TruthFirst

Are you saying, that if my perspective is correct, God is incapable of orchestrating events and influencing individuals so that in the end His prophecies are fulfilled? Would this be impossible for Him? Is dealing with billions of humans to taxing for Him? God did it with Pharaoh. God can hardened peoples hearts, influence decision, put thoughts in our mind, control circumstances, introduce new events, place people in authority, as long as God does not meddle with the decisions that affect ones eternal destiny, He can do what He wants. That is true Sovereignty. It is no problem for God to choose a Roman soldier with a penchant for gambling and promote Him to Captain, and arrange that His unit to be on watch the day of the crucifixion and place the thought in his mind to gamble for Jesus' garments. I hope you see how dangerous you are getting with your hypothetical. For God to "place the thought in his mind to gamble..." is basically painting God as one who tempts to sin, as long as it justifies the end, which violates the very principles you stated to Nebula in the last post. Even in your reply here, you are hedging your bets by allowing for God to put thoughts in the mind and influence decisions, as long as they do not "affect ones eternal destiny". Do you mean sin of any kind here?? God tempts no one, for certain. This is my whole point here, that your viewpoint has to have God guiding and manipulating the thoughts and actions of mostly sinful people in their sin-filled lives, yet never influence them in any way to actually sin in any specific way, lest He be tempting them. I just do not see how this works without God being a total puppet master and hyper-sovereign. Another difficulty I have is that you have no problem with omnipresence in a now time frame, in which God is personally knowing and interacting with billions of people at the same time continuously (this is true and mind-boggling, beyond our comprehension how God can keep all that straight in His consciousness at once), all the while holding all the molecules together in the universe, and maintaining all the forces of physics and interaction of matter and energy. This is accepted,. as entirely possible and normal for God, but timelessness is completely and utterly incomprehensible and impossible for Him. Placing God in a time frame, with Him subject to time and trapped in time (its not His invention or creation and He is actually subject to the movement of time....) carries its own set of limitations upon God and inherent problems, doesn't it?? In at least some sense, this makes Time a force and reality that is above and beyond even God, a context to which God is subject to it. I assume this poses no issue to you. We seem at an impass because we see eternity (timeless) completely differently. You see this as restricting and trapping God, but I see it as the only scenario where God is truly sovereign and NOT trapped in time and its verities. I respect your viewpoint, and obviously you have put much thought in it. I feel that God has helped me understand eternity (as far as I can at this point) by revelation and illumination, and have received prophetic words in the subject. This is comforting for me, but I obviously would not expect that to influence your understanding, as you have to hear from the Teacher yourself and not from me. Whatever we are both TRULY hearing from Holy Spirit would have to agree, so either one or both of our spiritual ears needs tuning here, but it is always good to dig deep and keep on asking, seeking, and knocking. Bless you brother, and I pray your book brings glory to Christ, Andy I assure you I'm certainly not trying to assert that God tempt us. I know full well that He cannot do that. But does that thought have any bearing on his salvation or eternal destiny if he is already a sinner. Don't answer that, because that is a whole different issue. And I just thought of that now, so I won't debate it. (this is true and mind-boggling, beyond our comprehension how God can keep all that straight in His consciousness at once) Mind-boggling for sure for us, yet once again I believe "a piece of cake " for Him. Eternity timeless I have no problem with eternity = timeless. I just believe God has a Past eternity, a present and a future eternity. As for my Book it has nothing to do about these discussion, it's all about Discipleship and the vision I received. It about explaining the fundamentals. For instance the message of Salvation through the story of the Wedding at Cana, Repentance while traveling with Jonah and the acronym that God showed me(Re=Recognize you're a sinner - Pen= Approach God with a Penitent heart, Tan= Tangible change of heart, - Ce= Ceasing all sin and righteousness), Obedience with Joshua and Jericho, The correct interpretation of Mat. 7:7 (which is the Title of the book), Chap. 8 is about the 7 gifts of Romans 12 which everyone have. If you wish to share your address privately I will send you a free copy. Cheers to you Brother.

