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Hello everyone, I went along and believed in the Pre-Trib rapture because I just went along with what the preachers said. I was guilty of not studying the Word and asking the Lord for His wisdom. Well, a few years ago, I heard someone on youtube talk about the post-trib rapture. So of course I had to do some investigating and the Scriptures that she gave were Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. I also asked the Holy Spirit, to show me truth. One night I just could not sleep so I went into a room and opened the Scriptures. I was studying all night and the Lord showed me that we were going to be here. We needed to go through the tribulation and that it would purify His Church, the Bride of Christ. I believe we will be here to the end. There are many verses that exhort , "He who endures to the end". I believe a little differently than most Post-Tribbers. I believe that we will actually be here while the plagues and bowls of God's wrath are being poured out. But we will be supernaturally protected while the plagues and wrath are being poured out, we will be raptured, while the wicked are facing judgment. Everything, the rapture, the judgment of the wicked will be happening simultaneously….So bear with me, while I present my case. Matthew 13:37-43 King James Version (KJV) 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of Man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the Kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 24:31 King James Version (KJV) 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds(should say from the four corners of the earth…mandela effect), from one end of heaven to the other. Revelation 14:15-20 King James Version (KJV) 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 King James Version (KJV) 5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. So we are told that we will the know the times and the seasons but not the day or the hour. We are told that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night BUT YE, BRETHREN, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF. We who are awake and sober, will be ready. Revelation 15 is about the Seven Plagues Revelation 16 is the Vials of God's Wrath being poured out….. Revelation 16:1-16 King James Version (KJV) Vials of God's Wrath being poured out….. 16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. 4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. 8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Right in the middle of the vials of wrath being poured out of this chapter, Jesus comes like a thief!!! But we will be supernaturally protected like the Israelites in Goshen during the plagues in Egypt. Or Like Noah and his family on the ark. Revelation 6:6 King James Version (KJV) 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. The Holy Spirit is the oil and the wine. We have the Holy Spirit as believers in Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit was not taken out of the way by leaving, He merely stepped aside to let the ac come into power, to allow God's Will to be done. He is still present because God said do not hurt the oil and the wine, aka Holy Spirit. (I will provide that Matthew 25-The Parable of the 10 Virgins as a reference of the oil being the Holy Spirit) Revelation 16:15 is a good indicator that Jesus is coming to get us at the very end. We will be caught up in the twinkling of the eye while judgment is being poured out on the wicked. I have more…but this will have to do for now…. I welcome your thoughts! But I just have one thing more to say. I still love all my brothers and sisters in Christ who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture. If Christ does come to get us before, then HALLELUJAH!!! PRAISE GOD!!! BUT IF NOT, WE SHOULD ALWAYS BE PREPARED FOR THE WORST. SO THAT WE WILL BE A TESTIMONY UNTO JESUS!

At the rapture "the dead in Christ rise first" 1 Thess 4 ... at the "first resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 which is part of the Rev 19-Rev 20:5 second coming event -- When Christ "comes again" to take all the saints to heaven "to My Father's house" as in John 14:1-3 It is after the tribulation. How about Matt 24? 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. ... 29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. It is just ONE event - the second coming: John 14:1 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. Christ does not say "I will come again... and again... and again..." It is sudden and surprising Matt 24 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 1 Thess 5: . 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 2 Thess 1: 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction

Matthew 24 "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" It is at the John 14:1-3 "second coming" where "I will come again and RECEIVE you to Myself that WHERE I am there you may be also". Thus the "Dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1 Thess 4 at the "FIRST resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 that occurs at the second coming described in Matthew 24, and John 14:1-3 and Rev 19-20:5 One Bible detail that helps us keep all this straight is to remember that all Bible timelines are contiguous units themselves. So the 70 years of Jeremiah discussed by Daniel in Dan 9:1-6 are all "contiguous years" back-to-back. No inserting "gaps of undefined time length" into the middle of the contiguous 70 year timeline. All bible timelines work that way - including the 70 week (490 year) timeline.

My Post trib position (and the Bible post-trib) is also post-wrath rapture (i.e --2nd coming) -- is clear in this text. Post-trib: Matthew 24 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24 Post wrath: 1 Thess 4 "the dead in Christ rise FIRST" Rev 21 "This is the FIRST resurrection..blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST resurrection over THESE the second death has no power" Rev 19 is the 2nd coming - rapture and resurrection of the saints. It is after the 7 last plagues wrath of Rev 16. Keys to Bible prophecy A. All Bible timelines are contiguous -- just like Daniel 9:1-7 points out - with the 70 years of Jeremiah. B. All apocalyptic timelines use day-for-year symbolism just like the Daniel 9 seventy week (490 day) prophecy of Daniel. .So also the 2300 days of Daniel 8, and 1260 days of Daniel 7, and Rev 11, 12,13 C. Later writers use the symbols employed by earlier writers - assuming that the reader is already informed about symbols previously explained. Note: There is another thread on the post-trib position but I failed to notice that it is pre-wrath. So I think I mistakenly posted thinking it was "post-trib and or post-wrath" when it was post-trib and also pre-wrath on that other thread. Which is not my view.

