wingnut-

Hey brother, good to talk with you as always. I understand what you are saying, but when we take scripture as a whole there is not one single instance where the color white is used to depict or symbolize anything other than holiness. Then there is the issue of the white rider appearing in two places of the same book and not being consistent with the identity. As well as victory and the victor's crown would fit more with Jesus than the enemy wouldn't you say? I agree, and I acknowledge the relevance of that scripture and the possibility it is applicable to the scenario. In conjunction with your offering from Ephesians credibility is established in that regards. At the same time, I can also offer scriptures that display God, or an instrument of God (such as Cyrus) depicted with a bow battling against God's enemies, which would support what I see in regards to this. Genesis 49:22 “Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough by a spring; his branches run over the wall. 23 The archers bitterly attacked him, shot at him, and harassed him severely, 24 yet his bow remained unmoved; his arms were made agile by the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (from there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel), II Samuel 22:14 The Lord thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered his voice. 15 And he sent out arrows and scattered them; lightning, and routed them. These are just two examples, there are a lot more I can produce as well. In regards to the idea that has been presented by others regarding a bent bow, consider that this in no way implies definitively that a bent bow represents lies or dishonest dealings according to this scripture from the same chapter as II Samuel above. II Samuel 22:35 He trains my hands for war, so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze. I can't say for certain where this falls as far as chronology when factoring in Luke's account and the timeline within it. Mainly because Luke is the one account that does not include this specific information. I think though that we agree it is related to the fullness of the Gentiles and that we both see this as yet future. What I see taking place when the first seal is opened is the genesis of the New Covenant, which is laid out in its entirety within Revelation, and that began with His first advent. We see this also included in chapter 12 where the birth, attempts by Herod to kill Him as a child, and the establishment of who the woman represents included within the Revelation, which indicates that historical information is directly related to the Revelation. I understand, and I am not posting with the intent of convincing anyone of anything, that's God's job if there is an error that needs correcting. The main reason I decided to post in the first place is because the OP and some who responded, have decided that mockery by method of ignoring God's attributes and even worse, recognizing those attributes as something the enemy possesses, were somehow a solid foundation for their belief. What I have offered is in my opinion a much more sound and harmonious application of scripture as a whole, and certainly worth considering for anyone that is interested in knowing for certain that what they believe to be true, is actually true. I know you are a reasonable man, and will consider what a brother offers and decide based on the evidence and personal conviction, others are convinced they know everything and will not give it due consideration. All I am saying, is that despite the position being called a blunder (not by you), there is merit to it, and I believe more merit than what has been presented to the contrary.

Brother, I understand that is the conclusion you have arrived at, but if your conclusion is reached on faulty premises such as the devil having attributes only God has then you have an error in there somewhere. The dragon and the beast are two separate and distinct entities that not only interact with each other, but are also destroyed at different times roughly 1000 years apart. I've shown you the scripture that proves this, at some point you have to reconcile the truth of it with your beliefs. No it doesn't, I showed you the scripture that makes it clear David is lamenting the death of Saul and his son Jonathan. Verses do not stand alone, they must be applied in context.

Not exactly true, the passage says nothing about peace, you are assuming that from the bow and have yet to establish it. What it actually says is the opposite, the rider doesn't just come out conquering, he does conquer. Revelation 6 Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer. Sounds more like what Jesus accomplished to me, remember during His first advent He declared the following. Matthew 10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." Again that is the point to a question I have asked several times now and you still have not addressed. Do symbols change in scripture? But it doesn't say anything about the beast being on a white horse does it? You kinda just dumped what we were discussing about how you can attribute something regarding the devil to a different entity, namely the beast. This started with you asserting Jesus could not be in two places at the same time, and then suggesting the devil can be. I think since you have that backwards, you may want to rethink a few things.