First of all we are all trying to understand God in a human way. That stands to reason we are human. So repeating that doesn't serve any purpose. When I say that there was a point in God's existence when He was all alone, this has nothing to do with our time. This would be God's eternal past. However their came a point in the existence of the Godhead that they chose to discuss and eventually create living beings. How long this discussion went on we have no idea, they could have debated it for a 1000 years which in eternity means nothing. When the decision was made to create angels this became point in God's eternal timeline. Eventually God did create angelic beings and this became another point, another milestone in their existence. It was an important one because not only were they not alone anymore, they now had to accommodate, make room for, all these creatures. That is also no big deal because God is infinite. Having just said that, do you not see a succession of events in the eternity of God's existence. Look at it from another angle. In eternity past God was a Triune Spirit today He is He is the same, however the Son is clothed in a Glorified body that is eternal. Both these scenarios, which are realities for God and us, suggest that God does have a past, present and future. WAS, IS, and IS TO COME.

Are you saying, that if my perspective is correct, God is incapable of orchestrating events and influencing individuals so that in the end His prophecies are fulfilled? Would this be impossible for Him? Is dealing with billions of humans to taxing for Him? God did it with Pharaoh. God can hardened peoples hearts, influence decision, put thoughts in our mind, control circumstances, introduce new events, place people in authority, as long as God does not meddle with the decisions that affect ones eternal destiny, He can do what He wants. That is true Sovereignty. It is no problem for God to choose a Roman soldier with a penchant for gambling and promote Him to Captain, and arrange that His unit to be on watch the day of the crucifixion and place the thought in his mind to gamble for Jesus' garments.

TF, I have been contemplating your line of reasoning, and it just doesn't settle right. What I see here is that you are trying to philosophize the nature of God. But finding truth through philosophy can lead to deception, even though it sounds good. After all, one can justifiably philosophize that their very own existence is an illusion! But I have to reject the premise of your line of reasoning because you are treating "time" by human understanding of time and restricting God to our realm of time. Such a belief places Time above God. Can you justify arguing God being bound to and/or subservient to Time? I dare not try to comprehend God's sovereignty and knowledge, for it indeed is a "great matter" that is beyond me. (Ps. 131). But you, by your philosophy, are claiming the ability to comprehend the mind of God! That's fine Nebula, like I said, I'm not hear to convert I'm hear to converse Just don't allow 2 major thoughts seep in. 1) God creates evil. God is good and in there is no evil. He cannot tempt which would be evil and He cannot produce evil as this would against His very character and being. James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? 2) Do not think that God involves evil in any way just so that good may come out of it. God does not believe in the end justifies the mean. Romans 6:1-3 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God Forbid. Nice chatting with you.

