kross

Martin Luther wrote a book called "The Captivity of The Will" and Calvin (even if you do not believe his overall beliefs) does a great job of explaining the concept of the will not being "Free" in the way many today think of it. Yes I know that here are other theologians who teach differently. I learned all I know of the Bible from reading the Bible and prayer. Long after I had formulated an understanding, one that disagreed with everything I believed before, I discovered that great Biblical thinkers had seen the same things in the scriptures. This is probably true for most. I have enjoyed the conversations of late, but I am returning to writing my novel. I hope that I will not return to chatting for a couple of months. Blessing to all during the Christmas festivities. HIS peace I leave with you. KRN

That is close, but not quite right. It is my contention that everything GOD allows, HE wants to happen and everything HE doesn't allow, HE doesnt want to happen. I do not believe GOD forces us to do anything. GOD knows exactly how to influence our desires so that we will want to do the good HE would have us do and HE knows how not to intervene so that Satan can (as we see in Job) do what Satan does, within the limits of what GOD will allow him. All of which is in accordance with what GOD intends to happen. When the HOLY SPIRIT does a work, HE does it perfectly.

Like all Christians, we agree on 90% and we discuss the other issues vehemently. I am not saying GOD or Satan make us do things against our will, I am saying they bend our will to what they want and then we choose to do it.

A desire HE put in me and stengthened to the point that I speak as Paul did when I say it is not by my will but by the will of GOD.

That has been my point all along. Sin and evill were intended in this world as part of the plan, which was for CHRIST to die. i would say it was expected rather than intended. Intended kinda implies that God wanted it. Expected implies that God knew free-will may cause creation to choose against Him. I believe GOd most certainly wanted it. Otherwise, what is creation for? why not say God allowed it? The same way God allowed the angels to rebel. God is flexing His power when He allows for those things to happen. I understand why one would use allowed. The issue is, it was in their make-up to want to, in their nature, and they were created with this nature.

That has been my point all along. Sin and evill were intended in this world as part of the plan, which was for CHRIST to die. i would say it was expected rather than intended. Intended kinda implies that God wanted it. Expected implies that God knew free-will may cause creation to choose against Him. I believe GOd most certainly wanted it. Otherwise, what is creation for?

That does not change the fact that Pharoah had already hardened His heart before God gave him over to his own hardness. However, Paul tells us that God raised Pharaoh up for this purpose. So God is still the initiator Eric, We all know GOD hardened Pharoah's heart, we all now that HE makes one vessel for honor and one for dis-honor, and we all know the Bible is very clear that GOD will have mercy on whom HE chooses and whom HE chooses HE hardens. Still, there are some who make that say the exact opposite of what it says. GOD bess you during this conversation. IF you carry it long enough, you will find the flaws in the logic. My conversations on this topic, Romans 9, have proven to me that I understand it very well

This is difficult subject in some ways......Satan was not created evil, he used to sing and praise God. He chose evil and God found it in him. This really not a difficault subject if you believe GOD designed Satan with a complete knowledge of who and what he was and would be. It is only difficult when you do not want to extend the soveriegnty of GOD to include that the outcome of HIS design and creation is exactly what HE intended it to be. Then it gets difficult.

Hyper-sovereignty is not "the truth." It is not biblical at all. It is an overstatement of what the Bible says about God's sovereignty. I do not believe you can over state GODs soveriegnty any more than I believe you can trust JESUS too much. But, you do tend to read a completely different message in the Bible than I do. It makes for interesting discussions.

of coarse God expected a rebellion to occur before He created the angels. Yes, God knew that free-will will run its coarse. God's character would of destroyed all those rebelling angels but they were not destroyed. "Why not" is what you should be asking. It seems as though a price was already paid or "something" was holding Him back. I think the something holding HIM back is HIS plan and purpose for making them. His plan cannot hold something back. If that were true then His Godly attributes are flawed. The moment one goes against a single word of God then a price has to be paid. His attributes would demand judgement. A plan cannot pass off as righteousness. If that were true then Christ should of not died and accepting a "plan" would of been suffice. Except we know that the plan was for CHRIST to die. The LAMB slain from the foundations of the world. you just answered your own point. That has been my point all along. Sin and evill were intended in this world as part of the plan, which was for CHRIST to die.

