larryt

It is not about tax exempt. It is about the church incorporating and thus registering as a paper entity in order to procure certain priveleges. Once a church incorporates it becomes voluntarily subject to all the laws governing corporations. There are already several instances where 501.c3 churches have been shut down for various reasons because they refused to conply with the corporate laws. The powers that be are biding their time until they and start forcing churches to submit to the corporate laws. Some will go underground and some will submit and start performing according to the corporate statutes.

Hi Shane, It is interesting that I have been thinking about some things that might be of interest to you. 1. What do you really want from the bottom of your heart? Do you want to know about God or do you want to know Him personally? Have a real active relationship with the living God. Before I was "saved", born again, however you want to describe the experience I came to the conclusion that I wanted to meet God, wanted to know Him for who He is. Not some figment of my imagination or the imagination of some other man which is the essence of idolitry. This desire is how the Holy Spirit began in me the work of salvation. When I came to this conclusion I just cried out to God one night that I wanted to know who He was. Shortly after I heard someone preach the gospel and it all made sense to me, I believed it and asked God to save me and be the Lord of my life. That instant I was changed and knew that Jesus had come into my life by the Holy Spirit and was living in me. He has never left me nor forsaken me. Jer 9:23 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise [man] glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty [man] glory in his might, let not the rich [man] glory in his riches: Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I [am] the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD. Do you want to know God? Tell Him.

Then on to the second point. I reject that. While I accept the concept of Election, I reject the idea that God gets off and is gloried by seeing people fry for all eternity in hell. If we believe, it is solely because of God. if we don't, it's soley because of us. Those in heaven have Christ to thank. Those in hell have self to blame - not God. I don't thank God for seeing people fry for eternity in hell. And I don't think He smiles or laughs or is pleased with such - I do NOT believe such is His glory and desire. Who said anything about God taking joy in the death of the wicked. You draw a conclusion based on your human logic. God says directly that He takes no joy in the death of the wicked. This is a question of God's sovereignty and not how can we rationalize the scripture to our puny thinking process. Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: grace and peace I agree with Eph. 1:5 which is why I reject TULIPS' double predestination. So how do you define predestination? It is a biblical term. How do you define election? Is election based on something man does or is it based entirely on the will of God? If you are going to discuss this them try to positively state your position. I have heard all the arguments against my position and have not found any that are able to positively present an alternative. It is funny how all the debate is centered around showing why the Calvinist position is incorrect and not very much on the pro-Armenian position. You have stated you reject both. What is your alternative? Without an alternative your statement is meaningless. I define "DOUBLE predestination" as God chose some for heaven AND some for hell. No, it's not biblical. Election is the application of the GOSPEL that we were loved as His own before the foundation of the world. TULIP begins biblical enough - but then applies a LOT of fallible, sinful, LIMITED human "logic" in an attempt to have a nice, neat set of doctrines - that conflict with much of Scripture. Arminianism begins biblical enough - but then applies a LOT of fallible, sinful, LIMITED human "logic" in an attempt to have a nice, neat set of doctrines - that conflict with much of Scripture. OK, I don't adhere to "DOUBLE predestination" either. The question is: how do you define predestination as used in the bible. Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. And again you do not positively state your position with your definition of predestination. Now, your post on election opens up a need to define more terms. You state your idea on election in terms of "we" and "HIs own" so are the "we" the believers or everybody. The bible says Jesus came to save His people from their sins. His sheep hear His voice and get saved. The goats don't and are separated from the sheep. As for total depravity in TULIP, if you believe in total depravity how is it that you cannot see the need to logically follow the rest? Grace & Peace LT

Then on to the second point. I reject that. While I accept the concept of Election, I reject the idea that God gets off and is gloried by seeing people fry for all eternity in hell. If we believe, it is solely because of God. if we don't, it's soley because of us. Those in heaven have Christ to thank. Those in hell have self to blame - not God. I don't thank God for seeing people fry for eternity in hell. And I don't think He smiles or laughs or is pleased with such - I do NOT believe such is His glory and desire. Who said anything about God taking joy in the death of the wicked. You draw a conclusion based on your human logic. God says directly that He takes no joy in the death of the wicked. This is a question of God's sovereignty and not how can we rationalize the scripture to our puny thinking process. Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: grace and peace I agree with Eph. 1:5 which is why I reject TULIPS' double predestination. So how do you define predestination? It is a biblical term. How do you define election? Is election based on something man does or is it based entirely on the will of God? If you are going to discuss this them try to positively state your position. I have heard all the arguments against my position and have not found any that are able to positively present an alternative. It is funny how all the debate is centered around showing why the Calvinist position is incorrect and not very much on the pro-Armenian position. You have stated you reject both. What is your alternative? Without an alternative your statement is meaningless.