(Glory of God = the sum total of all His Attributes) multiplied by infinity I do not deny the Hypostatic union. Would you agree that those who saw Jesus, saw the Father? The Glory that Jesus displayed was the Glory of the Godhead, which includes the Father. However we also know that God told Moses you cannot see my Glory less you be consumed. And then again God did show the back of His Glory in the cleft of the rock. But notice what Glory that was as God passed by (Ex. 34:6): 1) Compassionate (Loving) 2) Gracious (Benevolent) 3) Long-suffering (Patient) 4) Good (Loving-kindness) 5) Truth (Just, Holy) 6) Faithful (Covenant trust) 7) Forgiving (Merciful) Now what is missing in those attributes? The BIG ones, you’re right. 1) Eternal 2) Omniscient 3) Omnipotent 4) Omnipresent 5) Self-Sufficient 6) Immutable 7) Sovereign So we have 7 that are communicable and 7 that are non- communicable. Jesus divested Himself of the non-communicable (less we be consumed) and displayed the communicable ones. But also the Glory that Jesus displayed was not His own it was that of the Father, through the Holy Spirit because the Godhead always works in unity. As you quoted, JOHN 1:14 which is great “…and we beheld His Glory, the Glory of the only begotten of the Father,… HEB. 1:3 “God…has in these last days spoken to us through His Son… who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person.” By doing this in this way Jesus becomes our example and expects us to take that Glory to the nations. But you say; God said He would not share His Glory with anyone. I say; We are not anyone, we are the Body of Christ. And so Jesus prayed in JOHN 17:22 “The Glory you have given me, I have given them”. How? The Holy Spirit. He produces that glory in us every day. We are called to exhibit those 7 communicable attributes to a dying world. COL. 1:27 “Christ in you the hope of glory”. Many interpret Col. 1:27 as the hope of glory of heaven or our glorious hope in heaven but the context (verse 26-28) would suggest that **With Christ in us we are the hope of glory to the world.** Thank you for your answer... I would however submit (that since we agree on the Hypostatic Union) that Jesus did not divest Himself of those attributes, else He would not be God...at best He would have been some sort of "lesser god"...and we know that is not the case. So then, I posit that even though He still retained all the attributes of God, that He simply chose not to exercise certain of those attributes in His advent...and I think you will agree that there is a definite difference between divestment of certain attributes, and not excercising (but at the same time retaining) those same attributes. Thoughts? You know I'm perfectly fine with what you say. It's kind of like. God is light, yet HE has to retract that light in order to display darkness in our cocoon of a universe. It then allows Him to splash the universe with a panoply of heavenly bodies which display His Glory. And He does that even though He is Omnipresent within our universe. I believe He did that to be our example and show us as humans we can operate in that same way, dependent on the Spirit, and do even greater things as He stated.

1) How can we say that there is no time with God? Just because He is eternal doesn't mean that there is no succession of time, and I'm not even talking OUR time. There was a point in GOD'S time when He was all alone. You have to agree with me on that. Today God is not alone and forever will not be alone because He has accommodated to bringing us into existence. Is that not a past, present and future for God? God is simply not in a virtual now where everything is happening at once. Christ is not on the cross now. That is past in our time and God's time. 2) Exactly and to make these prophesies sure is for GOD a PIECE OF CAKE. 3) If God's plan is to create a New Jerusalem, then it is already in His mind what it will look like, dimensions and all, so it is no problem to display that for John. 4) This is quite a stretch. I had a vision once in my car just before getting out and going into church. In the vision, somehow I knew I was sitting in my car yet what I was seeing before me was not the dashboard but a big screen like at the movie theater as if I had been transported into a movie theater. Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future These plans are already conceived in God's mind but we are not there yet. However God could easily splash them on a screen if He wanted to share them with somebody.

This post makes no sense. The first paragraph contradicts itself. As arrogant as I am, I decided to let it slide, rather than pointing it out. You first say God knows all things, and then you say there are things that are not knowable. God either knows all things, which would mean the future, or he doesn't know all things. In another thread, you said God could be 99.9 percent certain about things but not 100 percent certain. That would mean he doesn't know all things. I saw it before, but I didn't say anything about it. You don't understand what I mean because you try to comprehend it from the standpoint of your own beliefs. You need to forget what you believe, I don't mean to give up what you believe, and look at it from my point of view. I say: The free will decisions of the future cannot be known, because it has not come to pass. It will only be known we arrive at that point of future and make that decision whether good or bad. In other words if I'm not even a thought in my parents, non existent, how one know any decision that I will make. You say; simple God's in the future and sees it all. I say; God is not in the future, He is in the now, "I AM". Not taking the past and the present and future and condensing it into NOW. HE lives in an eternal successions of NOWS. One day (day, parsec, pixel, whatever you want to use as a point of reference for God) after the other from eternity past to eternity future. Not one day from another having any effect on God Himself, because 1=1000 and 1000=1. So that the future cannot be known because God is not there yet in His eternal existence. His presently NOT at the Battle of Armageddon, nor is He bringing in a new heaven and new earth. But He can prophesy about these things because He can make them come to pass, not because He knows or sees them ahead of time. Jeremiah 32:35 (KJV) And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. Can you explain this verse to me in light of what you believe?