Earth is a place deeply influenced by Satan and his death force. If people can 'survive' this by faith and choose to be with God in this environment, they will no longer rebel when in heaven where Satan's force will be absent. I am answerring many different people who have said about the same thing. So, this is redundant. That is absolutely true. No disagreement at all. There will be no sin or evil in heaven or the new earth because there will be no Satan and a different sinless flesh. I believe GOD can create this place. There are those who say GOD didn't create Satan.GOD created an angel that made a freewill choice that GOD had no intention of happening. IF this is so, which I do not believe, then what is to keep another angel from doing the same thing, or a person, in the next heaven? Based on GOD's track record to date, what faith can you have in HIS ability to created a sinless environment where there is no evil?

God makes no mistakes. Frankly kross, I'm surprised that you would make such a statement. Are you not feeling well? Or is the real kross coming out? I have clearly stated that I believe GOD intended this world to be exactly what it is. The question is for those who believe that this creation is not what GOD intended it to be. And for those who believe GOD didnt create Satan to be what he is. I read very well, my friend (you really should note when you go back and change a posting). You need to be more clear if you don't mean what you say because you did say "Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern?" If it was a rhetorical/sarcastic question, you should say so or leave some type of clue. It's a non-issue, though, for me. I now know what you meant. I guess I assume when people see IF at the beginning of a statement that they will then link the question with the IF. My bad. I have not gone back and editted any posts one they have been addressed by anyone.

Your position is based on the assumption that nothing happens unless God intends for it to happen. The problem is that you have to step outside Scripture to make that argument. The Bible does not say that, so your assumption is not based on biblical fact from the get-go. You are relying on your assumption and trying to interpret the Scripture to fit your assumption. You do not have a biblical grasp on God's sovereignty and you are relying on an unbiblical assumption. The Bible says that nothing happens outside God's knowledge and permission. It does not say that everything happens because God intends. The Bible does not even say that God intended man to fall. All we know from Scripture is that God permitted what He knew would happen and that He already had a plan in place to redeem man from the fall. You have NO biblical grounds for claiming that God intended the world to be in the condition it is in. while i agree with what you say Shiloh, would you supply scriptures for us for your last paragraph, esp the first sentance, thanks. just wanted to say thanks shiloh, that's exactly what i've been trying to say for two (three?) days now... you said it much better than i did, and i hope that kross's eyes will be opened because of it. Equally, the rejection of the idea that GOD created Satan, and the earth, and put all of the ingredients together with full knowledge of what would transpire doesn't indicate that what HE intended to happen is what did happen, IS an assumption. The assumption that GOD didn't intend the fall is equally unvalid as the assumption that HE did. Perhaps more invalid, since scripture points us to the fact that HE not only knew what the outcome of HIS design would be, as a direct result of how HE designed it, but it also points to the fact that the entire point of creation is to glorify HIS son, the LAMB that was destined to be slain before any sin was committed. Whle it is always just bad conversation to say one person's assumption is wrong because it disagrees with another persons assumption, that is stilll not the cruxt of the question of the thread. If GOD didn't intend for sin to be in this world, which was brought about be evil that was in a created being we call Satan, if GOD didn't intend Satan to be what HE is, then HOW CAN YOU HAVE FAITH THAT GOD CAN MAKE THE NEXT CREATION WITHOUT SIN AND DEATH? If angels will still have free will, then one can choose to lead a rebellion. Your arguement is like saying that if a person mixes all the ingredients for a cake and puts it is the oven and it comes out a cake, that was not their intention.

So you agree that Satan as created for this? That he wasn't intended to be something else and changed? Because if that is what you are saying, than I agree with you. GOD created Satan to be what Satan is, thus not creating another one after he is tanked will result in a lack of sin and evil.

This particular post is about the before. If GOD didn't intend sin and evil in this world, how can you be sure HE will be able to keep it out of the next one?