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"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for Matthew 13:44 - over joyit he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field." The bottom line is that we give all of ourselves to obtain all of Him. When we go through with the exchange, we find that what used to matter doesn't anymore. Not only does everything in our lives that It is not possible to encounter One so overwhelming and maintain the status quo.is inconsistent with the kingdom of Godstart to die the moment we encounter Him, but the superior, supernatural reality of His kingdom starts to come alive in us. Affirmations: I WILL NOT BE SATISFIED WITH ONLY A PARTIAL TRANSFORMATION. I ALLOW HIM TO KILL EVERYTHING IN ME THAT WOULD INHIBIT ME FROM BECOMING A MATURE MANIFESTATION OF CHRIST. THE QUEST FOR HIS FACE IS MY ULTIMATE QUEST. Prayer: GOD, I WANT MORE OF YOU AT ANY COST! I WILL PAY ANY PRICE! "...I live by the FAITH OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." (Galatians 2:20) KJV By Hisfaith we fully experience oneness with Jesus and the explosive power of his resurrection working in us. We will be one with Him in His sufferings and we will be one with Him in His death (our death to self). Only then will we be able to experience complete oneness with Him in His resurrection so that we may reach the DESTINY which Jesus has called us to fulfill! (seePhilippians 3:10-12) "I am sure that God who began the good work within you will keep right on helping you grow in His grace until His task within you is finally finished on that day when Jesus Christ returns." -- Philippians 1:6 Living Bible He is asking you to lay down all of the hindrances – all that you have been holding on to, and all that man would try to wrap you in; for He is a collector of grave clothes. They are leftovers and He wants to take them off of you. He will take off all reproach, so that you will only experience approaching His Throne of Grace, in full assurance. He has not come to condemn, but He has come with a drawing heart – a heart to draw you deeper, and deeper and deeper into the things of His Spirit. For as Jonah was swallowed up in the big fish, for disobedience, so He desires to swallow you up in pure obedience; and to hide you inside Himself for protection; to have you hidden from the storm. So you will ride through the storm -- for know that He is the God of provision. He is near you. If only you could see in the spirit, you would never, ever, have fear – fear of man or fear of any circumstance. For you would understand, there is nothing to fear. And as you grow in your own understanding, the knowledge of the goodness of God toward you and for you, you will learn to recognize what is of Him, of His Spirit, and what the demonic would send against you. He is bringing all that you are, into the fullness of what you were CALLED TO BE, for He is the God of completion. Has He not said, 'I am the beginning and the end'? He presents to you; gifts of Himself, gifts of His Spirit, gifts from His Word, gifts of answered prayers, gifts of His anointing to break off yokes, and to draw you closer into His anointing. For truly you have been labeled, and marked; marked by His love, marked by His compassion, set aside, consecrated, made holy as Sons and Daughters of the Most High God. ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY

Isaiah 60:1,2 - "Arise, shine; for your light has come, And the glory of the Lord has risen upon you. For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the Lord will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you.....Then you will see and be radiant, And your heart will thrill and rejoice." Our shining attracts His glory! And it's His glory released in and through us that brings about the greatest transformation in the lives we touch. The breakthrough provided in these promises are connected to one thing -- the manifest presence of God upon us. It's the manifestation of His glory. The command to arise and shine is the process through which we are able to step into the reality of who God says we already are (our inheritance in Christ). The wonderful part of shining for God is that He backs it up. He literally shines through us when our glory is used for His. Affirmations: THE GLORY OF THE LORD HAS RISEN UPON ME. I EXPRESS RADIANCE AS MY HEART THRILLS AND REJOICES. PEOPLE ARE ATTRACTED TO MY LIGHT. "Let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways." - James 1:6-8 Boldness is a missing ingredient in many lives. Many believers struggle with such unworthiness and low self-worth that they cannot imagine God saying anything to them. But the good news of the Gospel is that as believers, we are worthy and righteous -- we just did not have anything to do with it! If we do not understand that we are coming to Him based on His righteousness, we will pray unconvinced, as DOUBLE-MINDED people. Religious teaching combined with the devils strategy, has convinced may Christians that they are unworthy and undeserving, so God would never speak to them. Yet we are worthy for one reason -- that He has forgiven our sins and called us into relationship with Him. "For the light makes everything visible. This is why it is said, 'Awake, O sleeper, rise up from the dead, and Christ will give you light.'" - Ephesians 5:14 Awake and arise, for you have slumbered long enough on the bed of disappointment, rejection, pain, and abandonment. He will cause you to want to live, to declare the glory of the Lord your God in the land of this living. Cast aside everything that holds you back, whether it is a broken dream, a broken vision, a broken promise. He has seen the tears, the pain, and the confusion, but He promises you in His Word that He makes a way where there seems to be no way. Watch Him part the sea in front of you. Be alert to see Him when He comes and parts the sea, for He has a particular place for you to cross over. It will be a place of safety, a place of position, a place of authority. It will be known as 'A Blessed Path of the Highway of Holiness.' Come out of the world. Come in to His Spirit. He longs to talk to you, Spirit to spirit, heart to heart, so you will learn to rise up to high mountains, to the new vision, to the new pathway, to the new purposes, blessings, and provisions. ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY

