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Found 9 results

  1. Some people believe the Day of the Lord will begin at the 6th seal where it is written, "the great day of His wrath is come." Others think this is just an announcement and the real Day will begin with the 7th seal. I believe the Day MUST start in one of these two places. Please give which of these two points (6th seal or 7th seal) you believe is the true START of the Day of the Lord, and your argument as to why. (Note, this will not include any arguments that the Day of the Lord will be the last event of the 70th week, or the theory that the Day will come with His coming to Armageddon. I already know these two theories are bogus.)
  2. I need input. Some people suggest God's wrath begins at the 6th seal where it is written that "the day of His wrath has come." Others suggest that is only the sign; His wrath really starts at the 7th seal with the first trumpet judgment. Some even suggest His wrath will not start until He returns to earth. I personally think wrath begins at the earthquake at the 6th seal. Where then does God's wrath really begin?
  3. What does Paul really teach about the rapture? Does he gives us ANY timing information? 1 The. 4 & 5 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. I am sure we all can read these verses, and most understand that some day God is going to catch up all who are alive and in Christ, and I must add, IN FELLOWSHIP with Him. (I don’t think a born again person out of fellowship with Him will be caught up: that would be people with sin on their conscience that is unconfessed. Some may disagree.) Notice 5:1: “times” and “seasons.” Paul makes it clear he has already told them the times and seasons of the rapture in relation to the Day of the Lord, so here he wrote, “you have no need that I write…”. Why mention the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after the classic rapture verse? It is because the Day of the Lord has a close association with the rapture. We will see that the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. Paul is giving us timing information here, but not direct. He is telling us that the rapture or catching up will be when people are saying “peace and safety.” Are people of the world thinking “peace” today? I think most are. Are most people in the world feeling safe today? Maybe not so much right now with the Cornoavirus. But concerning war, I think most are feeling safe from war at the present time. Question: will people be feeling “peace and safety” after the entire 70th week has passed? World population will be cut DRASTICALLY. The entire world may be in darkness. I think it is fair to say, most will be scared nearly to death, wondering what is coming next. In my mind, “peace and safety” are FAR more likely to be thought and spoken today than after the days of great tribulation are over. Just my opinion. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Why would Paul associate the rapture or catching up of the church with The day of the Lord which will come as a thief ? This is his second reference to this. Again, it is because there is a very close association between the two. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. Now Paul assures us that God is not setting any appointments for us with His wrath. Paul is associating “wrath” with the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord. These terms are interchangeable. If people are not appointed to wrath, then they are to “obtain salvation.” What is Paul’s meaning here? Remember, the theme of this passage is the rapture. It is very clear: Paul is showing us a paradigm: comparing those IN Christ with the sinner not in Christ. Either people have an appointment with His wrath, or they don’t. WE don’t. THEY do. Either people will get caught up (the rapture) (“obtain salvation”) and get to “live together with Him" (So shall we ever be with the Lord) or they get left behind to face wrath. Notice in 4:18 we are to spread comfort, and in 5:11. Both are the result of knowing about the rapture. It is VERY clear Paul is still talking about the rapture, but is giving us timing information. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. What is this “sudden destruction” That will come upon all those left behind? Note that the “peace and safety” time of the rapture is the very same time as the "sudden destruction." WE get caught up, THEY get sudden destruction. Notice what happened when God resurrected the elders of the Old Covenant. Matthew 27: 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, What is happening here? These are the elders of the Old Testament: some, like Adam, would have been dead for many centuries! The particles that once made up their bodies - most especially those from before the flood – could have been scattered for many miles, or be several miles deep. When God brings those particles together in an instant of time, these verses show us that this event caused a great earthquake. Here the earthquake came with Jesus died, God pulled their bodies together when Jesus died, the graves were opened when Jesus died, but they arose when Jesus arose. No one could be raised to a resurrection body before Jesus as He was the firstfruits. Note that when God raised the two witnesses, again there was an earthquake. (I believe the two witnesses will be resurrected with all the Old Testament saints.) The earthquake came from all the Old Testament saints, not the two witnesses. Again people from before the flood will be resurrected. It will be a most terrible earthquake - as shown at the 7th vial. These verses show us a precedent: when the long dead are resurrected, it is going to cause an earthquake. I believe these verses give us proof that when God raises the dead in Christ (bodies buried around the world) that it is going to cause a great, worldwide earthquake. I think this is going to be Paul’s “sudden destruction.” It will begin the moment those alive and in Christ are called up. They may just begin to feel the ground shake when they are caught up. Where then in Revelation could we place the rapture? It must come just before the DAy of the Lord begins. That would be at the 6th seal. It is no surprise then that the 5th seal is for church age martyrs, and they are told they must wait for judgment for the very last martyr killed as they were – as church age martyrs. What would cause a certain church age martyr to be the FINAL church age martyr? Of course, the rapture event that will END the church age, so no more church age martyrs. So in reality they were told that judgment is not going to start until after the rapture of the church ends the church age and brings in the Day of the Lord. Now we can see why Paul wrote of the Day of the Lord just three verses after the rapture: it will be the rapture events that will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord and start God’s wrath on earth. WE have no appointments with His wrath so are caught up, but THEY get the sudden destruction start of His wrath. Therefore I submit that Paul DOES give us timing for his rapture: just before wrath, and as the trigger for wrath. In Revelation that would be at or a moment before the 6th seal start of the Day of His wrath. Does this fit with a posttrib rapture? No. Plain and simple.
