Ephesians2-8

The point God was making was not for men to make themselves appear feminine. In ancient times male prostitution was an act of worship to pagan gods and men who served in that capacity who were homosexual would make themselves appear femine to attract and seduce other male worshippers. There was a much bigger picture than just wearing a type of garment. Even in biblical times women and men wore "breeches" under their robes. Breeches were similar o pants but would keep one's privates well hidden if the wind caught your robe the wrong way. Honestly, this is why I hate religion. Shiloh -- The specific religion was Babylonian, the mystery religion of the goddess Ishtar who had both male and female priestesses serve her temple as harlots/whores who they considered to be holy and pure, and who during a religious sex rite of worship with a worshiper (either male or female) would become 'one with the goddess' and thus the goddess became 'one with the worshipper' in order for the worshipper's sins to be forgiven and purified by sexual secretions. Ishtar's religion invented homosexuality as a means of attaining salvation as also heterosexual union as well... holy sex -- sex by salvation and or salvation by 'works.' Afterwords, the worshipper would give a thanksgiving offering by putting a gold or silver coin or coins into the temple's collection box before leaving. Ishtar's temple invented the concept of money, banking on loans for interest. Her harlot-whore priestesses and the thanksgiving offering was the very first instance of prostitution. Prostitution as we know it today, did not exist in ancient Babylon nor any other of the ancient cultures. There was no need for it -- the Ishtar Temple took care of that problem. The prohibitions about men dressing feminine in scripture was to not be mistaken for being an Ishtar devotee. The abomination was Ishtar's religion not a matter of dress, per se for either gender, man or woman. Ditto for the idea of fornication and adultery -- the abominations were when associated with the Ishtar religion. Oh, Shiloh- you're in good company about hating religion -- God also hates religion - See Isaiah 64 6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;" The Hebrew word "Filthy Rags" is the word for used, smells-to-high-heaven" menstrual cloth -- and this is what God thinks of our righteousnesses or our good deeds, or our religious deeds. Imagine what he thinks of our sins. Yup, God hates religion and religion is defined as anything that requires us to 'act a certain way, be a certain way' and by what we do, gain brownie points with God. That is religion. And that negates grace, evertime, as Paul so eloquently stated in Romans and later in Galatians. I really enjoyed reading your reply. Thanks for educating me. Willow325 Thank you - glad to be of help

There are skilled linguists and Hebrew scholars who will debate you on the term "rosh" - as a term meaning a rank of title as in "general" or "admiral" or in this case "Chief prince" or implied "chief of princes." In other words, the term does not refer to a geographical location. Also this understanding makes greater sense, logically from the grammatical perspective. The other often misapplied terms of "meshech" and "tubal" being referenced to Moscow and Tobalsk are also an even greater linguistical stretch. According to most anthropologists and archaeologists, Meschech and Tubal were located in Turkey. To claim that it must be Russia - because Russia is supplying Syria and Iran weapons -- well, So is the USA. In fact, the USA has heavily supplied Turkey and the better part of the Iranian air force is made up of US jet fighters - F-14's and F-4 Phantoms not to forget US tanks and a British destroyer as I recall. Much of Iran's weaponry in missiles and ground components coming from either China or North Korea. Under your logic - that should make them also equal candidates, not to forget the USA. Prior to 1945, most prophecy scholars believed that Magog and Meschech, Tubal, etc were Turkey. Russia or the Soviet Union was not even considered a possibility. The idea that Gomer is Germany is also a reallllll stretch linguistically also. Again, Gomer originally falls back to a portion of Turkey and Armenia. I'm not dogmatically opposed to the idea of Russia as being in on this, but the claims cited for Russia as Magog are IMHO, very , very weak.

