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asper

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About asper

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  1. Hi elhanon, Your argument may be convincing to yourself but I would doubt that it is to others. Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. You are assuming that those who enter the kingdom do not have eternal life but can be lost. Robertson’s word pictures, Eternal punishment (κολασιν αιωνιον). The word κολασιν comes from κολαζω, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between μωρια (vengeance) and κολασις. But the same adjective αιωνιος is used with κολασιν and ζωην. If by etymology we limit the scope of κολασιν, we may likewise have only age-long ζωην. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one’s mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word αιωνιος (from αιων, age, αεσυμ, αει) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have "ages of ages" (αιωνες των αιωνων). Mt 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Why? Because that through faith they enter the kingdom. Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Of course there is this verse and what is the requirement. Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. So your thought about us not having everlasting life is wrong. The key is that those who are known of Jesus are the same that will have everlasting life. Mt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. If you want you can dissect this even further concerning the kingdom(s) but that would not be profitable as I know the various theories concerning this and the Bible has the answers for them also. God bless, Tony
  2. I got your point but evidently you avoid my point as you refuse to deal with the context of Jn 3:16,18 and how you interpret it. As for Matt 25:46 refer to my next post. Hi elhanan, If you got my point what was it? Also you told me not to reply on this thread, and it looks like you made it totally optional to start my own thread about it. Quote, If by chance you choose to address Jn 3:18 start your own thread so we don't have to go off topic here. Unquote. So now you want me to answer? I answered which one I chose in posts #131 and #133 I chose to go with the translators. Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Robertson word pictures, John 3:15 present active subjunctive of εχω, that he may keep on having eternal life (a frequent phrase in John, always in John αιωνιος occurs with ζωη, 16 times in the Gospel, 6 in 1John, ageless or endless life, beginning now and lasting forever). It is more than endless, for it is sharing in the life of God in Christ (#5:26; 17:3; 1Jo 5:12). So here εν αυτω (in him) is taken with εχη rather than with πιστευων. The interview with Nicodemus apparently closes with verse #15. In verses #16-21 we have past tenses constantly as is natural for the reflection of John, but unnatural for Jesus speaking. There are phrases like the Prologue (verse #19; 1:9-11). "Only begotten" does not occur elsewhere in the words of Jesus, but is in #1:14,18; 1Jo 4:9. John often puts in explanatory comments (#Jo 1:16-18; 12:37-41). John 3:16 For so (ουτως γαρ). This use of γαρ is quite in John’s style in introducing his comments (#2:25; 4:8; 5:13, etc.). This "Little Gospel" as it is often called, this "comfortable word" (the Anglican Liturgy), while not a quotation from Jesus is a just and marvellous interpretation of the mission and message of our Lord. In verses #16-21 John recapitulates in summary fashion the teaching of Jesus to Nicodemus. Loved (ηγαπησεν). First aorist active indicative of αγαπαω, the noble word so common in the Gospels for the highest form of love, used here as often in John (#14:23; 17:23; 1Jo 3:1; 4:10) of God’s love for man (cf. #2Th 2:16; Ro 5:8; Eph 2:4). In #Jo 21:15 John presents a distinction between αγαπαω and φιλεω. αγαπαω is used also for love of men for men (#13:34), for Jesus (#8:42), for God (#1Jo 4:10). The world (τον κοσμον). The whole cosmos of men, including Gentiles, the whole human race. This universal aspect of God’s love appears also in #2Co 5:19; Ro 5:8. That he gave (ωστε εδωκεν). The usual classical construction with ωστε and the indicative (first aorist active) practical result, the only example in the N.T. save that in #Ga 2:13. Elsewhere ωστε with the infinitive occurs for actual result (#Mt 13:32) as well as purpose (#Mt 10:1), though even this is rare. His only begotten Son (τον υιον τον μονογενη). "The Son the only begotten." For this word see on #1:14,18; 3:18. The rest of the sentence, the purpose clause with ινα-εχη precisely reproduces the close of #3:15 save that εις αυτον takes the place of εν αυτω (see #1:12) and goes certainly with πιστευων (not with εχη as εν αυτω in verse #Jo 3:15) and the added clause "should not perish but" (μη αποληται αλλα, second aorist middle subjunctive, intransitive, of απολλυμι, to destroy). The same contrast between "perish" and "eternal life" (for this world and the next) appears also in #10:28. On "perish" see also #17:12. I would go with this, http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gtense.html#Present 7. Historical (Dramatic) Present The present tense may be used fairly frequently in narrative literature to portray a past event vividly, as though the reader were in the midst of the scene as it unfolds. [The category is frequently misunderstood; see Wallace for his discussions of exegetically significant examples.] Matt 26:40 He came to his disciples and found them sleeping, and he said ... Sleeping just happens to be present tense and is a particple just as believing is. Are they still sleeping now? God bless, Tony
  3. Hi Hawkins, That reminds me of this verse. Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. God bless, Tony
  4. Hi elhanan, You didn’t get the point so let’s move on, What is the difference in this verse? Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting <166> punishment: but the righteous into life eternal <166>. Are both forever or are both for a short period of time? It would be pretty inconsistent to make one forever and the other one for a period of time don’t you think? Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting <166> life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. What does He mean by life? Also where in the Bible is a unbeliever promised eternal life? Let me know when you get a chance? God bless, Tony