Thank you. I feel like what you said was a stretch, but at least I understand where you came up with your conclusions. What about the other comments he made "and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation?" To say that that list was the seen by looking at God's back side, and then mention things we don't see, as well as not mentioning those comments seems like a stretch to me. The 3rd and 4th generation thing gets into spiritual warfare, consequences and effects of sin, etc. It gets way beyond this topic.

"In a way we do have free will, and in another way, free will is an illusion." There is no contradiction there. God creates me knowing everything I will do in my life. In that sense, I have no free will. At the same time, I am making decisions throughout the day, so in that sense, I have free will. I am choosing to respond to this thread, but God knew I would do that a trillion years ago. So God creates Lucifer knowing full well that he will rebel which is exactly part of His plan. And when it happens God sends him to hell. In other words God creates someone with a club foot, they obviously have no say in the matter, but everyone with a club foot goes to hell. Sounds fair to me????

How do we come up with those conclusions from God passing by Moses? Exodus 33:18-23 And he said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passes by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. In response to Moses’ request to see God’s Glory, God says I will make all my goodness pass before thee and yet right after that He says you can’t see my face (the front of his Glory) lest he die. I see here 2 types of Glory, a glory that can be revealed and one that can not. And the revealed Glory is Chap. 34:6-7. The list is there. And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

It is hard to have a discussion when people contradict themselves in their own reasoning. I couldn't pass this up, it's remarkable.

Secondly is this statement: The fact, that you believe that God would create a human being for the sole purpose of betraying Jesus and then send him to an eternal torment in hell with no choice whatsoever, is grievous. It is absolutely mind boggling that a God of infinite goodness and love who desires a relationship with every one of His creature could even think of such a diabolical scheme. John 17:11-12 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (NKJV) I submit the following for consideration: 1) One of the twelve was certain to be doomed in order that scripture would be fulfilled. (Ps 41:9, Zech.11:12, et.al) Sometimes Christians have a tendency to think that because it was prophesied God is subject to bring to pass or God saw ahead of time the event so He can now prophesy about it. This is a wrong view point. God is the author of prophesy not the other way around. God choose that when the time comes Jesus will be betrayed, as opposed to simply being seized by the authorities. There also had to be a manner of death that caused the shedding of blood. Drowning would not do. So when this is decided in the mind of God it is a simple thing for Him to prophesy and bring it to pass. 2) That this plan was put into place from the time that man fell in the garden (Gen 3:15) For sure the plan of salvation was, we have no way of knowing that God already then was thinking about the betrayal. 3) That God Himself ordained that Messiah would be betrayed and given over to the executioner Yes at some point He did. 4) That the cross was necessary and unavoidable in order to complete His redemptive plan for mankind. (Ps 22, Isaiah 53, et.al) Death was unavoidable, crucifixion was certainly the perfect method. 5) And all this from the "foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:19-22) See #2 Obviously...one was chosen to be doomed... How, in light of the scriptures and the prophecy do you work around this?