Not seeing a correlation here in regards to referencing peace. David is lamenting over the death of Saul and Jonathan, and interestingly enough, this passage actually supports what I have stated, read it with a little more context. II Samuel 1:14 David said to him, “How is it you were not afraid to put out your hand to destroy the Lord's anointed?” 15 Then David called one of the young men and said, “Go, execute him.” And he struck him down so that he died. 16 And David said to him, “Your blood be on your head, for your own mouth has testified against you, saying, ‘I have killed the Lord's anointed.’” Considering Jesus was the Anointed one, wouldn't you say this is more of a "type" or representation as to what was accomplished on the cross? The problem you still have not addressed is the fact that this rider was given a crown, who has the authority to give it to him, and doesn't scripture teach us that Jesus was given all authority and crowned?

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. The beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire here, following the battle of Armageddon. Revelation 20: 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Satan is thrown into the lake of fire after the thousand years, and as the passage clearly shows, the beast and false prophet were already there. "Were" is past tense.

Thanks, where is your second witness? Everything must be established by two or more witnesses.

How can he be in the lake of fire and bound for 1000 years at the same time, then later thrown into the lake of fire again? Satan is not omnipotent, he cannot be in two places at the same time.

Are you claiming the anti-christ is satan? If so, please explain the following passage. Revelation 20: 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Scripture please?

Thanks for your concern, I won't be. Then why would you ask that question? That's my point, John does identify Him as the rider on the white horse. Do you have any examples from scripture where a symbol changes from one thing to another? Do you have any examples from scripture where the color "white" is identified with the wicked or evil?

I am curious, how many times in scripture is the color "white" associated with evil? At what point does the Lord cease being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent? Could it be, is it possible, that His first advent is precisely what is transpiring with that first seal? Have you ever asked yourself, who is giving this rider a crown to begin with? Is there anywhere in scripture that God gives a crown to an enemy of His? Another thought to consider here, how often does a symbol change in scripture? Since Jesus is identified as the rider on the white horse later, wouldn't that be a little more consistent? I don't imagine you read the Lamb of God and decide it suddenly represents someone other than Jesus, so I can't imagine why this symbol should be regarded any differently.

I'm not sure if that is good or bad, it doesn't sound like a positive, but I know when I've challenged my own thoughts in the past it made me cringe a bit too at times. If it's bad, I apologize for that, I know I am blunt or direct so it does come off to some as aggressive. I guess I just prefer to get to the point is all. As far as the closed minded, that isn't the case, the problem to this point is you are not giving me any evidence that supports your claims in scripture. I have considered some of the possibilities in the past, in regards to these things being the result of natural phenomenon. The problem that you eventually run into is, when you consider a solar eclipse or a lunar eclipse, in both instances they require the participation of the other object in question. In the scenario presented at the 6th seal both celestial objects are affected at the same time, that has never occurred before. In light of that I have concluded this can only be accomplished by a divine act, and as a result to me the same will apply to the stars. The issue with stars is even broader, because we have no idea what actual distance they are from us, so if you consider most of them are considered to be such a great distance, where are they falling to? Certainly not to earth. I envision something along the lines of what some of the OT prophecies speak to, God will just move His hand and "wipe" them away. I didn't imagine you did, which was why I asked the question. But, I still think that presents problems that you have to account for. Keep in mind what we do know, the issue of total darkness and this requirement for the sign of His coming. Also, consider what I said above, these celestial conditions are unique, and consider all of that in light of Zechariah's prophecy that I touched on in a previous post. Zechariah 14:6 On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. 7 And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light. I'm sure you agree with me that Zechariah is speaking about the day of the Lord, in which He has come. Then, you have to ask yourself, can a day of darkness be unique if the same conditions occurred seven years prior? Neither day or night, no sun or moon to make it either, and then see if what occurs at the 6th seal can be accounted for in any other event that follows.

I am not sure there is scripture to say definitively that they sang in church, but considering the early church was mostly made up of Messianic Jews, and that the Israelites had been singing songs of worship to God going all the way back to the OT days I believe that they did. The book of Psalms, those are all songs, sung to the Lord.