Hi WillowWood, Yes this is a loonnngggg thread. I do not agree that it is mind numbing though. Discussing sound doctrine though is never unpleasant or mind numbing for me as sound doctrine is all about My Lord Jesus Christ. You are yet another one that uses the term "Free Will" but does not define it. I have asked many that use the term to define what they mean by it. Check post 1314 above please. I have already stated my case against free will several times in this thread and defined what I mean by it. If you believe that man is NOT totally depraved then I can understand how you can come to the conclusion that man has a free will. If you believe in total depravity then I do not understand how you can find that man has a free will. Grace & Peace LT How do I define free will? It means having a 'free will' where not everything is pre-determined. As for total depravity, I never said that I believed in it. If the will is free, what is it free from....... and what is it free to do....... Can the natural man choose to love God all by itself or is it enmity and unable to be subjected to God?

Hi WillowWood, Yes this is a loonnngggg thread. I do not agree that it is mind numbing though. Discussing sound doctrine though is never unpleasant or mind numbing for me as sound doctrine is all about My Lord Jesus Christ. You are yet another one that uses the term "Free Will" but does not define it. I have asked many that use the term to define what they mean by it. Check post 1314 above please. I have already stated my case against free will several times in this thread and defined what I mean by it. If you believe that man is NOT totally depraved then I can understand how you can come to the conclusion that man has a free will. If you believe in total depravity then I do not understand how you can find that man has a free will. Grace & Peace LT

Then on to the second point. I reject that. While I accept the concept of Election, I reject the idea that God gets off and is gloried by seeing people fry for all eternity in hell. If we believe, it is solely because of God. if we don't, it's soley because of us. Those in heaven have Christ to thank. Those in hell have self to blame - not God. I don't thank God for seeing people fry for eternity in hell. And I don't think He smiles or laughs or is pleased with such - I do NOT believe such is His glory and desire. Who said anything about God taking joy in the death of the wicked. You draw a conclusion based on your human logic. God says directly that He takes no joy in the death of the wicked. This is a question of God's sovereignty and not how can we rationalize the scripture to our puny thinking process. Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: grace and peace Hi Larry...the Lord bless you and keep you... Larry, you are making a classic "denomination" error...you are (not realizing it as this is how this doctrine is taught...in a series of unrelated pieces taken out of the whole and strung together, Arminians, Catholics, even cults like the UPC...all do this...maybe its a human thing) The whole context in this section of Ephesians 1 ends with verses 13 and 14...which are a summation of what Paul has concluded...Calvinists and most reformed theologians MUST leave the conclusion out because it negates there position.... Ephesians 1:13 tells us that after they heard the word of truth, the gospel, they believed,,,then after trusting they received the Holy Spirit of promise. There is a definite sequence here born out in many places. God speaks to us through the Spirit or the word or by a prophet or Apostle or a preacher or even a friend (faith comes by hearing) and then some people believe (but some will reject - Romans 1). Those that do receive Him are those God fills and seals with the Holy Spirit (in other words they are regenerated after they express their belief)...John 1:12 tells us that "to as many as received Him to them He gave the right to BECOME His children. It is these who will be born from above. Now this does not mean that salvation is not all of grace (thus all of God) because even if one exhibits His sovereignly required response (to turn to, or believe, or accept, or obey), He owes no man anything because all have sinned...So the initiation of the offer is totally by grace....and if one believes God...He saves (totally by grace). This likewise does not mean one is making "belief" a work (Romans 4:2-5). it is not. Brother Paul Hi Paul, The fact that one believes is the evidence that they are the elect. Yes it is the hearing of the word that is the impetus of eternal life. I was chosen unto eternal life before the foundation of the world. The Father knew me and has always known me as He knows all His elect, His children. You accuse me of a denominational error but I am not sure as to what denomination you are referring to. I am curious as to how many of the posts you have gone through. I mentioned in post 1314 about how I came to the conclusions I have come to believe. You will have to define for me what it means to be chosen or elected. And while you are at it how about "ordained." Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 2Th 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Grace and peace LT

As I see the freedom ... it is to see truth and lie! Gen 3:22-23 22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" — NKJV Now as we all became sin in Adam all died! However in seeing the truth of this we became empty of hope in what we had become... yet still seeing the truth and believing God 'IS' we submitted to The Who of God and was granted repentance to turn from ourselves by 'death of' and seek His Life (Christ) to reign in place of our own-> our lives now made dead by The Cross but alive in Him... John 8:31-36 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." 33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, 'You will be made free'?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. NKJV Love, Steven Hi Steven Are you then stating that the natural man is "FREE" to be able to see truth and lies?