(Glory of God = the sum total of all His Attributes) multiplied by infinity I do not deny the Hypostatic union. Would you agree that those who saw Jesus, saw the Father? The Glory that Jesus displayed was the Glory of the Godhead, which includes the Father. However we also know that God told Moses you cannot see my Glory less you be consumed. And then again God did show the back of His Glory in the cleft of the rock. But notice what Glory that was as God passed by (Ex. 34:6): 1) Compassionate (Loving) 2) Gracious (Benevolent) 3) Long-suffering (Patient) 4) Good (Loving-kindness) 5) Truth (Just, Holy) 6) Faithful (Covenant trust) 7) Forgiving (Merciful) Now what is missing in those attributes? The BIG ones, you’re right. 1) Eternal 2) Omniscient 3) Omnipotent 4) Omnipresent 5) Self-Sufficient 6) Immutable 7) Sovereign So we have 7 that are communicable and 7 that are non- communicable. Jesus divested Himself of the non-communicable (less we be consumed) and displayed the communicable ones. But also the Glory that Jesus displayed was not His own it was that of the Father, through the Holy Spirit because the Godhead always works in unity. As you quoted, JOHN 1:14 which is great “…and we beheld His Glory, the Glory of the only begotten of the Father,… HEB. 1:3 “God…has in these last days spoken to us through His Son… who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person.” By doing this in this way Jesus becomes our example and expects us to take that Glory to the nations. But you say; God said He would not share His Glory with anyone. I say; We are not anyone, we are the Body of Christ. And so Jesus prayed in JOHN 17:22 “The Glory you have given me, I have given them”. How? The Holy Spirit. He produces that glory in us every day. We are called to exhibit those 7 communicable attributes to a dying world. COL. 1:27 “Christ in you the hope of glory”. Many interpret Col. 1:27 as the hope of glory of heaven or our glorious hope in heaven but the context (verse 26-28) would suggest that **With Christ in us we are the hope of glory to the world.**

If you don't believe what you are teaching is doctrine then why did you start this thread in the doctrinal section? All doctrine means is something taught and it seems to me like you are trying to teach us something in this thread. It looks to me like you are saying that God is not all knowing, and I'm trying to figure out why you feel like it's important for me to be convinced and come to believe as you do. Is it your belief that by causing people somehow to think that God doesn't know everything, that they then will in turn reject the predestination doctrines taught it the scripture? I guess I never considered the thread. My bad. If the moderator wishes to throw this conversation somewhere else, I'm fine with that. Once again I do not say or espouse the thought that God is NOT all knowing. What I'm saying is that the free will decisions, that angels or we make, are not a knowable thing until the very moment of there existence or until it they actually takes place. Therefore, if they do not exist, there is nothing to be known or knowable. God still knows everything. He knows everything about His creation, that goes without saying because He created it. God obviously is aware of every one of His own thoughts as He formulates them in His mind and God knows immediately the thoughts of our own mind as they come in to existence. Now I know that this line of thinking brings up many other questions but no more than thinking that God knows His own thoughts in advance. That to me is the most illogical statement ever made. (Not saying you espouse that reasoning because I don’t know exactly where you stand on this issue.) *** REMOVED PERSON ATTACK *** The problem with arrogance is that it clouds our judgment. Hence Butero believes that Judas was create for the sole purpose of betraying Jesus and then hell. This thought is a Dung Beatle in the ointment of God’s divine attributes. A loving, good God, in which there is no evil, cannot do that. So there must be another explanation. And when we can’t explain that, we say, well God is sovereign, He can do what He wants. I agree He can do what He wants but never in a way that compromises His other attributes. The sovereignty card becomes a trump card for something that doesn’t make sense but we can’t explain. Whether the potter creates a beautiful vase or a chamber pot, they both have their purpose, especially in the middle of the night, And He desires ALL to be saved and have a relationship with Him. I used to think along the lines of pre-destination but there was always the nagging question of free will. Actually I believe that if Paul was alive in the days of Calvin, he would have been burned at the stake for his heretical beliefs. But the church at that time wasn’t competent enough to refute his doctrine. So it is here today alive and well poisoning the minds of many, not only Christians but sinners alike. Many a sinner is outside of the kingdom because they cannot conceive a good, gracious and loving God who creates more humans to go to hell than heaven. But when I get them to consider want I believe, all of a sudden I have there full attention. I manage the change their focus from a cruel God to a loving God who a Saviour for them. I take away their excuse of, “Well that’s the way you made me, to go to hell. It’s Your fault not mine”.

Yeah! Too bad He looses His free will.