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Butero

Royal Member
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Butero last won the day on December 5

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About Butero

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    Royal Member
  • Birthday 06/07/1965

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  1. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    No matter how you say it, God told the spirit to go and lie. It was God looking for anyone to come up with a way to deceive King Ahab.
  2. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    When I get a chance, I will look further into what you are saying about the book of life. That sounds backwards from what most teach, and many say there are two books, one containing all people, and one, only those who are saved, but I haven't really considered it the way you are saying. Lord willing, I will take a closer look.
  3. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    He told this spirit to lie. Anyway, I could continue on with this, but I see no value in it. As far as Calvinism goes, one major difference between me and your typical follower of Calvin is that they believe that if a person simply has a heart towards God, that proves they are the elect, and they reject good works. I believe that God alone knows who is the elect based on their decision to accept Christ and continue following him, thus the admonition to make your calling and election sure. I have never been a follower of Calvin. I am just familiar with the fact everyone relates predestination to him.
  4. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    I don't believe in Calvinism, as I reject many of his teachings. I just believe in predestination and election, not the way Calvin teaches it.
  5. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    That is how this all began. It is all tied in together. God creates everyone knowing all they will ever do, good or bad. He knows who will be saved and who will be lost. Each person's actions directly effect others, so all details must work according to plan, not just because of little incidental things, but to bring about Bible prophecy. All the scriptures dealing with the elect are based on that idea. God created and chose who he would reveal his Son to, and knew who would continue and who would fall away. He created Judas Iscariot to be the betrayer of the Lord. You can't get much more evil than that, so why is it such a stretch to say he created Lucifer to be his adversary? It all ties in together.
  6. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    God told him to do it. "Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail, go out, and do even so." He had lying spirits in the meeting with him, and not only agreed to let him do it, he sent him out on the mission.
  7. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    That is a matter of opinion. I have told this story, but it bears repeating. I have watched over and over again all the debates over OSAS, and how one side will take all the scriptures that supports their claims and use them, while ignoring the other side, and if they are pressured to answer, they will give very weak and timid replies. I was on the job one day going down the highway, and I asked the Lord to reconcile the scriptures for me, as he said the Holy Spirit will be our teacher and guide us into all truth. The answer I got was sudden and unexpected, predestination and election. That was the key to understanding it all. I know this was not me simply reconciling it myself because I had rejected that notion long before. I used to work with Calvinists, and I rejected the idea based on human reasoning and what I thought to be basic fairness. When this was revealed to me, I knew it fit. When I looked into the Bible, I could see it was true. I would also point out that I have watched as those for and against OSAS battle it out and they can't really reconcile all the scriptures, but I can. One thing that also helped shape my views was not just reading the Bible, but listening to it in large chunks at a time while going down the road. You get a different perspective doing that than simply reading a few chapters a day. Go through an entire book at a single sitting and it changes the meaning.
  8. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    I don't believe it is unscriptural or against the nature of God, but I see no need to continue arguing over it either.
  9. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    The difference is outward behavior verses reality. It is like the difference in obeying for appearance sake or out of fear as opposed to from the heart.
  10. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    When you are going to attempt to be a teacher, it kind of helps to know the scriptures. 2 Chronicles 18:18-22 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
  11. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    I noticed you did not answer any of my questions. What is your answer to where evil originated? It is a great mystery. That is it. Then there is the other fall back of free will, but that doesn't explain where evil originated. If God did not create Lucifer with the iniquity as part of him at the start, that means iniquity can be produced out of thin air, which means that anyone or anything in heaven could become evil at any time. Michael the archangel could become evil if that were true, but I don't believe it is. So what is your answer for how evil could be discovered in an angel that didn't have evil to begin with? What made him become evil in a perfect environment? Why would God create an angel he knew would go bad? When God spoke of creating everything good, that didn't include angels. They already existed. By the way, the Bible states that there are numerous sins that will keep a person from inheriting the Kingdom of God. I have pointed this out time and again. Those who hold to OSAS say that nothing they do can keep them from making it to heaven, which means they deny scripture. The Bible says no drunkard shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, but they say a saved drunkard shall inherit the Kingdom of God. Does that show they don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture? How about the unpardonable sin of speaking against the Holy Ghost? Anyone not mute could do that, including a Christian. When people say the unpardonable sin is unbelief, which contradicts scripture, does that mean they reject inerrancy of scripture?
  12. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    By the way, if that other scripture applies about God being righteous, you all are guilty of going contrary to it for allowing for God to use evil spirits or evil in general to bring about his will.
  13. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, and it states that Lucifer was perfect in all his ways, not perfect. Big difference. Prove me wrong.
  14. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    Lucifer had iniquity on the inside that had not been manifested. It was discovered later on. For a long time, he was perfect in his outward behavior. Free will doesn't adequately address how iniquity came into being otherwise. The best anyone can come up with is to say it is some kind of great mystery. If nobody can do better than that, how can they come back and say I am wrong? As for Heybro, how do you know I got anything wrong? Why should I change my mind about anything because someone comes here and chastises me for getting things so mixed up when I am a Royal Member? I am also an ordained minister. I have also read the Bible through more than 15 times. I have also taken Bible courses, read a great deal of writings by early church members. Where do you get all of this knowledge and insight where you feel you are qualified to rebuke me? There are people here saying God created Lucifer knowing he would rebel. That is fine and acceptable. We have people saying God uses demonic spirits and evil to accomplish his will, and that is fine and acceptable, even though the way they are using scripture, it would seem to go against God's nature. We are not talking about some great heresy or even anything in the SOF, which I read very carefully. We are talking about whether or not God is all powerful, or he lets his creation do things he doesn't want them to do. I challenge anyone here to explain why God created Lucifer knowing he would fall if that was not his will? Why would God place a tree in the garden when he knew Adam and Eve would fall as a result of it's fruit if that was not his will? Why would God let the serpent into the garden if he knew he would tempt Eve and she would fall if that was not his will? Why would God let the devil continue to cause problems for man if it was not his will? The idea everything is happening against his will makes God out as very weak, and it goes against scripture. The Bible is full of instances that prove God knows what will happen, and then it is fulfilled, down to things like Peter denying the Lord 3 times and dying as a result of being crucified. The Old Testament tells us all Judas will do, and he carries it out like a robot, down to how he dies, and others obey the prophecies down to the amount of money he was given. That is all by chance? The very notion is ludicrous.
  15. Butero

    God's sovereign choice

    Of course they are not, because they are God's elect. Lucifer couldn't have fallen unless God intended things to happen as they did, because he is all powerful.
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