So are you saying that New york is the BAbyon mentioned in Rev 17 or is it that BAbylon will be restored and destroyed again? Actually, New York can't be the Babylon of the future, although a part of it - because Jeremiah notes specifically that Babylon is a nation - a super-power nation - with the goddess Ishtar being the guardian angel or spirit of that nation. We see precedence for this in Daniel chapter 10 where Gabriel comes to Daniel and explains that Gabriel had been dispatched with a message for Daniel from God, but that he, Gabriel had been "bush-whacked" or "ambushed" - the original Hebrew carries the concept of a military attack - by the "sar" of Persia - and the attack "pinned down" Gabriel for 21 days until the archangel Michael came and "unpinned" him so he could continue with his mission to give Daniel a message. Gabriel then gives the message and says to Daniel that he, Gabriel must now go and fight the "sar" who is coming - the "Sar of Greece." This indicates that not only is there angelic warfare, but certain angels are assigned as guardians and or manipulators of certain nations to influence and or manipulate human national leaders to do the will and or bidding of Satan. We see this again in Ephesians 6:12 where the various ranks of authority in the angelic realm are outlined -- one of which is the Greek term "Kosmo-krator" = world ruler and of a 'dark world.' So that - Revelation 17 indicates the woman is the guarding demonic/angelic entity overseeing a future super-power nation code-named "Babylon." This angelic entity has a close association with the super-power nation. The angelic entity in Revelation 17 was the same one who guarded ancient Babylon - known as Ishtar or Inanna - the goddess of Liberty/Freedom and also known as "MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS." Note that Washington, D.C. is her home base, so to speak - with her statue atop the US Capitol Dome and the founding fathers originally naming the US Capitol Building as "The Temple of the goddess of Liberty" - shortening it to "Temple of Liberty" with a statue of Baal standing guard at the entrance wearing a Roman centurian's armor outfit. Ishtar's brother, Utu, had a temple in Babylonian called "The White House." -- According to secular art historian, David Ovason -in his book "The Secret Architecture of Our Nation's Capital" - he indicates that the entire city of Washington, D.C. is an open air temple dedicated to this goddess because she is the guardian spirit of the nation. There are dozens of esoteric art pieces - horoscopes, astrological signals pointing to her - as Isis or Venus or Libertas or Aphrodite or Ishtar - all names for this singular spirit guardian. The city street grid is laid out so that it honors her on the first day of spring and first day of fall every year as Constitution Avenue lines up with her star "The Dog Star- Sirius" in the constellation Virgo - and the Obelisk - the Washington Monument aligns precisely with the sun on the Summer Solstice to precisely split the light of the sun of the sun-god Utu (brother of Ishtar) into equal thirds to provide occult enlightenment of which one third falls onto the Capitol building to enlighten the Legislative branch, another third onto the Supreme Court Bldg to enlighten the Judicial branch and another third onto the White House to enlighten the Executive branch of government. The obelisk being an occult device associated with both Egypt and Babylon and Isis and Ishtar (both one and the same entity). Ancient Babylon does not match the descriptive prophecies for a future Babylon, because among other things, the land of ancient Babylonia and Babylon were promised as part of the Abrahamic covenant in the Millennial Kingdom. Future Babylon will be destroyed, uninhabited and at the bottom of the ocean as a sea bed... and thus if Iraq's Babylon was the future Babylon then it couldn't also fulfill God's promises to Abraham and the Messianic Kingdom which included Babylon and much of present day Iraq. That's just one of 60 reasons why Iraq and ancient Babylon cannot be the Babylon of Revelation 17/18.

