshua` (Jesus) used early in the history of His offer of the Kingdom to Israel:

    Luke 4:16-21 (KJV)

    16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias [Isaiah]. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

    18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

    20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them,

    "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

     

    Yes, this is a perfect example of what I stated in the previous post, dissecting a prophecy and attempting to render what follows as irrelevant regarding time sensitivity.

     

    16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

    2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

     

    Jesus stopped reading at the point you ended the bold letters, but that does not negate the rest of the prophecy.  And is an inclusive word, it would be like me offering you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that you accept, only to find peanut butter between the bread slices.  He specifically said on "this day is this scripture fulfilled", meaning that exactly what He said was fulfilled on that specific day, it doesn't stop the unfolding of the entirety of the prophecy.  How many days are there in the Jewish calendar for a year?  I would suggest you consider that within the year of the Lord one should expect a day of vengeance to occur, because that is exactly what the prophecy states.  God didn't leave out the jelly, rest assured.

     

    16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

    Okay, let's look at Joel 2 and 3

     

    Unless you've changed your position on this I believe we have common ground in agreeing that the beginning of chapter 2 is a historical event that was literally a pestilence event.  While you and I agree on that, we also both know that many futurists want to transfer all of this as still to come.  Problem being, Peter quotes starting from verse 28.

    28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

    Joel prophesies that afterward the events that Peter declares fulfilled at Pentecost would take place, and that afterward references the first 27 verses of the chapter.  So all that preceded it had already taken place by Pentecost.  That includes verse 11.

     

    11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

     

    It also includes these verses which immediately precede it and most futurists claim to refer to the millennium

     

    21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
    22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
    23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
    24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
    25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
    26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
    27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

     

    In regards to chapter 3, it is clearly stated in the first verse that it is referencing the same time frame as chapter 2, not thousands of years into the future.  So as I stated originally, the issues come from people attempting to dissect a prophecy and separate parts into completely different periods of time.

    One glaring contradiction that is overlooked, is that most futurists, particularly pre-tribbers, cling to the expectation that these armies are going to come and surround Jerusalem and God is going to miraculously deliver them.  HUGE problem in regards to Joel's prophecy.

     

    Joel 3, verse 1.   1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

     

    Time sensitivity, prophesies contain markers regarding the timing on things, not difficult to see when you examine history.  First question one must ask themselves, when did Joel receive this prophecy?

    Second question one should ask themselves, Joel says shall bring captivity again, meaning it had already happened once, when was that?

  2. 14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

    To this, I'm afraid that I'm not able to convey enough evidence in this forum to substantiate what I believe ... yet, at least not to the affect of convincing a person of this approach.

     

    Ok, so here is the issue that I have with this.  The title of the thread is about a paradigm shift in Christianity over the course of 2000 years.  If you don't have enough evidence to substantiate your claim over the course of 2000 years that is a clear indicator that the premise is faulty.

    I'm not ignoring your comments regarding heaven, I disagree with the broad brush you are using, but for simplification purposes we won't get anywhere if we jump all over the place.  For now it is best to stick with the word angel and see if we can't come to some sort of agreement on that example.

     

    13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

    Well, this may have been a bad example for the word "Christ." There are such Christians, but truthfully, most are "newbies" to the faith and just haven't been taught, yet.

    However, let's be honest: There is a SIGNIFICANT number of Christians who don't know what "Christ" means. They do not know that "Christ" is merely the Greek equivalent (Christos) to the Hebrew word "Mashiyach" usually Anglicized to "Messiah." And, quite frankly, even if they do, they do not know all the nuances of the word "Messiah," particularly as the word is understood in the Hebrew Scriptures or by the People of the Book!

     

    Ok, so the examples you are referring to regarding this issue are new believers and haven't had enough solid teaching yet.  When I was a child and first learned about Jesus I didn't have any idea what Christ meant either, but none of this is evidence of a paradigm shift covering a period of 2000 years, it is simply a matter of growth in the faith.