In regards to the concept of work and how it is a means to avoiding temptation, I wanted to share a few things that I have observed or experienced in this manner. It may or may not address what Abrielle had in mind, so I hope I'm not stealing his thunder. II Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. 9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. 11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. 12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living. When a person is idle, it becomes a breeding ground for doing non-constructive things, which Paul touches on when he speaks of busybodies. This is often coupled in scripture with gossips and slanderers, people who are busy doing things they ought not to be doing. When we keep ourselves busy in a constructive way, such as work, or providing for our families as we should, then we are not causing issues.

The falling away was a 1st century event, per the gospel accounts of the Olivet discourse. Notice, how according to Luke's account, the Lord specifically tells the disciples they will personally experience this. Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. Notice how Luke opens, and notice the last sentence, because the terrors and signs from heaven are related to the events of Revelation. Luke 21:12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives. Now if you prefer reading Matthew's account of the Olivet discourse, you still must apply the truth known from Luke's account and apply it appropriately. So this is how it should be viewed properly. Matthew 24: 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. BUT BEFORE ALL THIS Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

I'm glad you are taking time to consider it, because at the end of the day, to understand what is to take place it is imperative that our timeline is established by known events that we can positively identify within scripture. The three woes are some of these examples, tied to known events, and also identified apart from those events specifically so we can establish a sequence within the Revelation. The things described following the 7th trumpet are also known events that serve in the same manner, which is why these two areas are so important. The resurrection, which is the equivalent of the gathering is another example. I suspect that may be the case, based on the timing of events, but I am not dogmatic about it because no one can say definitively either way since it is not said or directly linked to any of the statements made at the 7th trumpet. One of the issues regarding the timing of the gathering is that from the information in Revelation, we can conclude based on all of scripture that the first resurrection relates to it, and also one other area that include statements that point to it as well. The example I have in mind would be linked to the events resulting from the second woe, 6th trumpet. Revelation 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. This one, involving the two witnesses, goes hand in hand with everything we know about the gathering. They are called up to heaven by a heavenly voice, in a cloud. Since John only points to one such resurrection, the logical deduction is that these two witnesses are part of that same resurrection, and why wouldn't two very important servants of God be called blessed and holy as those in the first resurrection are called. Now what immediately follows the above verse is that in the same hour there is a massive earthquake, and then it tells us the second woe is done and the third comes quickly. The third being the 7th trumpet. Since the second woe is concluding, it is safe to say that it is not the 6th trumpet call that is the gathering because that happens prior to this and these events are a result of it. But since it says the third woe comes quickly, that would seem to indicate the 7th trumpet still hasn't sounded. It could be that the 7th trumpet does sound, and that statement is just associating the closeness of the two trumpets, or it could be that the trump of God is distinct and separate from these trumpets and just happens to occur around the same time frame with no specific mention in Revelation. As I've stated before the final events I see happening in rapid succession, right on top of each other, and I have also made reference to the 6's and 7's. By that I mean the seal, trumpet, and bowl of each of those numbers, and I also believe they come in that order, seal first, trumpet second, bowl third. But I also see these overlapping each other in many instances, so for example the 6th bowl events can be going on at the time the 7th seal or anything following it are beginning. Sudden destruction, wrath kindled quickly. If you look closely at these 6 events, you will see a correlation between the exact same things or results of those things happening within them. Another way to say it is this, once the 6th seal is open, the 7th seal can be opened, the 6th trumpet or 6th bowl events do not have to be over, they can still be in progress. The same is true of the trumpets and bowls, they must progress in numerical order, but once the 6th has been initiated, the 7th can follow at any time. I hope that makes sense to you in regards to what I mean by overlapping.