Hi Brother Paul, Welcome to WB and thank you for your time in addressing this matter. Several point that you bring up I would like to address. I was never a Calvinist nor am I now a Calvinist. I did not come to the conclusions about TULIP or DAISY from looking at their doctrine but came to the same conclusions and found out that that is what is taught by Calvinist doctrine. I have stated several time in this thread that one can preach Calvinism and never preach Christ. On the other hand If you preach Christ I have found that the doctrines of Calvinism are all there. One thing I agree with is that Adam was created with a free will, in that it was not subject to bondage in sin. When he disobeyed though, his will was subjected to the sin nature that permeated his entire being and was no longer "FREE" as many claim. If you still believe man has a FREE will them you will have to define "free" for me in both: the will is free to.... & the will is free from... I have asked this several time and I have not gotten an answer from anyone yet. I do believe that all men are made aware that the One True God, the Lord of Lords, for the heavens declare the glory of God, but that is not to say that God has revealed Himself to all men. In any case man by the fact that God exists is responsible and required to subject himself to the King of Kings. God chooses exclusively based according to His own will who will be saved and does not save the rest, by leaving them to their own sinfulness. It is not a matter of God saving some and condemning others. All are condemned already and the fact that God decides to save some of us is the essence of Sovereign Grace. God's choice is not arbitrary but is it not based on what man "will" do either. Foreknowledge has nothing to do with knowing beforehand. If that is all that it means then there are people that Jesus does not know about. Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. And when Adam knew his wife it is not talking about just knowing about her but indicates a deep intimate relationship both physical and spiritual. God predestinated those He did foreknow in that He already had a relationship with them before they even existed in this world. They existed in the mind of God. It also makes God a respecter of persons to grant salvation to those that will do something, choose to believe. The fact that man is immersed in sinfulness requires him to forever war against God unless there is a change first. It takes God removing man's stoney heart and creating a heart of flesh for man to even consider bowing his knee to the the king. Grace & Peace LT

This verse is always taken out of context and is used to "prove" that God wants to save every last human being but overlook who Peter is addressing. 2Pe 1:1 ¶ Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: .2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward, not willing that any(of us) should perish, but that all(of us) should come to repentance. Who is the any that God is not willing to let perish? He is long suffering toward US, who have obtained like precious faith along with Peter..

Who said anything about God taking joy in the death of the wicked. You draw a conclusion based on your human logic. God says directly that He takes no joy in the death of the wicked. This is a question of God's sovereignty and not how can we rationalize the scripture to our puny thinking process. Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: grace and peace Then you reject Calvin's double predestination and agree with me? If so, you reject TULIP. Again you make assumptions based on your presuppositions about what I believe. As I have stated earlier I am not a Calvinist for If I preach Calvinism I will not be preaching Christ. If I preach Christ the ideas expressed in Calvinism will be evident IMHO. Grace and peace

Then on to the second point. I reject that. While I accept the concept of Election, I reject the idea that God gets off and is gloried by seeing people fry for all eternity in hell. If we believe, it is solely because of God. if we don't, it's soley because of us. Those in heaven have Christ to thank. Those in hell have self to blame - not God. I don't thank God for seeing people fry for eternity in hell. And I don't think He smiles or laughs or is pleased with such - I do NOT believe such is His glory and desire. Who said anything about God taking joy in the death of the wicked. You draw a conclusion based on your human logic. God says directly that He takes no joy in the death of the wicked. This is a question of God's sovereignty and not how can we rationalize the scripture to our puny thinking process. Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: grace and peace

Well, then you really missed the point of this thread. So what is the point that you think I have missed. I do believe that points of Calvinism, though I do not believe in preaching Calvinism, are the essence of the Gospel/The Faith once delivered to the Saints. Your specific post referred to above was the reason for my question on "Do you see man as totally depraved or just wounded?" I was linking the post to the first point of Calvinism which is the point of the thread as I see it. grace & peace By your words, if I understand them correctly, tells me that you do not understand what people, including myself, have said. Your exact words are "can raise himself from the dead, see though blind from birth on his own". Nobody that I am aware of claims to be able to raise themselves from the dead, or can see though blind by themselves. They can, however, answer His call of salvation. It is , and always has been, God who does the work. So the direct question that I have been trying to get an answer to is: Is man totally depraved or is he only wounded? And the referrence to being raised from the dead is a spiritually dead person, I am talking about spiritually deadness and spiritual blindness. To answer the call is in my view only possible if God does a work first, giving prevenient grace to those He chose in His sovereign will before the foundation of the world to save not loosing any that were given to Christ. Sorry if I missed your reply. If you can tell me what you mean by "Is man totally depraved or is he only wounded?". I am afraid that I don't understand the question and do not want to misaddress your question. Yes, I have thought I understood, but now believe I do not. T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God. D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive)OR WOUNDED. Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation. Grace and peace The points of Calvinism and Armianism are the 2 positions.

I 100% reject BOTH of these. They both go "too far" They both subject Scripture to WAY to much HUMAN, sinful, fallen "logic." They both embrace SOME Scriptures, put too much into them, and then largely "dismiss" others because they don't seem to agree. I think there is "mystery" here - and that's okay. We don't NEED to understand; we NEED to trust/rely. I don't UNDERSTAND how or why all these things "crank out." God does. That's all that matters. I believe that because I believe, GOD did that. ALL good things from God. ALL related to salvation is God's doing. I believe that we are justified by Grace, because of Christ, through faith - and that's ONE inseparable doctrine and article of faith. HOW GOD does that - I don't know (fully). I thus reject TULIP and DAISY. I am currious as to how long you have been thinking about this. Take just the first point in Tulip & DAISY. Total depravity or Depraved but just partially. You personnally, where do you see yourself? Grace & Peace On that SINGULAR point, I'm with the Calvinists. Then on to the second point. This poils down to: Is God absolutely sovereign or does man have some sovereignty?