     

    13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

    Really? What is the first thing one thinks about when another says the word "angel?"

     

    Messenger, or in my experience people often will say a messenger from God or of God.   Now as I stated in the previous post, of all the words you mentioned in the OP this one in particular I have heard misused more than any of the others.  However, the misuse I continually come across is very specific in that it is always related to a recent loss of a loved one.

    Specific examples would be people commenting that their dearly departed is now their "guardian angel" or something along those lines, or the other common misuse is in regards to their dearly departed looking down on them from heaven.  All such references fly in the face of scripture, but because of the circumstances often go unchallenged because people are not receptive to correction when it comes to grief.

    All of that becomes irrelevant though because none of this is new, and none of it is related to a paradigm shift going back 2000 years, and this is a fact based on history and scripture itself.

    The true origins of the misuse of the word angel dates back to Judaism (see the irony?).  Angel worship was a historical problem in relation the the Jews and that issue was a continuing problem in the early days of Christianity and is addressed in Hebrews chapter 1.  This of course is one of many errors related to Judaism, and another shining example of why Christians should not be looking to those in error for the truth.

    Does scripture not pose the question, why should the living consult the dead?

    I'll address the rest of your response in a separate post for the sake of length.

  3. 4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

    Josh and I see things very differently. Josh thinks that I'm not "reading Scripture as written," but I, on the other hand, think that he can't "read Scripture as written" because he can't see how the very words that he is reading have changed in their definitions. So, he inadvertently "reads" things differently than they were written.

     

    Hey brother,

    Just needed to say I was surprised to see this from you, if you had at least tagged him it might not have appeared as a cheap shot.  Probably not though, stating that a person "can't" read is not very subtle.

    As far as the words we are reading having changed definitions, you still have yet to provide any evidence for that.

     

    4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

    The very fact that many well-meaning Christians still think that "Christ" was Jesus' last name is an obvious proof of that position.

     

    I can't say that I have ever known a single christian that thinks "Christ" was Jesus' last name.  That is not to say that there aren't any people that do, but I don't see a handful of people believing such a thing as meeting the criteria for redefining a word for all of Christianity.

    Now in regards to the word angel and its usage, I would agree to an extent that there are many professing Christians that misuse this completely out of context, but again, that still doesn't qualify as a whole to Christianity because more do not misuse it than those that do.

     

    4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

    One cannot legitimately make the assumption that all prophecies in the Old Testament are already fulfilled and no longer are relevant to today's positions of eschatology - the study of last things. One cannot build one's eschatology solely on the writings of the New Testament!

     

    One can easily deduce that any prophecy scripture specifically tells us has been fulfilled has indeed been fulfilled.  This includes those OT prophecies which are cited in the NT as having been fulfilled.  It seems to me the confusion only exists when one tries to dissect a prophecy and claim only the specific portions of it cited have been fulfilled, in spite of the fact the entire prophecy given deals with time sensitive events that cannot be separated from each other.  Joel 2 is a perfect example of this as is commonly seen on this forum.

    Basically what my point is, that you still have not even come close to providing any actual evidence for what you appear to be claiming is a widespread problem for Christianity.  

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  4. Hebrews 12  Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

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  5. 10 hours ago, not an echo said:

    Same to you brother.  I had feared that you had gotten the virus and, well, you know.  About that same time last year, where I had been employed for over 42 years (in the aircraft superalloy industry) had to shut down for an extended period of time, and still is.  To make a long story short, as I am now 63, I went down the path of semi-retirement.  I was already pastoring a little country church, and now I am also drawing my pensions, Social Security, and driving a school bus.  This is something that I always thought I would like to do as a retiree (I love working with kids).  And, who would have thought it, in God's providence, I'm driving the same route where I rode my first school bus when I lived with my grandparents as a child!  Believe it or not, it has been a delightsome experience!  Of course, what makes it that is that God is in it for me.