The debate continues, and I suppose it will until/if the church finds itself recognizing that the antichrist/man of sin/beast/son of perdition/abomination that cuases desolation/etc. has been revealed and recognized. So, here is what I am asking, this is the question that this thread is about: Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either: a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation an invisible coming of Jesus for the church a two part second advent a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church From my perspective, in case it is not obvious, the only thing invisible about Jesus coming, is that it is that the pre-trib rapture is invisible in the sense that it is no where to be found in scripture. Some of you disagree, what I am asking then, is for the biblical basis, the scriptural evidence, for one or more of the bulleted points (•) above. Some of you are so sure that Jesus will return before the great tribulation, that certainly you must have biblical evident of the truth or likelyhood, of the pre-trib return of Christ. To those who want to reply in this thread: Please stick to the premise of it, scriptural evidence for a coming of Jesus to catch up His church to be with Him prior to the great tribulation. I know that I am asking a lot of people to stay on topic. I understand that people are passionate about their eschatological beliefs. However, please exercise some self control and not start in with a statement of or defense of your own, other than pre-trib persuasion. Let's let this thread be limited to actual scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture. Opposing viewpoints are o.k., but limit those to just enough to present an answer to any posts claiming to present scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture, without making it about what you believe instead. To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example: Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion, and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief. Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence. Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of God, and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine. The idea here, is to present some quality reasons to believe in the pre-trib rapture. So here you have an opportunity. Please, give it a shot if you think that you have scriptural evidence. Thanks in advance

In the topic of eschatology, few things are debated with more passion than the timing of the rapture with respect to the great tribulation. In online forums there are many opinions expressed. Some of them in my opinion are so far out there that few people if any take them very seriously. Some people read these topics and will express their opinion that the topics are not important. Somehow though, they seem to think it important to express their opinion that it isn't important. I have not quite figured that one out yet. One of the opinions often expressed is the tongue-in-cheek position:" I am pan tribulation". At the risk of possibly offending those people who say they are pan tribulation, I say this: "The pan-trib position is supposed to be cute or humorous, and I suppose it is the first time one hears it. By now though I am sure that I have heard it over 100 times, and to me it has become a worn-out old joke. I have been hearing it since the 1970s, so pardon me if I don't laugh too hard. Still there are those who are reading this post who have no doubt not heard of the pan-trib position even now. For their sakes I will explain the pan-trib position. "I do not care if the rapture is before, during, or after the tribulation, as long as it all pans out". I have very little respect for the pan-trib position. I suspect that people who hold that position fall into one of several categories: Perhaps they are too lazy to study the Bible. Perhaps they feel they are underqualified to have a real opinion. Perhaps they detest debate. Perhaps they are afraid to express their opinion. Sometimes they will make the point that eschatology is not a salvational issue and therefore is not worth having a strong opinion about. It often seems to escape their notice though, that almost all of the Bible is not about salvational issues, so I would have to guess that most of the Bible is also not important to them. Considering how much space (in the New Testament especially) is devoted to eschatology by the apostles and even by Jesus Himself I find it extremely difficult and even disrespectful to imply that the things that Jesus said and that the apostles (who were inspired by God to write) expressed, are of little importance. Coming up with flippant, worn-out remarks does not in my mind, justify what seems to be an aire of superiority in being wishy-washy about Scripture. I know I am on my high horse. I know I am often on my high horse. I know that I am on my high horse frequently lately. You can reply to this post and inform me of that if you wish, but don't think you're telling me anything that I do not already know and freely admit. As I have already stated there are many opinions and many positions in the field of eschatology. The different positions contradict each other of course and most of them (if not all of them) contradict Scripture at at least one point. No more than one position can be 100% accurate and perhaps none of them are. In spite of the fact that I have used a lot of words so far in this post, I really only want to invite comments on the following proposition: There are many reasons that people may use to explain why they believe what they believe about eschatology. With respect to the issue of whether or not the rapture is before, during, or after the great tribulation, I believe the following reasons should be discounted. The character of God argument. Some people believe that the church will not go through the great tribulation because it is not within the character of God to allow his church to suffer. This reasoning is invalid because God's people have always been allowed to suffer historically. This is true whether we are talking about the Jews or the Christians, prophets or apostles, martyrs since the time of Christ and even today, and of course Jesus himself who said a servant is not above his master. If God has allowed his people to suffer for thousands of years, how can we think that it is not in God's character to allow such suffering? Wishful thinking. It is so easy for us in the West to find the idea of suffering distasteful. Many of us have never missed a meal even one time in our entire life nor slept without a roof over our head unless it was by choice. We live in a time and in cultures where most people have access to transportation which requires no physical work, access to nearly continual entertainment and access to vast amounts of knowledge that we never had to study to obtain. I read just today that Google claims that the average Android user checks his or her Android 150 times each day. In these days of comfort and convenience, fast food and instant gratification, it is no wonder that some of us cannot conceive of going through a time of suffering and persecution lasting from 3-1/2 to 7 years. However, just because we have had it so easy does not mean there won't be a time when we will have it so hard. I have gone on long enough. I intended to list a lot of reasons which are not valid reasons for believing some of the things that we do believe. It seems to me that in the area of eschatology the only reason to believe anything is because the Bible tells us so. I am sure that many of us believe we believe what the Bible says about these things. It is my observation however that many of us if not most of us believe what we believe by taking preconceived ideas to the Scripture and then interpreting the Scripture in a way that agrees with what we already believe about it, rather than taking Scripture at its word and adjusting our thinking to align with what the Bible itself says. Do we really want to be a people who gather to themselves teachers who will tell us what our itching ears want to hear? Or do we think that the better idea is to be like the Bereans, and search the Scriptures daily to see whether these things be so?