By no stretch of the imagination. Jeremiah 50:1 says, "The word that the Lord spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:..."(emphasis added). Jeremiah prophesied between 627 and 586 BC and his ministry was to Judah. There is no rational basis to suppose that Jeremiah was thinking about the United States. His word from God was for the people of his time; to assume otherwise is to abuse the text. Rufus I went over this in a different thread regarding Jeremiah 30 and 31 but it seems that with your posting here the record again needs to be set straight. Jeremiah 50 and 51 is replete with Hebrew Messianic Idioms referencing the fact that the oracle of Babylon is a reference to the time just before the Coming of Messiah to set up the Millennial Kingdom. 50: 2 -- "Declare ye among the nations" -- is a special Hebrew Messianic idiom...followed by a second one right after that... 50:2 -- "and publish" -- 50:2 ---"set up a standard" -- These 3 idioms abbreviated as they are refer to one Messianic ordinance - the requirement that the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel must meet and escort the Messiah through the Messianic gate into Jerusalem. In order to accomplish this requirement, the Jews set up an elaborate signaling/communications system using "flagmen" set on the top of the hills surrounding Israel. These flagmen had special flags or banners (KJV - "standard") - There was a special flag or banner or "standard" that was reserved for the Messiah. When it was waved by a flag man, it meant, the Messiah had been spotted approaching Israel. The flagmen on adjacent hill tops would see the Messiah's banner being waved and they in turn would wave their own Messiah flag or banner to signal to the next hilltop post further down the chain that the Messiah was coming. This created a chain reaction across the entire flagpost network across Israel, so that the Tribal elders could be notified in advance and make haste for Jerusalem in order to greet and escort the Messiah into Jerusalem and thus fulfill the Messianic prophecies. Now, the Prophets, in order to conserve on space and ink, abbreviated this concept into 'idioms" and often times further abbreviated the idioms... such as -- "gevlai shel Meschiach" - or in English = "The Banner of the Messiah" abbreviated to "the banner" or "waving of the banner" or in the KJV "Publish" as a totally abbreviated idiomatic reference to the above flag signalling system. Also, as part of that alert system. A Messianic shout would be given or "Delcared" -- So that in verse 2 we 3 distinct Messianic idioms indicating that the entire oracle is set in the time frame of the coming of the Messiah and the fact that we have triple repetition is indicative of the absoluteness of the time frame. In other words, God is making it crystal clear that what follows in the description will take place in the time frame of the coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic, Millennial Kingdom. So right off the bat in Verse 2, after the announcment that chapter 50 was a prophecy concerning Babylon we have the triple Messianic idiom references -- indicating that what is to follow is describing events that will occur at the time of the Coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic Kingdom. In verse 4 and again in verse 20, the same Hebrew Messianic idiom is repeated - "In those days and in that time" In chapter 51: verse 12 " Set up the standard" - the abbreviation for "gevlai shel Meshiach" the specific Messianic idiom. In Chapter 51: verse 27, "Set up the standtard" -- again the same abbreviated Hebrew Messianic idiom. And yet one more Messianic idiom - in verse 52 -- "Behold the days come" -- the days of the Coming of Messiah. Furthermore -- Isaiah also does that same thing with his oracle against Babylon... Isaiah 13 - verse 2 = "Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain" -- here again the Hebrew Messianic idiom - "gevlais shel Meshiach." and then he further states to confirm this Messianic idiom - "exalt the voice unto them".... "shake the hand" [greeting the Messiah] ..."that they may go into the "gates of the nobles" - a reference to the Tribal elders greeting the Messiah and escorting him through the gates into Jerusalem. Verse 6 -- "For the Day of the Lord is near" -- another Messianic idiom without abbreviation... and note that day is "near" when Babylon is judged by a fiery judgment. Verse 8 ... "as a woman in travail" -- again another Messianic reference - see also Jesus' Olivet Discourse on the same idiom. Verse 9 "Bhold, the Day of the Lord" - again same Messianic reference. Both Isaiah and Jeremiah speak of a future Babylon, a super-power nation with the character traits of ancient Babylon which shall be destroyed in a special Divine judgment just before the coming of Messiah. Both prophets are writing about the same Babylon as found in Revelation 17 and 18. All of these prophecies speak to a single, solitary nation of the end-times before the Messianic Kingdom is established. It should be stated that neither prophecy was fulfilled in 539 B.C. Persia's conquest of Babylon occured without a shot being fired. The city was not destroyed at all, and was not burned with fire in one day, neither were her cities (plural) destroyed by fire and neither did Babylon or Babylonia sink forever beneath the ocean waves nor did the sea come up over her... Jeremiah 51: 42, 55, 64. Neither did she become like Sodom and Gomorrah, never to be inhabited again nor even found. No scholar in their right mind, claims to think that Jeremiah and Isaiah's predictions were fulfilled according to the writtend descriptions of Jeremiah and Isaiah. Two of the biggest problems in understanding the Old Testament prophets are the historical distance and the fact that the prophets wrote/spoke a large part of their work poetically. Because the vast majority of us are inexperienced or unpracticed in exegeting the prophets, this can lead to all kinds of wild theories and speculation that have no basis in fact. Any interpretation of what the prophets were saying has to be grounded in an understanding of the Mosaic covenant, specifically the passages in Deuteronomy 4 and Deuteronomy 25-30, where Moses records the blessings, curses and penalties for keeping and breaking the covenant. The prophets' job was to remind Israel of who they were and who they belonged to; it was not to hide esoteric clues about the end of the world that were not to be understood until thousands of years later. It is human nature to want to be in the know.However, God doesn't operate that way. He doesn't hide things in the text for thousands of years and then suddenly reveal them to you and me. None of the Bible was written personally to anyone in our day. That's not to say we can't find direction and meaning in the scripture. But, because we, in our time, want to see something new and exciting and fresh and different, because we want so desperately to be taken seriously as God's children, the line between the inspired writers and the illumined readers gets blurred and we wind up spending a disproportionate amount of time parsing out dubious meanings from obscure passages that have nothing to do with what we want them to say. We want this answer from this passage now. I'm afraid that what passes for scholarship and prophetic utterance, especially in charismatic circles, is simply nothing more than a grand exercise in self-deception. The most extreme example that I can think of is the post that was here some months ago about how the Bible predicted the events of 9/11/2001. To Rufus, You didn't bother to address the numerous Messianic idioms which these prophets used - Isaiah and Jeremiah indicating that the particular passages in question were intended for a far future time - when the conquering Messiah would come. Just what does "Day of the Lord" refer to if not the time of the coming of Messiah?????????? Just what does the term "Banner of the Messiah" -- "gevlai shel Meschiach" and its associated abbreviations refer to if not to the time of the coming of Messiah??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? There are 3 separate abbreviated variations of that idiom in Jeremiah 50:2 which kicks off The Oracle of Babylon's future judgment - the description of which - was never ever fulfilled - not even close ... in 539 B.C. by Cyrus. Even Rabbinical sources at the time of Ezra point out that Jeremiah and Isaiah's prophecies, as well as Daniel's prophecies had yet to be fulfilled and were intended for the time of the Day of the Lord - a particularly Messianic Metaphor/idiom. Rufus - you have no clue about properly using Biblical Hermeneutics, as evidenced by your statements denying these Hebrew idioms. As for Apocalyptic literature being "poetic" - the main function of Hebrew poetry was repetition to drive home a point, not simply to be artistic. Hebrew poetry was not about phonetic rhyme of sounds. Your comments indicate a narrow, very biased interpretation based upon erroneous presuppositions which are contradicted by the use of the Messianic idioms.