     

    Sorry to hear about your job, but happy to hear you have found something fulfilling to do with your time.  God has blessed me with an incredible immune system, so the whole covid ordeal hasn't been an issue for me.  My life has gone on as usual, a lot of people at my work have had covid multiple times now but it has no effect on me.  I managed to be immune to the bird flu, so the eagle is not concerned about covid.  My nephew recently got it though, so he is feeling a little rough, along with his wife and kids.  Not sure they have covid yet or not, but I took a few meals over for them today so they could just try and rest a bit.

     

    11 hours ago, not an echo said:

    And finally, I have made a discovery---there's still just 24 hours in a day...if that many.  I am ALWAYS busy.  Part of that probably stems from how my wife employs me these days!

     

    Yeah, still 24 hours in a day, which works the opposite for me since I only sleep a few hours a day, they all seem to drag on.  :laugh:  I may visit your site some time while everyone else is sleeping, but I'm working my way through a few books I picked up awhile back.

     

    11 hours ago, not an echo said:

    So glad to hear from you Wingnut---it has made my day a little more special. :)

     

    Was glad to hear from you as well my friend, God bless.

  6. 10 hours ago, Mama Etna said:

    An eagle that won't eat roadkill.  Now that's a first...  Will you eat a pizza?  :57_57:

     

    I didn't say I wouldn't eat it, I am just certain that the taste would offend lady peartree's pallet.  ;) 

    • Haha 2
    • Well Said! 1
  7. 2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

    Shabbat shalom, wingnut-.

    Thanks for the question, but I'm not convinced that they didn't "know it had already happened." To the contrary, they write in their epistles as though it was still something to be seen in the future! Now, they may have hoped that it would happen in their own future, but they tempered that with trust in God's timing.

     

    Thanks for clarifying, I thought when you said ECF you were referring to those that followed the apostles, not the writers themselves.  I also just realized this was not the thread I thought it was, so my apologies to the OP because I most likely am off topic.

    God bless

  8. 15 minutes ago, not an echo said:

    Hey Wingnut, for about a year now I have been thinking that you had done came in for too hard of a landing or something!  I perked right up and a big grin came over my face when I saw that ole familiar eagle avatar.  Glad to see you're still kicking...I mean flying!  And, Happy Birthday!  How many candles do you get on your cake these days?  And man, I about forgot.  I just thought about you earlier this week.  I came across a site on military slang and when I scrolled down, what do you reckon I saw?  Wingnut, which means "A member of the US Air Force."  I believe I remember something maybe coming up one time about you being in the air force, for my dad was for eight years, and my uncle was a career man.  But, I never made the wingnut connection.  Looking forward to seeing you around...:)

     

    Hey brother,

    Good to see you are doing well.  I'm not one for cake, but as I recall my daughter had four candles on the cake this year.  I guess you could say it gets easier to just use those enlarged candles that represent a number now  :P   In regards to the name, as much as I enjoy flying a plane my handle is not related to the USAF, the origin is far less grandiose.

    Thanks for thinking of me, I'm not online much these days but I try to pop in from time to time but don't really do much posting, just catch up on some reading.  Take care of yourself, and if I don't see you again I'll catch you on the flip side.  God bless.

  9. 1 hour ago, ladypeartree said:

    wouldnt know what roadkill tastes like :24:

     

    Think of every negative reaction your taste buds have ever had to something, mix it altogether in one lump, and that will give you the general idea.  

    • Haha 3
  10. 2 hours ago, Mama Etna said:

    I would invite you to build your nest on me but --eh nope.   Pears are a minor inconvenience.

     1612087885_JoantheVolcano.png.1753de0d92d04567dcc3648d6581a5ab.png

     

    Pears are a lot yummier in my tummy than lava and ash also.  ;) 

    • Haha 1
  11. On 11/16/2021 at 9:46 AM, Retrobyter said:

    At no time in early history A.D. do we have ECFs telling us that this indeed happened in their lifetimes.

