Breckmin

No it is not fair to pre-tribbers because the system you speak of is a compromised system. They are actually at a disadvantage because there is no clear scriptural proof of a pre-trib rapture. As for the profitability of this discussion I say that any time a brother or a sister realizes that they have been deceived about any non biblical doctrinal belief. The God of heaven is blessed because the blinders have been removed from one of His children. I firmly believe that what we believe about the end times will dictate our reaction to the events when they happen and if we believe wrongly or false doctrine then our reaction to these coming events will be the wrong reaction. How do you know that the seventh trump will sound at the beginning or just before the beginning of the battle of Armageddon? What scripture tells you that the last trump will sound just before the battle? You have just verified my point because when you speak of the last trump sounding at the gathering of the armies at Armageddon. You are speaking about something that is not written anywhere in the bible. In fact it is after the sixth trump is sounded that the bible speaks of the two hundred thousand,thousand man army. Not the seventh trump. The bible is not at all clear about the sequence of events regarding the Seals, the Trumpets and the Vials or Bowls. If the seventh trumpet sounds just before the battle of Armageddon or at the gathering of the armies and the battle takes place at the end of the seven years. What happened to the Bowls. My whole point here is this. If it is not written in the bible it is a false doctrinal teaching and we need to put a stop to it if we can. Or at they very least we should speak out against it as the opportunity arises. Jesus did. Any time one of His disciples said something that was dead wrong He corrected them. We should be fallowing Jesus's example at all times and in all things. You can simplify much of it by saying you don't believe in two raptures. You can also ask why the tribulational believers are not allowed to be part of the "church" because they will somehow miss the rapture. How can the Holy Spirit take Christians to heaven and be so called "taken out" when you have Christians dying for their faith during the tribulation. There are dozen's of ways to approach it logically. How can the dead in Christ "rise first" when they are dying afterwards in the tribulation. Are martyred tribulational believers not "dead in Christ?" The pretribbers accuse the historical pre-milleniumists of saying "Christians are going to go up and then they are going to come down." I've heard this in sermons over and over "they go up, and then they come down," repeated as though this invalidates the eschatological position. If someone is in the US or China, and they are traveling to the mount of olives, my point is they are going on the other side of the world. It is going to be a gathering, not just going up and coming down. It is much easier to believe that the last trump is the seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation. I would say "pray!" And pray as much as you can before God. Ask God to "protect you from any theology that isn't true" on this point. There are plenty of scriptures that indicate Christians will be persecuted if you take a literal interpretation of the New Testament. Then you don't have to "dance around" Matthew 24 and 25 and all of the passages that clearly indicate the one taken is taken first to judgement. When I say "dance around" I mean claiming New Testament passages are only to the Jews or Israel, and not to the followers of Christ (Jewish or not) to whom Jesus was speaking to. The fact is, if you had no dispensational hermeneutic to interpret the passages and you just took them literally, we would all be either post trib or Amill, or some postion that might somehow combine them. I expect a 1000 year reign, but I will not be surprised if we were somehow wrong on that one verse being an exactism. Test all things, hold fast to what is true. In Christ, Michael

you can believe what is plainly spelled out in scripture, but we are talking about eschatology here, so I dont get your point! To answer your question: The answer is John Nelson Darby and then D.L. Moody teaching it. Moody was one of the greatest evangelists ever, but God works perfectly through everyone's imperfection. For the record, I believe post trib will stay behind the scenes and in the trenches until the tribulation. How else would would they be able to mock us and say "Where is the promise of His Coming?" All of the most famous pastors on the conservative evangelical radio will be like Moody. Just one area of theology that God for some reason didn't correct with them... We will have to ask the Lord someday.

Is this really fair to pre-tribbers? It is based on a system of interpreting those particular scriptures - what they call a "dispensational hermeneutic" that allows you to piece a verse here and a verse there to go with Rev. 3:10. My question is how profitable is this discussion? The days are few and there is much work to be done. True, I believe the rapture will take place near the last hours of tribulation just before Armageddon, but how is that going to change the fact if we are almost all going to be martyred (or our grandchildren or later decendants will be) during the tribulation for our faith. Seventh trumpet or no seventh trumpet, gathering for war (Armageddon) at the seventh trumpet like in the Old Testament or not, what difference will arguing about this change the fact that with BOTH positions, there will be those who are giving their lives who believe in Christ as Lord and Savior in front of those who have taken the mark on their right hand and foreheads. I have a different discussion!!!!! There will be many babies and many children who are given the mark of the beast (something to do with 666 perhaps) and will NOT be consenting to full knowledge??? Are they eternally lost??? Or CAN they repent? If we are witnessing and giving our lives in front of those who are still living IS there still hope for them??? Here is the question. Is the Cross of Jesus Christ a Great Enough Sacrifice for sins, that if a person cuts the mark of the beast off of their right hand or off of their forehead and trusts that the Blood of Jesus is a Great Enough Spiritual Detergent to wash them clean from this mark of the beast.... can they be saved? Will God condemn the world because of technicality during the tribulation? Or, are we called to still preach the gospel to those who have taken the mark of the beast? Can a person have an underground Christian doctor remove the mark of the beast and believe that the Cross of Jesus is Great Enough to forgive them for taking the mark and be saved by their FAITH??? Where is the heart of God the Father on this?? Which event meant more to God the Father? Jesus dying on the Cross for our sins, or them first taking the mark? and then coming to repentance!!! If the person places their faith in the FIRST event? How will death deny their payment for sin? I believe that the Cross of Jesus Christ is a Great Enough Sacrifice unto God that it is indeed Great Enough to cover those who repent from taking the mark of the beast, especially those children who did not have much of a choice. I believe that the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ, is a Great Enough Spiritual Detergent, that it is great enough to wash these who repent from the mark of the beast and make them whiter than snow. Test all things, hold fast to what is True! In His Incredible Love and Forgiveness, Michael

Re: Blaphemous Thoughts and the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit I work with people and help them get free from this fear, doubt and uncertainty about their salvation. This is my first post here, so I don't know how to get in touch with any of you yet, but I enjoy seeing people get delivered from the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, both thoughts and spoken. It is a faith building process that requires cooperation and what psychologists call "psychotherapy." I just call it the TRUTH from the Word of God. If you have struggles with this at an early age you may have other symptons of Scrupulosity or Religious OCD which some Christians believe is "demonic" OCD. I do believe in engaging in spiritual warfare and I teach others, by the Grace of God, how to do this and how to get deliverance. I was delivered from blasphemous thoughts and the belief I had committed the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit after 33 years of struggling with it myself. So I know all too well about the nightmare of it. If someone is able to email me off of this, make certain to put "blasphemous thoughts" or "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" in the email title. In Christ and His Grace and Forgivness, always, Michael