I just want to say for the record, I absolutely have no doubts about your sincerity or to whom your loyalty belongs. You are a brother in Christ, I have no doubts about that, so I hope you understand my responses are not meant as accusatory, or that I am assigning any malice to your intentions. I have no doubt you fully believe what you are presenting is true or you wouldn't present it. What I am trying to point out, is that we are given specific instructions regarding how to verify the truth of a matter, and the instructions are to test everything against scripture, like the Bereans did. If something cannot be found in scripture, it simply isn't true, and everything requires two or more witnesses to establish credibility. II Thessalonians 2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, The second Coming is its own event, considering you see them as two separate events, why would you try to change this into your alternate event when it is already identified? If it were your alternate event, wouldn't Paul have wrote, Now concerning the Sign Return of our Lord Jesus Christ? I had said at the beginning of the discussion I wasn't going to engage in any debate regarding the reliability of scripture in regards to translations, but in this instance I am willing to make an exception because this is a valid question with honorable motives. The first thing we have to ask ourselves is, did the translators have deception on their mind when this slight alteration was made, and does it have any significance as far as impact on the message? The first thing that would be required is a second witness. Is there another example in scripture, where a different writer makes a distinction to set apart a specific "Day of Christ"? There are none to speak of, so in absence of a second witness, the idea of a distinction doesn't ring true. So what purpose would the translators have for making the alteration, since changing it doesn't seem to have any necessity? What they changed it to reveals the answer. If we go back to the very start of His first advent and examine the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah, what we find is that the prophets used the terminology Day of the Lord in conjunction with what we know as the Second Coming. Of course there are also prophecies regarding His first advent, where the Messiah is spoken of as the suffering servant which depict His death and resurrection as being necessary, and also reveal that the Israelites would reject Him. The reason they rejected Him is because they failed to understand or connect the suffering servant to the Messiah, their expectations for the Messiah were based on all the prophecies regarding the Day of the Lord. When Jesus came, they expected Him to wipe out the Romans and restore Israel's sovereign status under His rulership. Christ, or Christos in the Greek, means Messiah. So the day of Christ = day of the Messiah, which is the equivalent of all the Messianic prophecies referring to the Day of the Lord. Like for example, this one. Zechariah 14 Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. Zechariah 14:6 On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. 7 And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light. 8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea. It shall continue in summer as in winter. 9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one and his name one. This of course but one example, I could post so many more but don't find it necessary. It should be fairly clear there is no great conspiracy about a single change in translations that does not alter the meaning or point us to anything other than the same exact day, a unique day, which was known as the Day of the Lord from long before Christ walked the earth. No matter what name it is called by, every single instance points to the only one who is Coming, Christ. You're trying to make a conspiracy about an alteration that was done for clarity, and that ultimately is leading you to all the wrong conclusions. First, start with the fact the falling away occurred in the 1st century, per Luke, which you still have not reconciled to your timeline. Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. Luke opens with this information, pay particular attention to the last sentence please, terrors and great signs from heaven. Where would you say that falls on the timeline? Does it sound anything like what takes place in Revelation that we have been discussing? Watch what immediately follows, and please apply the verbal cues to timing of events. Luke 21:12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives. These things happened to His disciples, the very men He was speaking to, and according to His timeline it occurred prior to even the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. There is no getting around this fact, it is not even disputable, so it is time to adjust your chronology of the accounts in Matthew and Mark in accordance with the facts established from Luke. The events in verses 12-19 come before those in verses 10 and 11. Issue number two, Paul already tells us why, and you are attempting to give us a completely different reason than Paul actually says. I Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. The question you should be asking yourself is, why in verse 4 does Paul say to "The Church", the day of the Lord won't come like a thief because you are not in darkness? If there was even a shred of validity to the pre-trib theory, what Paul would have said "But you won't be here, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief." Can you explain why Paul didn't?