  4. Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Question: are these verses telling us of ONE TIME these signs will be seen, as a sign for ONE EVENT? Or are these verses telling us of TWO DIFFERENT signs for TWO DIFFERENT events? There are more: Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
  5. I hope all the participants here know, Revelation is written in an order. Since John numbered so many things for sequencing, why would anyone suppose it is OUT of order? As I read it, Jesus begins this book right where John was at the time, around 95 AD. In chapter 21, we see John is beyond the thousand year reign of Christ, so far far into our future today. It just makes sense then that somewhere between chapters 1 and chapters 21, is where the church is TODAY. I hope then that all the writers here will show us where they perceive the church is today in the book of Revelation. I am not interested in preterist thought - only those that believe much of Revelation is still future need answer. Next, I would like to see where everyone places the start of the Day of the Lord, and WHY. Next, where do people see the start of the 70th week and why. Finally, where do people see the exact midpoint, and why. Since Revelation already HAS an order, that is a chronology, I will not change it. I think the Holy Spirit knew and knows the sequence of events that is coming. Therefore, I believe any theory that must rearrange Revelation to work will immediately be suspect and in the end will be proven wrong. Further, I am convinced that it is the 70th week that is INSIDE the seals scroll, and that all 7 seals must be opened before the 70th week can begin. I see the 70th week then beginning with the 7th seal that allows the book to be opened. therefore the trumpets will come in the first half of the week. With that said, John TELLS US where the Day of the Lord, or the Day of His wrath begins: right at the 6th seal. Next, I see the 70th week beginning right at the 7th seal, and I see the midpoint right at the 7th trumpet. I see the week end at the 7th vial. therefore the entire week is marked by 7's. I find it amusing that people imagine they can move events around (rearranging) revelation to fit a theory. I think it would be far wiser to create a theory from the book AS WRITTEN. I find such a theory fits all end times scriptures.
  6. Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Years ago, in the course of my eschatological studies, I came across someone, I don't remember whom, that suggested that the "earth dwellers" was a kind of technical term for those who receive the mark of the beast and worship him in the last days. The statement meant little to me at the time, nevertheless it was filed away in my memory for a future day. Years later that day came. It was at the end of a time in my life, a period of God's correction of my eschatological beliefs. Over the course of many months my fervent pretribulationism was challenged and suffered many devastating blows. These were not the assaults of men, but of the Word of God upon a system of belief that was fashionable within the circles of my fellowship, but entirely without scriptural foundation. However, I was stubborn and not prone to change, so, as long as there was even a single verse I could hold on to that appeared to indicate that the church wouldn't be around for the great tribulation, I remained steadfastly pre-trib in my belief and preaching. The one verse that I had remaining, out of what had been seemingly a multitude, was Rev 3:10. "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev 3:10) I thought, surely this verse was clear, the church will be kept from the hour of temptation, we will not go through the great tribulation. I was very confident in my understanding of "kept ... from" (tēreō ek), I had spent much time studying and considering what that means. I defended the teaching, that the faithful church in Philadelphia would be kept from or out of the hour of temptation and that it wasn't saying that we would be kept through it, as many post-tribbers teach. (It is true that God will keep the 144,000 and the woman of Rev 12 who is hid and fed in the wilderness, both of these he keeps through the period of His wrath, but the church is out of here first.) I still have confidence that "out of" is the right understanding, God will remove His own before His wrath is poured out. So, I had my one verse for the pre-trib rapture, Rev 3:10. However, I was still unsettled. The problem was that the weight of the rest of the Scriptures contradicted my understanding of this one verse. Then came that day, that's when I remembered that someone had said that "earth dwellers" was a technical term for the Beast worshipers. Rev 3:10 used that term (earth dwellers), "them that dwell upon the earth". So, I began to verify that idea and then apply it to this passage. What I found brought a harmony in my understanding of the eschatological texts. "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev 3:10) When considering Rev 3:10, it is very important to understand the focus of the trial in context. It is that which will allow you to rightly understand what the notable hour of temptation is. In this verse, the focus is said to be upon the earth dwellers, “them that dwell upon the earth.” “The earth dwellers” is a technical term throughout the eschatological portions of the New Testament. The term is the combination of two Greek words (gē and katoikeō or a variation thereof). It always refers to those dwelling on the earth that worship the Beast and receive his mark (even in Rev 12:12). This can be understood to be true by observing this combination of words in the following texts. Jesus says concerning the Day of the LORD: Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Jesus uses this combination of words in an eschatological context. He says that the earth dwellers are going to be surprised by the Lord's coming and His wrath on the day of the Lord. They will be caught suddenly, unawares (Luke 21:34; 1Thes 5:3). However, Paul clearly teaches that the Day of the LORD will not overtake the watching believer as a thief. