wingnut-

Two wrongs don't make a right. If he cheated on his wife while they were still married, he is as guilty as she is.

Hello sister, Any time you have a dead body being brought back to life, it is a resurrection. That is the criteria behind the definition of the word. When Jesus raised Lazarus, it was a resurrection. It was not to a glorified body, but it was still a resurrection. The biggest problem with your theory is the fact that John does not write about it, it is not in Revelation. Plus, you are still not addressing the other major issue, Daniel's prophecy. You can't simply add 1,000 years to the promise for them to recognize the Messiah when they were only promised 490 years.

Hello sister, It is in opposition in this regard. Your theory is based on a resurrection of Jews from the past, to a restored natural life under which they must still come to learn and know Jesus. The first resurrection mentioned by John is for believers, those who take part in that resurrection reign with Him as kings and priests during the millenium. They do not reproduce, they no longer are in a natural body as they receive their glorified bodies at the resurrection. The resurrection of the rest of the dead is after the millenium. So what you have is a resurrection that doesn't appear in Revelation. Can you expand on this please. Ok, this is part of the scripture I was referring to that to me clarifies the timing involved. The verse tells us that for a 3 1/2 year period, Jerusalem will be given over to the gentiles who trample it under foot. At the conclusion of this chapter, we are told that the second woe has passed, so we know that this precedes the 6th trumpet (2nd woe). Also, it stands to reason that the first woe (5th trumpet) has already sounded. So what happened at the fifth trumpet? Revelation 9 Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. 2 He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. 6 And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them. 7 The appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle. 10 They have tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to hurt men for five months. 11 They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon. 12 The first woe is past; behold, two woes are still coming after these things. This is also where we are shown that Satan is cast out of heaven, verse 11 identifies him as the "destroyer". So what else happens after Satan is cast out of heaven? Revelation 13 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” 5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven. Here we get the same amount of time again, 3 1/2 years. The two beasts now come about with authority for exactly the same amount of time that Jerusalem is given over to the gentiles, and the temple is desecrated. The Jews will understand they missed something when the abomination that makes desolate occurs, because they know what Daniel recorded. They will flee as instructed by the prophets, and according to Isaiah and confirmed by Hosea and John in Revelation, they will be taken aside by the Lord personally. This is why war is waged against the saints, because the Jews (the woman) that are counted as the remnant are inaccessible to the dragon. Again, for the exact same amount of time. The other major issue with your theory is this. Daniel. 490 years were promised to the Jews. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey exactly 483 years after the prophecy was given. There are only seven years left on that promise. You are trying to add a thousand years to that, which is more than twice the promised time. I can add more scripture to support what I am saying if you are interested, God bless you.

Butero for president?

Glad it worked for you.

Hello Kan, I agree with you mostly, although in a few places we just see things slightly different from each other. I may just have misread you though, so this initial thought is based on how I understood your post. I get the impression you are looking at the seven churches separately, whereas I do not see it quite that way. The epistles are letters to churches as well, and we apply them to the church now, as a whole. The letters in Revelation are no different, so what I see in those seven letters are seven different kinds of people within the church. In regards to this closing statement, and your thoughts that lead you to this, I just wanted to add this for your consideration. This was posted not long ago, but may alter what you consider the final choice to be about. I see it as being between choosing Jesus, or choosing evil.

That is not completely accurate, Moses was at the transfiguration on the mount, and that was prior to the crucifixion.

What you have to keep in mind is that everything changed after Jesus was crucified. Abraham's bosom is no longer occupied. Not only did Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise with Him on that day, but this was also spoken of by Paul when he wrote that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So basically, since Jesus rose Abraham's bosom has been empty, believers go to be with Him. Not the physical body, because the perishable does not enter paradise. Paradise is the place Jesus said He was going to prepare, so that where He was, we could be also. Scripture speaks about the tree of life being in paradise, and that it can be found in New Jerusalem, the place He went to prepare for us. Just my thoughts on the matter, hope that helps, God bless.

Shalom retrobyter, I don't disagree with your argument because it is unreasonable, but more because of the other information provided in the text. Such as the previous verses. Isaiah 24:19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently. 20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again. If the earth is to fall and never rise again in that day, then it must be talking about the end of the millenium, correct?