  5. You assume it is the wrong position and believe what you hold to be "true" yet you concede that the meaning of the verse is contested. Grammar is not as complicated as you believe. In many cases the meaning of a contested verse can be drawn from its immediate context. Examine the context two verses later in Jn 3:18. This verse is especially pertinent not only due to its contextual proximity to Jn 3:16 but because the word "believe" occurs 3 times in both negative and positive form and in the present and perfect tense. It demonstrates that one does not come under judgment as long as ongoing belief is present. If you want to continue this discussion, it would make for a good topic to start in another thread so as not to go off topic here. “The one who continues trusting [pisteuon, present participle] in him is not condemned; the one who does not continue trusting [same construction but with negative particle] is already condemned [perfect passive, is in a state of condemnation] because he has not believed with abiding results [pepisteuken, perfect tense, indicating permanent attitude of unbelief] in the name of the Son of God” (Light From the Greek New Testament, Anderson Press: Warner, IN, 1959, p. 105). Hi ehanan, That’s pretty funny. The one way that those who are wrong try to make themselves appear right is to use treachery. Basically they lie. Depending on how far gone they are they either reconcile their lying as necessary because they believe that they are right and evidently the end justifies the means or they don’t recognize that they are lying because they think that whatever they think is right because they think it. Of course there is varying degrees between the two extremes. A few days ago you believed that you could correctly translate John 3:16. I brought up some information that you were not aware of. Last night you still had not realized this so when I explained it to you became the expert again. You still do not get it. I will write it in simpler terms, First what does the verse say to you. Second what does the verse say to translators and grammarians. Third what does the verse say to those who have written commentaries. Forth what does the verse to everyone else. You have this obligation to do when you decide to teach others. Certainly you don’t want to lead people astray. Or do you? God bless, Tony
  6. HI Tony, Proof texting is taking a passage, removing it from it's context and saying, the Bibles says xyz. Every verse of Scriptures is part of a larger context. No verse stands alone. So whatever that verse means is determined by the context from which it is taken. When a person takes a verse of Scripture, removes it from it's context and attempts to prove something that passage is not dealing with they are proof texting. For instance The passage from 2 Cor 5. You guys insist that it proves that man has a spirit that lives on after death. Paul is talking about his mortal body and his future immortal body. In context he states that he's not looking to put of his body but rather to put on his immortal body. In the passage does says nothing about a spirit living on after death. So when one passage, "infers" from it something other than what Paul said and says the Bible says xyz, they are proof texting, because the passage is not addressing the subject to which they are applying it. Hi butch, I have taken nothing out of context you are just ignoring what is being said because it disagrees with your beliefs. Where do you your beliefs anyway? Watchtower? God bless, Tony Then show m where 2 Cor 5 is talking about a spirit that lives on after death or that people go to Heaven. Hi butch, Watchtower really? That’s got to be the worst. 2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Kind of different from the original creation of man. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: That new house will be a lot better, 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. Naked without our bodies. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. We don’t want our current body but we don’t want to be without a body so we desire the new body which is in heaven. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. God made our new body. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: while we are in our current body we are not with the Lord. 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. We would like to die and be present with the Lord. That about covers it. Absent from the body is the key. If we are just our bodies then how can that be? 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 ¶ For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 ¶ Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. God bless, Tony The key is that Paul doesn't what to be without the body. It's clear from his words that he expects to clothe his mortal body with his immortal body. He makes no mention at all about wanting to leave his body and be a spirit that lives on after death. The passage say nothing about being a spirit and living on after death. Seriously, you do realize this is an inference, right? It was the desire of the Greek and the Gnostics to escape the body and ascend into the Heavens. Hi butch, Ok I am tiring of your “yea hath God said” routine. God’s Word is true. 2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) So why don’t you show me some quotes from the early church fathers since you have indicated that is what you believe in them: that deny what the Bible has said about mankind having a spirit, soul, and body. Also don’t waste my time with paraphrasing but give me exact quotes and also give me exact locations as I have been giving you. God bless, Tony if anyone is wasting time it's not me. I've shown the Scriptures. If want to talk about denying the Scriptures you might want to consider what you're saying. Scripture says the dead know nothing. You say the are conscious spirits. I'll go with Scripture. hi butch, now your denying that you deny the Scriptures? perhaps you are doing it without knowing it. perhaps, God bless, Tony