     

    Hey brother,

    Just a bit surprised by this statement so I have to ask, forgive me if this is redundant.  Considering none of the ECF's believed in a future fulfillment of this prophecy, doesn't that by process of elimination lead to the only conclusion being that they "knew" it had already happened?

    • Thanks 1
  12. 12 hours ago, Mama Etna said:

    Happy Birthday, Wingnut.  It's nice they start birthday threads for the members here.

     

    Yes, lady peartree is very thoughtful that way.  Except of course when she shakes her branches and messes up my nest.  :whistling: 

    • Haha 3
  13. On 8/24/2020 at 8:15 PM, not an echo said:

    I'm thinking that I made this clear, but perhaps not.  Rather than go back to see, I am talking about the prophecy of Joel's that Peter quoted on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21).  We know that the celestial phenomena were not fulfilled at that time.  These are fulfilled with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Because the rapture happens with the opening of the 6th Seal, the era of the Church ends at this time.  Because the era of the Church started on the Day of Pentecost and ends on the day that the 6th Seal is opened, Joel's prophecy marks both the beginning and the ending of the era of the Church---to the very day.  A very significant prophecy.  How is it that scholarship has so missed this gem?  As I see things, it is in a category like unto the Hope Diamond.

     

    Acts 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

    17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
    that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
    and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
        and your young men shall see visions,
        and your old men shall dream dreams;
    18 even on my male servants and female servants
        in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
    19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
        and signs on the earth below,
        blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
    20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
        and the moon to blood,
        before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
    21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

     

    Well my friend, you have a serious problem with this considering Peter said it was fulfilled and specifically quoted what you claim to be yet future.  Either you believe Peter wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit or you do not, that is what people will have to decide for themselves.  I already know where I stand on it, and as I stated previously this all goes back to understanding Daniel properly which you have still not addressed.

  14. On 8/29/2020 at 1:51 AM, not an echo said:

    Again, no one can go and start altering what is supposed to be inspired Scripture for clarity.  Interpretations for clarity is a noble task.  But, when it comes to the manuscript evidence that we have from which to interpret, that don't get to be altered.  Once more, I'm not saying that there was a conspiracy.  I've only said that we have to be careful about what we allow to be done or what we accept.  And we do.

     

    Unfortunately you are not being consistent or are unaware of the numerous errors in translation found within the KJV version.  You speak in regards to the Greek, so you should consider the Greek are the earliest manuscripts available to us, and then you should probably account for all of the translation blunders within the KJV where they deliberately deviate from the proper translation.  The KJV has more translation errors than any of the modern day versions, despite being redone more times than any other version in existence.  I'm not going to bore everyone with all of them, but one of the most obvious that comes to mind is in regards to the love chapter in Corinthians, in which the KJV chooses to translate agape as charity.  This is the only place in which the KJV does so, every other place it is translated properly as love, but the KJV has never corrected this error and continues to mis-translate it to this day.  This is one of thousands of such examples that demonstrate the KJV is not as reliable as you seem to think it is, and in no way is the standard by which every other translation should be measured.

    The term Paul used is a unique phrase, and should not be used to establish a singular event because there is no second witness to it, so to do so is not consistent with the test of scripture.

  15. 2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

    WHY WOULD GOD WRITE give us SUCH A DEFINITE CONTRAST between those two? 

     

    You're overlooking the obvious, there were no giants on the ark, that is called process of elimination.

     

    2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

    I can't do math at all, so Thank you God for fingers,

    BUT I can add up verses without taking them out of their context AND SPIRITUALLY DISCERN EXACTLY AS GOD tells us to with the here and there a little. 

     

    You post the verses telling you that the rebellious angels are already bound, if you can't spiritually discern why that is I can't help you.

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