The city sits on 7 mountains or hills and controls 7 kings.. and Babylon had been the code name for Rome since the time of the apostles.. 1Pe 5:13 She that is in Babylon, elect together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Mark my son. 1Pe 5:14 Salute one another with a kiss of love. Peace be unto you all that are in Christ. So Babylon has to be Rome..

There are a few books published advocating the notion that this Babylon of prophecy is the United States. The most prominent book out there is - "America, The Babylon" - volumes 1 and 2 - about 600 pages - by R.A. Coombes. Dr. Mark Hitchcock, a professor at Dallas Seminary noted in his book "Is America in Bible Prophecy" notes that Coombes' work on the subject is the most definitive work to date advocating the theory that America is the Babylon of prophecy. Coombes' work has been hailed by several conservative Seminary professors, such as Dr. Fred Fogle and Dr. John Stohl of Grace Theological Seminary. Coombes' work is not alone - Peter Goodgame in "Red Moon Rising" also goes to some length on the subject, and there are other, lesser works out there - but none as scholarly nor as extensive as "America, The Babylon." Coombes' also has written other short books on the Babylon subject: "The Mystery Babylon Debate Handbook" "Mystery Babylon: Myths & Errors of Interpretation" Both of the above are FREE E-book downloads you can get by going to this link: http://www.aoreport.com/mag/index.php?opti...9&Itemid=67 "America, The Babylon" - the book website is here: http://americathebabylon.com/ Peter Goodgame's book - Red Moon Rising is also good - you can get more details on it at http://www.redmoonrising.com/ Oh, Coombes' books - "America, The Babylon" Volume 1 goes heavily into the Hebrew and Greek textual analysis and includes grammatical analysis as well as lexical analysis and includes Strong's code number links to readers can verify his assertions for themselves. Volume 2 is primarily empirical proofs of America's Babylonian connections with hundreds of internet webpage links, some of which should raise the hair on the back of your neck. Also he includes chapters on why Babylon cannot be the Roman Catholic Church or Rome and another on why Iraq or ancient Babylon cannot be the future Babylon. He also notes in another chapter all the reasons why Babylon cannot be New York City or any other city and why it must be a nation - based upon the original Greek texts plus the descriptions of Isaiah, Jeremiah and John. All of this is why many who've read this book consider it to be "the definitive work" on the subject.