  7. HI Tony, Proof texting is taking a passage, removing it from it's context and saying, the Bibles says xyz. Every verse of Scriptures is part of a larger context. No verse stands alone. So whatever that verse means is determined by the context from which it is taken. When a person takes a verse of Scripture, removes it from it's context and attempts to prove something that passage is not dealing with they are proof texting. For instance The passage from 2 Cor 5. You guys insist that it proves that man has a spirit that lives on after death. Paul is talking about his mortal body and his future immortal body. In context he states that he's not looking to put of his body but rather to put on his immortal body. In the passage does says nothing about a spirit living on after death. So when one passage, "infers" from it something other than what Paul said and says the Bible says xyz, they are proof texting, because the passage is not addressing the subject to which they are applying it. Hi butch, I have taken nothing out of context you are just ignoring what is being said because it disagrees with your beliefs. Where do you your beliefs anyway? Watchtower? God bless, Tony Then show m where 2 Cor 5 is talking about a spirit that lives on after death or that people go to Heaven. Hi butch, Watchtower really? That’s got to be the worst. 2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Kind of different from the original creation of man. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: That new house will be a lot better, 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. Naked without our bodies. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. We don’t want our current body but we don’t want to be without a body so we desire the new body which is in heaven. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. God made our new body. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: while we are in our current body we are not with the Lord. 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. We would like to die and be present with the Lord. That about covers it. Absent from the body is the key. If we are just our bodies then how can that be? 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 ¶ For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 ¶ Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. God bless, Tony The key is that Paul doesn't what to be without the body. It's clear from his words that he expects to clothe his mortal body with his immortal body. He makes no mention at all about wanting to leave his body and be a spirit that lives on after death. The passage say nothing about being a spirit and living on after death. Seriously, you do realize this is an inference, right? It was the desire of the Greek and the Gnostics to escape the body and ascend into the Heavens. Hi butch, Ok I am tiring of your “yea hath God said” routine. God’s Word is true. 2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) So why don’t you show me some quotes from the early church fathers since you have indicated that is what you believe in them: that deny what the Bible has said about mankind having a spirit, soul, and body. Also don’t waste my time with paraphrasing but give me exact quotes and also give me exact locations as I have been giving you. God bless, Tony
  8. I read the links but quite frankly the reason I asked you to explain in your own words is although these references distinguish between different tenses, voices etc., how is one supposed to know which ones to apply in order to correctly parse pisteuon in John 3:16? Do you know how as I am always open learning new things? If I understand you correctly, you are claiming that pisteuon cannot be translated as believing so please elaborate why not, as you have quoted scripture and parsing references but have not personally applied them specifically to Jn 3:16 in order to complete your argument. The link you provided to onelight is a good article but even that article cites a difference of opinion amongst scholars. Hi elhanan, you showed my point exactly. how would you or i know? my advise to you is that the next time you want to correct what the translations say that you better bring some gramarians with you. grammer is quite complicated. i apoligize for being so abrupt with you as i actually like the way you present your case. but it is harder to win if you take the wrong position. not imposible but definitly harder. God bless, Tony
  9. HI Tony, Proof texting is taking a passage, removing it from it's context and saying, the Bibles says xyz. Every verse of Scriptures is part of a larger context. No verse stands alone. So whatever that verse means is determined by the context from which it is taken. When a person takes a verse of Scripture, removes it from it's context and attempts to prove something that passage is not dealing with they are proof texting. For instance The passage from 2 Cor 5. You guys insist that it proves that man has a spirit that lives on after death. Paul is talking about his mortal body and his future immortal body. In context he states that he's not looking to put of his body but rather to put on his immortal body. In the passage does says nothing about a spirit living on after death. So when one passage, "infers" from it something other than what Paul said and says the Bible says xyz, they are proof texting, because the passage is not addressing the subject to which they are applying it. Hi butch, I have taken nothing out of context you are just ignoring what is being said because it disagrees with your beliefs. Where do you your beliefs anyway? Watchtower? God bless, Tony Then show m where 2 Cor 5 is talking about a spirit that lives on after death or that people go to Heaven. Hi butch, Watchtower really? That’s got to be the worst. 2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Kind of different from the original creation of man. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: That new house will be a lot better, 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. Naked without our bodies. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. We don’t want our current body but we don’t want to be without a body so we desire the new body which is in heaven. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. God made our new body. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: while we are in our current body we are not with the Lord. 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. We would like to die and be present with the Lord. That about covers it. Absent from the body is the key. If we are just our bodies then how can that be? 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 ¶ For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 ¶ Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. God bless, Tony