What we have is a picture being painted, you have to envision what is being said and paint a mental picture. This is what I see. Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. At this point, what you should be envisioning is total darkness. This event sets the stage for what is to follow, because in order for the next phase to have the desired effect, total darkness is required. I believe there will be a half hour time period from when this occurs, to what follows. Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. From a state of total darkness comes this next sign, and it was previously disclosed to you as to how it will occur. Matthew 24: 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Have you ever been in a nasty storm, where it is really dark, and then lightning flashes in the sky? You don't even have to be looking, you could be standing in your house staring at a wall, but when that lightning flashes you see this sudden light, and you know it was lightning. The difference in this instance, the light will not just flash and go away like actual lightning does, this is just a metaphorical use of lightning so that you as the reader can get a mental picture. The expression about it comes from the east as far as the west is a phrase that is used multiple times in scripture to relate to us that this is an all encompassing effect. The same terminology is used to express the removal of our sins, as far as the east is to the west they are removed. EVERYONE on earth will see Him coming because out of the darkness comes this brilliant light, and it is drawing closer. Here is what you have to understand, these events that create total darkness are necessary to set the scene for His coming. They do not reoccur later in scripture, this is a one time thing that takes place at the 6th seal, there is nothing that takes place at what you consider the end to duplicate this scenario. So either you have 7 years of total darkness, which later trumpet and bowl judgements make impossible, or this event occurs at the end of the tribulation as Jesus said it does.

The celestial events, you mean the sun going dark, the moon going dark, and the stars falling from the sky? You're saying it isn't hard to envision these things lingering, so I have to ask this, exactly how would a star that falls out of the sky put itself back? These events are a particular problem for you, because the conditions that result from such a thing is called, total darkness. 7 years of total darkness, is this what you envision? If so, explain this. Revelation 16:10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish 11 and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds. And of course you have other issues, relating to events that would follow this by your chronology relating to the sun specifically. Revelation 16:8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9 They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory. Revelation 8:10 The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11 The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from the water, because it had been made bitter. 12 The fourth angel blew his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of their light might be darkened, and a third of the day might be kept from shining, and likewise a third of the night. There are a few examples that you have to contend with, and while you can certainly make an argument that the condition of the sun and moon can be restored, there is no explanation as to how the stars would return to the sky. Well the interesting thing here, is the very chapter you have pointed to. What is the context of I Corinthians 15 about? The entire body of the chapter is in regards to what topic? Resurrection. The very passage you point to, what does it speak of? I Corinthians 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. Where in Revelation does John tell us this takes place? Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. Now, hopefully your response won't go the route so many seem to take now out of desperation and attempt to argue that first doesn't actually mean first, because the argument is so ridiculous I won't even entertain it. Instead, I hope you and anyone else reading will consider the last part that I highlighted. Why does the second death have no power over those who are part of the first resurrection? Deductive reasoning should lead one to understand, that once a person has been translated from the perishable into the imperishable, they cannot be extinguished. Imperishable by its very definition correlates to everlasting. This is precisely what occurs as we are gathered, in the twinkling of an eye, we are raised imperishable. Another part of this passage related to timing that absolutely does not align with your theory, is verse 4. How can those who were beheaded for Jesus's testimony, and not worshiped the beast or taken his mark be included in the first resurrection when according to you none of this has taken place? This is what I want you to consider I am referencing when I have pointed out that what dispensationalism has done, is exclude the natural branches, being the Israelites, from being called "Blessed and Holy". Anyone you leave out of the first resurrection, you are removing from the body, as well as the very promises that were specifically made to the Jewish people in regards to their inheritance, which is the same as ours. You have to account for I Corinthians 15:50, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and ask yourself if it seems right that the Jewish people cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