By no stretch of the imagination. Jeremiah 50:1 says, "The word that the Lord spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:..."(emphasis added). Jeremiah prophesied between 627 and 586 BC and his ministry was to Judah. There is no rational basis to suppose that Jeremiah was thinking about the United States. His word from God was for the people of his time; to assume otherwise is to abuse the text. Rufus I went over this in a different thread regarding Jeremiah 30 and 31 but it seems that with your posting here the record again needs to be set straight. Jeremiah 50 and 51 is replete with Hebrew Messianic Idioms referencing the fact that the oracle of Babylon is a reference to the time just before the Coming of Messiah to set up the Millennial Kingdom. 50: 2 -- "Declare ye among the nations" -- is a special Hebrew Messianic idiom...followed by a second one right after that... 50:2 -- "and publish" -- 50:2 ---"set up a standard" -- These 3 idioms abbreviated as they are refer to one Messianic ordinance - the requirement that the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel must meet and escort the Messiah through the Messianic gate into Jerusalem. In order to accomplish this requirement, the Jews set up an elaborate signaling/communications system using "flagmen" set on the top of the hills surrounding Israel. These flagmen had special flags or banners (KJV - "standard") - There was a special flag or banner or "standard" that was reserved for the Messiah. When it was waved by a flag man, it meant, the Messiah had been spotted approaching Israel. The flagmen on adjacent hill tops would see the Messiah's banner being waved and they in turn would wave their own Messiah flag or banner to signal to the next hilltop post further down the chain that the Messiah was coming. This created a chain reaction across the entire flagpost network across Israel, so that the Tribal elders could be notified in advance and make haste for Jerusalem in order to greet and escort the Messiah into Jerusalem and thus fulfill the Messianic prophecies. Now, the Prophets, in order to conserve on space and ink, abbreviated this concept into 'idioms" and often times further abbreviated the idioms... such as -- "gevlai shel Meschiach" - or in English = "The Banner of the Messiah" abbreviated to "the banner" or "waving of the banner" or in the KJV "Publish" as a totally abbreviated idiomatic reference to the above flag signalling system. Also, as part of that alert system. A Messianic shout would be given or "Delcared" -- So that in verse 2 we 3 distinct Messianic idioms indicating that the entire oracle is set in the time frame of the coming of the Messiah and the fact that we have triple repetition is indicative of the absoluteness of the time frame. In other words, God is making it crystal clear that what follows in the description will take place in the time frame of the coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic, Millennial Kingdom. So right off the bat in Verse 2, after the announcment that chapter 50 was a prophecy concerning Babylon we have the triple Messianic idiom references -- indicating that what is to follow is describing events that will occur at the time of the Coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic Kingdom. In verse 4 and again in verse 20, the same Hebrew Messianic idiom is repeated - "In those days and in that time" In chapter 51: verse 12 " Set up the standard" - the abbreviation for "gevlai shel Meshiach" the specific Messianic idiom. In Chapter 51: verse 27, "Set up the standtard" -- again the same abbreviated Hebrew Messianic idiom. And yet one more Messianic idiom - in verse 52 -- "Behold the days come" -- the days of the Coming of Messiah. Furthermore -- Isaiah also does that same thing with his oracle against Babylon... Isaiah 13 - verse 2 = "Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain" -- here again the Hebrew Messianic idiom - "gevlais shel Meshiach." and then he further states to confirm this Messianic idiom - "exalt the voice unto them".... "shake the hand" [greeting the Messiah] ..."that they may go into the "gates of the nobles" - a reference to the Tribal elders greeting the Messiah and escorting him through the gates into Jerusalem. Verse 6 -- "For the Day of the Lord is near" -- another Messianic idiom without abbreviation... and note that day is "near" when Babylon is judged by a fiery judgment. Verse 8 ... "as a woman in travail" -- again another Messianic reference - see also Jesus' Olivet Discourse on the same idiom. Verse 9 "Bhold, the Day of the Lord" - again same Messianic reference. Both Isaiah and Jeremiah speak of a future Babylon, a super-power nation with the character traits of ancient Babylon which shall be destroyed in a special Divine judgment just before the coming of Messiah. Both prophets are writing about the same Babylon as found in Revelation 17 and 18. All of these prophecies speak to a single, solitary nation of the end-times before the Messianic Kingdom is established. It should be stated that neither prophecy was fulfilled in 539 B.C. Persia's conquest of Babylon occured without a shot being fired. The city was not destroyed at all, and was not burned with fire in one day, neither were her cities (plural) destroyed by fire and neither did Babylon or Babylonia sink forever beneath the ocean waves nor did the sea come up over her... Jeremiah 51: 42, 55, 64. Neither did she become like Sodom and Gomorrah, never to be inhabited again nor even found. No scholar in their right mind, claims to think that Jeremiah and Isaiah's predictions were fulfilled according to the writtend descriptions of Jeremiah and Isaiah.