  10. HI Tony, Proof texting is taking a passage, removing it from it's context and saying, the Bibles says xyz. Every verse of Scriptures is part of a larger context. No verse stands alone. So whatever that verse means is determined by the context from which it is taken. When a person takes a verse of Scripture, removes it from it's context and attempts to prove something that passage is not dealing with they are proof texting. For instance The passage from 2 Cor 5. You guys insist that it proves that man has a spirit that lives on after death. Paul is talking about his mortal body and his future immortal body. In context he states that he's not looking to put of his body but rather to put on his immortal body. In the passage does says nothing about a spirit living on after death. So when one passage, "infers" from it something other than what Paul said and says the Bible says xyz, they are proof texting, because the passage is not addressing the subject to which they are applying it. Hi butch, I have taken nothing out of context you are just ignoring what is being said because it disagrees with your beliefs. Where do you your beliefs anyway? Watchtower? God bless, Tony
  11. Wow, that's pretty amazing since no one has presented anything that teaches one has a spirit that lives on after death or that one goes to Heaven when they die. What I've said is plainly stated in the Scriptures yet the counter argument is from inference. You spoke about seeking the truth. I've been doing so for some years now. The includes going back to the source and rejecting the teachings of men. The idea of ascending into the heavens is from Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. he apostle John called the Gnostics antichrist. If one is searching for truth then they'll accept whatever the Scriptures say, not try to counter them with inferences. Instead of putting forth inferences why not look at the Scriptures that I have presented in humility and be willing to change one's doctrine when it doesn't align with the Scriptures? Think about this. According to most Christians the ultimate goal in life is to spend eternity in Heaven with the Lord. If this was the teaching of Scripture don't you think it would have at least been mentioned "one" time , even if just in passing? There is not a single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die or that man has a spirit (other than God's) that lives on after death. Do you really believe that God would give all of the Bible and leave the most important part to inference? Hi butch, I think the key is that we will ever be with the Lord. I think that we will come back to earth so spending eternity in heaven would not be correct. 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Re 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. God bless, Tony
  12. Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Actually it says whom, not what. “Whom” is a pronoun. Foreknow? Ac 26:5 Which knew <4267> me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow <4267>, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Ro 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew <4267>. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained <4267> before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before <4267>, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Saying that the verse is is teaching God knew who would choose His Son is a bit of a stretch. God bless, Tony
  13. Hi onelight, Facts are what give us assurance that we are indeed listening to the Holy Spirit just as works are our assurance that we have faith. Do you really think that all the Bible translators in the translations that I provided before were not listening to the Holy Spirit and only that you do which enables you to translate this verse properly? That’s nice. God bless, Tony
  14. No, that would certainly be an overly broad generalization. I'll give you an example using a well-known verse - John 3:16. This verse contains the word pisteuon which most Bibles translate as "believe." However the verb pisteuon is a present active participle and should be properly translated as "believing." Therefore the relevant part of this verse should read everyone believing in Him may not perish but may have eternal [age-abiding] life. Thus, what this means for us is that ongoing, continuous belief is necessary for salvation - not just a one-time moment of belief in the past. Here is a prime example where a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. While it is a good thing to help in the understanding of certain passages, in some people it serves to distort the meanings of others. Actually, the Greek states: houtos gar egapesen ho theos ton kasmon hoste ton huion abtou ton monogene edoken hina pas ho pisteuon eis auton me apoletal all eche zoen aionion. thus for loves the God the system as-besides the Son of-Him the only-generated He-gives that every the one-believing into Him no should-be-being-destroyed but may-be-having life eonian. What he states scripture reads is true. How the truth is applied is what we should be concerned with. One believing is a continuous action. Stop the action and the blessing also stops. Hi onelight, Thanks for your input but the point was the difference between how he was interpreting the verses in Matthew compared to how he was interpreting the verses in John and how he came to his conclusions. So how did you come to your conclusion that it is believing, instead of believes? Let me know when you get a chance, God bless, Tony Easy, it is how it was written in the Greek. The word is pisteuon - G4100. How it is written means with the accusative of person meaning to believe and rest upon. So it is not singular event, but a continuous event, always believing, always leaning, always resting upon, always following Jesus. If Christ meant that all one needs to be is believe just for one second, then scripture would never say we need to run the race, take up our cross daily, and many other passages to means to continue in Him, growing. hi onelight, if only it was so simple as that. here is a link that discusses some of the problems with choosing either one. http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/5401/in-john-316-is-the-word-believe-a-continous-action-for-everlasting-life i'm sure if you do a search you will find many more. God bless, Tony
  15. Hi butch, I don’t know who gave you that line of “proof texting” or if you made that up by yourself. But you do realize the Word of God is true each and every Word even though it seems to me that you do use that term to try to ignore verses of your choosing. Ps 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Pr 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. God bless, Tony
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