This verse clearly shows us that Satan the dragon was thrown out of heaven after the resurrection. He no longer has access to heaven and is very wroth. He went after the woman, who is "the doctrine" of God, and tried to destroy it, but the doctrine was protected for these 3 1/2 years and taught amongst the believers, and scriptures were being recorded. It is not speaking of Israel, but the Woman. The woman is God's doctrine. The woman's name is Zion and we follow her teachings. Ok, well, we disagree on the identity of the woman. I am honestly at a loss here and have no idea where you are coming from, I follow Jesus' teachings. I don't know where you are getting this from in scripture at all, this female whose teachings you are following? As for when Satan is cast out of heaven I would offer you this scripture for consideration. Revelation 9 Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. 2 He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. 6 And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them. 7 The appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle. 10 They have tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to hurt men for five months. 11 They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon. 12 The first woe is past; behold, two woes are still coming after these things. Satan is identified within this passage as being cast out of heaven here, and note that it takes place at the first woe. Revelation 12:12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.” This chapter is not dealing with the past, this Revelation is dealing with and telling about future events.

Hello again sister I am unclear as to what you are saying in this segment, but it appears that you are insinuating that those born during the Millenium are ignorant of Christ? Is it not required for all the nations to come up to worship Him at the Feast of Tabernacles every year or plagues come on them? And let's not forget, if a person at 100 is thought to be a child, then it sounds like that first generation could, and should survive for the entire duration. And I say should because that first generation would have been witnesses, so according to your theory would hold fast to what they witnessed. Where is this second resurrection found in Revelation? I only see the two mentioned below. Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. According to what is written here, you have two resurrections in this time period. One at the beginning of the millenium, and the other at the end. Those in the first resurrection reign with Christ, those in the second do not come back to life until after the millenium. This is in opposition to your theory. I see this a bit differently from you, it appears to me that Israel has been suffering for quite some time. That took place so that a way was made for all to know Him and be His children. It appears to me that it culminates at the halfway point, which I see as the beginning of the great tribulation Jesus spoke of. This is when Jerusalem is lost, this is when the temple is defiled, this is when those in Judea that are His are told to flee. They all coincide and if you would like me to show you specific scriptures as to how I will happily oblige you. The Jeremiah passage is specific about the timing, when He begins to bring evil on the city, it is handed over to the gentiles here. Revelation 11:2 Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

control and the minus sign?

Augustus, Are the two of you going separate directions at the end of summer? If that is the case, could that be your answer?

Hello sister, I just wanted to ask you a couple of things specifically, which I find difficult to reconcile with my understanding. Ok, so we have a thousand years of Jesus reigning, and at the end of that His reign ends in a revolt? Doesn't that reduce His reign to being as unsuccessful as the previous reigns? Either He is reigning and it is His system or it isn't. Ok, so if the reason for the thousand years is to bring Israel back to God, then what was going on for the previous 3 1/2 years. Revelation 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. Revelation 12:3 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. For 3 1/2 years Israel is out of the serpent's reach, so what will be going on during this time?

If you can invest in commodities that is probably the safest avenue. Stay away from CDO's or any mortgage backed securities.

I'm not sure there is any right answer here hall. I mean, a person can take their money out now, pay the penalties and taxes which will basically amount to about half. But then what? If the market collapses what will that money be worth? I guess my main point in posting this is to make people aware of what is around the corner. Build your ark before the rain comes, pay off your debts, and be prepared.

The key in the passage is the hour. That hour is found in Revelation 18, and you see at the very beginning, verse 4, "Come out of her my people". This is what people refer to as the rapture.

I asked this question not long ago in the section regarding Hebrew roots. Here is the link if you are interested, I think the lack of responses indicate it is not something anyone can offer but speculation about. The response there seems to be the most widely held opinion.

Hades is the Greek word for hell. It is thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

I disagree, and this is why. The great tribulation does not appear to cover the entire seven year period to me. I believe the seals will start at the beginning, not at the halfway point, that is how scripture reads to me anyway.

Many people confuse hell for the lake of fire, they are two different places. Hell, or Hades, is where the unbeliever goes to await the judgement. Prior to Jesus, the righteous went to sheol, also referred to as Abraham's bosom. Jesus emptied that out by my understanding, so now you have believers going directly to Him, while unbelievers still await judgement in Hades.

I think what this thread shows is that it comes down to personal conviction. Some people feel that violence has no place in their future, there is nothing wrong with that, and it is actually comforting to know there are people who feel that way. Others feel that standing up is the right thing to do, and that is comforting as well. Neither side is wrong, scripture indicates that even in the end this will be the case. Revelation 13:9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints. Verse 10 says it all, and what it doesn't say is that one group is superior to the other. God bless.

I remember them for who they were, not how they ended up. Maybe that might help some? Pictures are good to look at as well, always easier to remember people in a context. The fact that you remember them is showing respect in itself, so your limitations are no slight on them. Always a delight speaking with you turtle, God bless you.

The church is believers, that is the simplest way to put it.

Well since these are the issues in question, can you tell me where I find the two things bolded above in scripture?