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. So “them that dwell on the face of the whole earth” excludes the watching saints. This term is not all inclusive. It refers only to those who are caught unawares or suddenly by Christ's return. (The very elect will not be surprised, because we expect His coming and He has given us events to watch for which will indicate the season of His return and our gathering together unto Him.) Next, let's look at what John records concerning the two witnesses: Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. Notice here that the earth-dwellers rejoice at the death of God’s two witnesses, which no believer would do. These earth-dwellers are followers of the Beast and False Prophet and they rejoice when God's two witnesses are overcome and killed by the Beast. So, again we see that earth-dwellers excludes the saints. Let's look at another instance of John's use of this technical term. Here, it is used for those who are deceived by the false prophet: Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. Take notice that the earth-dwellers here are deceived by the False Prophet into worshiping the Beast and receiving his mark, but Jesus said that it was not possible for the “very elect” to be deceived (Matt. 24:24). Eleven verses in the book of Revelation contain this technical term for those who worship the Beast and receive his mark. Recognizing that the focus of the temptation in Rev 3:10 is upon the earth dwellers, we know that it refers to God's fierce wrath at the beginning of the day of the Lord and not Satan's wrath (Rev 12:12) upon the elect and Israel in the great tribulation. It is God’s tribulation upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipers, who will persecute the church and Israel in the great tribulation, that is referenced in Rev 3:10. The persecuted saints are said to be kept from the hour of temptation, that is, removed from the sphere of God’s, day of the Lord, wrath. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb
  7. Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Can someone please help me? Can you tell me if all these verses refer to the same event? Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: Isa 2:13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, Isa 2:14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, Isa 2:15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, Isa 2:16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. Isa 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. Isa 2:18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish. Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Isa 2:20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; Isa 2:21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Are each of these passages speaking of the same event? It appears that they are. Please provide proof if they are not all referring to the same event. Thanks
  8. I don't hate you because of what you believe either, but I strongly disagree with that premise you made about the Church and asleep saints. Per 1 Thess.4:13-17, Matt.24:31 and Mark 13:27, those Scriptures make a distinction about Christ gathering His Church both from Heaven (asleep saints), and from the earth ("which are alive and remain") within the same timing and joined to Him at His returning. So how can you infer that it's impossible for the Church to go through the great tribulation because of some idea that it would require the "asleep" saints to be raised to go through it? That kind of idea goes directly against those written Scriptures quoted above. How? The Asleep Saints That Have Died: 1Thes 4:13-14 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. (KJV) The Alive Saints Still On Earth At Christ's Coming: 1Thes 4:16-17 16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (KJV) Even that very 1 Thess.4 Scripture completely debunks the idea some try to use it as one of the biggest proofs that the Church is raptured prior to the tribulation. Paul made a clear distinction between the "asleep" saints that died and the saints "which are alive and remain" unto Christ's coming. Are alive and remain where? On earth! Do the Matt.24 & Mark 13 Scriptures agree with Apostle Paul on that? Yes! Most definitely! The Asleep Saints That Died: Matt 24:29-31 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (KJV) The Alive Saints Still On Earth At Christ's Coming: Mark 13:24-27 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (KJV)
  9. I was studying today the OT and in particular this term "The Day of the Lord." I didn't realize it comes up in Scripture 29 times... 24 times in the OT and 5 in the NT. What do you think of this term? What does it mean to you? God bless, GE
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