My friend, I really hope you don't take this other than as intended, but it needs to be said. The three gospel accounts, I know them all by heart and exactly what they say, and not one of them gives any indication of a separate event, all three reference His coming. The same is true of all scriptural accounts, the term His coming is used over and over again, and in each instance it is speaking to the same thing. What you are doing here, is creating an event that is not scriptural, and you have even assigned it a title, His Sign Return. The test of scripture in regards to the validity of this is simple, show me the scripture that uses that term, His Sign Return, or Sign Return, even a Sign Return I would accept. Minus any evidence or appearance of this found in scripture, it is not scriptural, it is something you are attempting to force into scripture. Now here is the thing, according to you, this Sign Return is for the Israelites, so producing scripture to support such an event should be extremely easy to do considering the massive amounts of Old Testament prophecies that discuss the Israelites and what is going on with them at this time. So, show me the scripture where Jesus appears and the Israelites see Him, and then He gathers up the church and leaves them standing there with no acknowledgement at all. Unless you can produce scripture that refers to this Sign Return, or scripture that speaks to the event of this and what you are assigning to it, then it continues to lack credibility. The phrase certainly does not appear in any of the scripture mentioned above, nor does any of that scripture address the Israelites being left in the lurch as you have described. When you say Joel's prophecy that is quite a bit of material, much of which has nothing to do with these things. Do you mean in chapter 2 where Joel talks about the locust army? That event is historical, and was fulfilled when a literal army of locusts descended on Israel. You mention Pentecost, so are you referring to what Peter said was fulfilled there? Obviously if it was fulfilled at that time, it is also historical. Or are you questioning what was fulfilled according to Peter? Are you speaking to Joel's prophecy regarding the former rain and the latter rain?

You are correct, I am referring to His coming, and the sudden destruction that occurs as a result.

No, it is marking the event, which is His coming. In the reaction quoted from the sixth seal, is anyone quoted as reacting to the sign, or are they saying things like, "Hide us from His face and wrath?" His face is something specific, and to see someone's face, doesn't it require a certain proximity? His wrath occurs upon His arrival, everything surrounding this event is in response to His coming. Only when the term sudden destruction is applied to the scenario, again this negates a 7 year period of time that follows. 7 years is not sudden. The phrase sudden destruction appears in verse 3, and your scenario does not meet the requirements of sudden destruction. What it appears is happening based on your reference to how the gathering occurs quickly, is that you are applying sudden destruction to sudden escape.

While I agree the two olive branches symbolize the two groups, Jews and Gentile, it is a reference to two individuals, Enoch (Gentile), Elijah (Jew), the only two men in scripture that did not die a physical death. The problem with trying to view the two witnesses are two large groups is problematic, just consider this passage from chapter 11. Revelation 11: 7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, How large are these groups? How many bodies does that leave in the streets? And who would be standing around such a scene, can you imagine the smell of that many decaying bodies?

That is not what is stated at all, you are taking the phrase "all these things" and attempting to reduce it to one thing. He is clearly addressing all the tribulation that He has spoken to them. Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” It's a very odd position to take, in saying that Jesus would speak these things to a specific group of people, and then try to remove from "all these things" the very specific details of tribulation that they are told they WILL experience personally. Then you take something that based on your theory, won't occur for several millennia down the road, and try to narrow it down to just that one thing which then completely removes any relevance regarding the specific audience that asked Him the questions in the first place. You're still not addressing the contradiction regarding the 144,000. We see them being sealed in chapter 7, so they are not harmed by the coming judgements, which means they will be here on earth. The second time we see them in chapter 14, we are told they specifically follow the Lamb wherever He goes following their redemption. In order for that to be true, they MUST be in the same place Jesus is. This does not align with your chronology. The prophecies of Hosea and Isaiah are also in conflict with your theory, in that we are told the Lord takes them aside and tenderly speaks to them privately. There is no scripture to support your theory that their conversion is regarding their seeing Him come to rapture the church, whilst leaving them behind to suffer.