Anyone else here ever notice how controversial the subject of Mystery Babylon is on discussion forums? Ever notice how often people make false statements and misrepresent the facts on that subject? I just came across a very good commentary on common errors and misunderstandings concerning the controversial subject of "Mystery Babylon." It is a Free E-book entitled "Mystery Babylon: Myths and Errors of Interpetation" by R.A. Coombes. He also has another Free E-book for download entitled "The Mystery Babylon Debate Handbook" which looks at all the various identity theories for the subject of Mystery Babylon and points out the strengths and weaknesses of each theory. I particularly find interesting the fact that one error is in referring to the subject as "Mystery Babylon" as opposed to merely Babylon... the author makes a point of noting why the term "Mystery Babylon" is wrong and provides extensive grammatical documentation to back it up. Another one I find interesting is that Dave Hunt and others refer to the woman of Revelation 17 as riding the beast, but as Coombes' points out, nowhere in scripture does it say the woman "rides" the beast or that the beast is even moving. Instead she is simply "sitting" on the beast. It might seem like a fine point of hair splitting but it may have enormous implications in the interpretation. So much of what this guy writes seems to be eye-popping and perhaps unbelievable at first, but he backs up everything with extensive documentation especially on the subject of Babylon. Also his FREE E-book commentaries on First and Second Thessalonians are an equally a great resource for Bible studies. Here is a link to the page for the free e-book downloads and no, there is no catch they're totally free. http://www.aoreport.com/mag/index.php?opti...9&Itemid=67 You may also want to catch his entire Prophecy News and Studies website too - http://www.aoreport.com Have you come across other myths and errors concerning the subject of "Mystery Babylon?" If so, take a moment to share.

I would heartily concur with you.

I agree. MAny times in the writings of the prophet, the term in that day or The day of the Lord or the day of the Lor'd vengence refer to the end times. However, an appeal to grammar does not justify making a quantum leap to the conclusion that Jeremiah, et. al. were making esoteric predictions about events that were to take place thousands of years in their future. Their concern was more immediate, i.e. decades, not millenia. Their concern was enforcing the covenant among the people of their time. Rufus - the rules of hermeneutics require grammatical understanding and recognition whether the hermeneutical principles pertain to Biblical writings or in modern day contractual law. There is no, repeat NO quantum leap in Jeremiah 30:7-8 or any of the other verses in that chapter. The prophets used Hebrew Messianic idioms extensively. You apparently have no understanding of the Mishnah or the Midrash nor the long traditional of rebbinical analysis of the prophet's writings or you'd know better than to make such a statement as you've made. Furthermore ... Jeremiah 30:2 ... Jeremiah is told to write down what God had spoken to him. Jeremiah did not pick and choose only ideas that pertained to the near future. In fact, Jeremiah chose nothing of his own. He wrote down what he was told by God to write down. Now as for proving statements - prove your statement - "Their concern was more immediate, i.e. decades, not millenia. " Prove that statement- Prove it. I want factual documentation to validate your point. The fact of the matter is that you cannot because there can be no such documentation. You've jumped to conclusions based on erroneous presuppositions and misrepresentations of the facts. The facts are - the text is littered with Messianic idioms and statements that pertain to the time of the coming of Messiah, not mere decades. Rufus - why do I get the sense that you are nothing but a troll who takes great delight in debating and arguing for the sole purpose and delight of debating and arguing. Personally, I see no valid reason to continue discussing the matter with someone who clearly can not accept or understand valid hermeneutical principles.