Ok, so having familiarized myself with your timeline via the links you shared, let's just approach this from the beginning of the seventh trumpet and deal with things one item at a time. Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” So what we see in this opening declaration, is that the kingdom of the world, meaning earth, is now His. And He will reign forever, beginning from the moment that trumpet sounds. If we examine what that means, based on scripture itself, it is very revealing. One of the best illustrations we have comes from a Psalm appropriately titled "The Reign of the Lord's Anointed", so let's just walk through it. Psalms 2 Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying, 3 “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.” Now where in Revelation do we see this activity occurring, where the kings of the earth and the rulers (meaning the dragon, beast, and false prophet) conspire to defeat God the Father and Jesus? Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. Pretty straightforward so far, in regards to timing and consistent with the second woe, which as a reminder, is specifically stated just prior to the sounding of the 7th trumpet in chapter 11. Continuing on with the Psalm. Psalms 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision. 5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, 6 “As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill.” God is laughing at them, literally. Now Zion, is and has always been a reference to New Jerusalem, even though many continue to confuse it with earthly Jerusalem. In Hebrews however it is made perfectly clear to us. When Jesus sets down on earth, it will be on the Mt. of Olives, and His first order of business is to proceed to this battle at Armageddon. Psalm 2:7 I will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you. 8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.” This section reminds us of the manner in which He reigns, not gentle, but with righteous indignation. We see this scenario played out in chapter 19 of Revelation. Revelation 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. Psalms 2:10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. 11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him. The Psalm concludes by pointing out the exact thing Paul tells us, sudden destruction. His wrath is quickly kindled, and once it is He comes with a firm hand, a rod of iron. This is His reign from beginning to end. It does not allow for some extended period of time, and it does not allow for your chronology. I'm sorry to have to disagree with you on this, having already covered the opening declaration let's just review the other specifics mentioned as a result of the 7th trumpet and then compare which chapters actually deal with the material. Revelation 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying, “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign. 18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.” Verse 17 deals with the information from the opening declaration we already covered, but just a quick reminder of how this goes down, the beginning of His reign, here is what chapter 19 states. Revelation 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. This points out to us, that He leaves heaven, with the armies of heaven following Him out a few verses later, and immediately proceeds to battle once He arrives on earth. This is in direct opposition to any notion there is some sort of delay, especially years. In verse 18 we see a phrase that should be freshly familiar from Psalm 2, the nations raged, which was how the Psalm opened, but His wrath came, as in past tense. The time for the dead to be judged is next, we find that in chapter 20, rewards for the prophets and saints chapter 21. So what we actually see here, is that this passage from the seventh trumpet speaks specifically to events in chapters 19, 20, and 21. How you get chapter 12-20 I have no idea, because it simply doesn't address any of those in that material. Chapter 12 gives us a brief history of past events to identify the symbolic characters of the chapter, but the contents of the chapter by and large specifically address the first woe, 5th trumpet, from chapter 9. It also addresses the 3 1/2 year period which is discussed also in chapters 11, and 13. Chapter 13 addresses the two beasts, and the 3 1/2 year period known as the great tribulation in its entirety. Chapter 14 covers first the faithful remnant of Israel, symbolized by the 144,000 redeemed from the earth, and who from the moment they are redeemed are said to follow the Lamb wherever He goes. Then you get the messages from the three angels, first that the hour of His judgement has come, and second that Babylon has fallen. So what ties all of this together, where do we see this information? Babylon falls in a single hour, a fact that is repeated within chapter 18 numerous times, so naturally, what would immediately follow is the detail that it has indeed fallen. And where do we find this within the specific judgements mentioned in Revelation? Revelation 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. So if Babylon is fallen in chapter 14, per the second angels message, how can she be draining the cup in chapter 16 at the very last bowl? If Babylon has fallen in chapter 14, how can we then be introduced to clues regarding who she is in chapter 17, and a play by play of her destruction in chapter 18 when she fell in chapter 14 and again comes up in chapter 16 as still drinking from the cup of wrath? How can one argue chronology in the face of such clear evidence to the contrary? Then there is how the seventh trumpet event wraps up, watch closely what is occurring here. Revelation 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. Now refer back up to the previous portion from chapter 16, the seventh bowl, verse 18. Word for word, flashes of lightning, rumbling, peals of thunder, and earthquake, and heavy hail, oh yes, the end of the seventh bowl. Revelation 16:21 And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe. As I stated previously, these final events, starting with the set of 6 and 7's happen very quickly and overlapping each other, sudden destruction, as prophesied.