Dear Brother, I need to celar up a point about the nature of prophecy esp those that foretell the fture like the book of Daniel ect.. Isn't it the nature of such prophecy that the person would not be able to understand the prophecy until the prophecy is fullfilled? For example Daniel foretold the kingdoms of Alexander well before the man came unto the scene of history, so theoretically the people at Daniel's time would have a lot of difficulty understanding what Daniel said.. Yes, you make an excellent point. Aside perhaps from Jonah, I'm hard pressed to think of any of the OT prophets who really understood their long-range prophecies, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel or Ezekiel in regards to their prophecies concerning the Day of the Lord time frame.

Rufus, To perhaps clarify the points about Jeremiah's references to the future. Both Jeremiah and Isaiah used Hebrew "Messianic idioms" - often times abbreviated to the point that the English translators simply could not properly translate the abbreviated idioms without making the English text excessively wordy and or grammatically incorrect. Often times, the Hebrew Messianic idiom, "the Day of the Lord" was written by its known abbreviation of that era, such as "that Day" being a reference to "The Day of the Lord" or to the day of the Banner of the Messiah, or "gevlai shel maschiach" or sometimes just simply - "gevlai" as in "wave" or "raise" the banner. Such abbreviated Messianic idioms were well known to the rabbis and various rabbinical commentators from the 2nd and 3rd century B.C. made notes of these abbreviations.

To Rufus I already outlined my reasons in the prior responses. As noted previously, even John himself, from the texts indicates that he lacks full understanding of what he saw and I pointed this out from the text. If John, didn't understand it all, then neither would his audience. Indeed, succeeding generations failed to come to terms with all that is written, in part because as the text itself notes, it is a "mystery" and this is especially true of the Babylon issue. The early church fathers also had a difficult time in understanding and interpreting John's Revelation. This is part of the reason why some questioned it's canonicity I would again encourage you to read the Charlesworth commentary. Enough said.

The point God was making was not for men to make themselves appear feminine. In ancient times male prostitution was an act of worship to pagan gods and men who served in that capacity who were homosexual would make themselves appear femine to attract and seduce other male worshippers. There was a much bigger picture than just wearing a type of garment. Even in biblical times women and men wore "breeches" under their robes. Breeches were similar o pants but would keep one's privates well hidden if the wind caught your robe the wrong way. Honestly, this is why I hate religion. Shiloh -- The specific religion was Babylonian, the mystery religion of the goddess Ishtar who had both male and female priestesses serve her temple as harlots/whores who they considered to be holy and pure, and who during a religious sex rite of worship with a worshiper (either male or female) would become 'one with the goddess' and thus the goddess became 'one with the worshipper' in order for the worshipper's sins to be forgiven and purified by sexual secretions. Ishtar's religion invented homosexuality as a means of attaining salvation as also heterosexual union as well... holy sex -- sex by salvation and or salvation by 'works.' Afterwords, the worshipper would give a thanksgiving offering by putting a gold or silver coin or coins into the temple's collection box before leaving. Ishtar's temple invented the concept of money, banking on loans for interest. Her harlot-whore priestesses and the thanksgiving offering was the very first instance of prostitution. Prostitution as we know it today, did not exist in ancient Babylon nor any other of the ancient cultures. There was no need for it -- the Ishtar Temple took care of that problem. The prohibitions about men dressing feminine in scripture was to not be mistaken for being an Ishtar devotee. The abomination was Ishtar's religion not a matter of dress, per se for either gender, man or woman. Ditto for the idea of fornication and adultery -- the abominations were when associated with the Ishtar religion. Oh, Shiloh- you're in good company about hating religion -- God also hates religion - See Isaiah 64 6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;" The Hebrew word "Filthy Rags" is the word for used, smells-to-high-heaven" menstrual cloth -- and this is what God thinks of our righteousnesses or our good deeds, or our religious deeds. Imagine what he thinks of our sins. Yup, God hates religion and religion is defined as anything that requires us to 'act a certain way, be a certain way' and by what we do, gain brownie points with God. That is religion. And that negates grace, evertime, as Paul so eloquently stated in Romans and later in Galatians.