It is love that causes us to rise up from spiritual sleep and open ourselves to God. Love is the call, and love is the transforming power. Oh! That we would see Jesus at work in and through us in the days to come. The power of love made manifest in the healing of hearts and diseases. The resonance of love in and through us that results in demons recognizing the authority of the sound of love in our voice, causing them to flee. Could it be that they will know we are Christians by our love? OUR FOOD IS TO DO HIS WILL FOR OUR LIFE The heart of abiding faith "leans into God," anticipating His voice, looking for His next move. Like Jesus, we are to be able to say, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent me." (John 4:34) If we are to experience God's presence, we must engage in more definite and persevering prayer. Silence those negative voices. Forget the cutting remarks of relatives. Dismiss the crippling theories of misguided counselors. Rebuke your self-doubt and turn off the broken record of your past failures. Let God redefine you. He alone decides your true potential. Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY

1 Corinthians 2:10 - "Yet to us God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit, for the Holy Spirit searches diligently, exploring and examining everything, even sounding the profound and bottomless things of God." In Him our eyes can think - they see with discernment and understanding. The mind of Christ fuses with our vision, revealing what was impossible to be seen by the narrowness of our perception; we see "In front and behind." Our vision also comes from "The center of the Throne". Not only do we see distant spiritual realities but we are close enough to penetrate and search the depths of God himself. Ephesians 2:6 - "And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together in the heavenly sphere in Christ Jesus". Yet, at the same time being near to God also gives us "eyes within" - eyes which monitor the motives that guide self; inner eyes which stand guard against sin. The more our vision opens up, the greater we see God and His Holiness. The slightest sin in our lives becomes significant; we are compelled to live pure before Him. Affirmations: I AM LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT AS OPPOSED TO MY INTELLECT TO BRING FORTH THE PROMISE OF GOD WITHIN ME (MY DESTINY). I AM IN LABOR, INCREASING IN WISDOM, AS JESUS WAS IN HIS TIME OF PREPARATION. Luke 2:52 - "And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and years, and in favor with God and man." Romans 14:17 - "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit." The Kingdom is contained by the presence of the Spirit of God. Releasing the treasure that you carry is the big challenge for the Christian life. We have been called from eternity towards time. What faith means is that we live FROM HEAVEN TOWARDS EARTH. Christianity in its present state is that we live from earth towards heaven. Our focus is to call out to God to fix a problem. Yet He has equipped and assigned us to function in His authority to deal with the problem. Learn to linger with Him. Let Him embrace your tears. Let Him embrace your temple. Let Him become known to you as the 'Embraceable Savior.' He is going to brace you, and brace you, and brace you up. And He is going to erase the fingerprints of man. For man has been sent in for destruction, after destruction. It has not been His hand of destruction. Let Him captivate your mind, your heart, your body, and your soul, until you are so devoured in the knowledge of the goodness and the love of God. He would baptize you today, fresh, and strong, in the fire of the warmth of His love. He would take hearts that have grown cold from pain and rejection, and say, 'Beat again unto life.' Pick up the rhythm of His Spirit. Cast down death, and pain, and begin to jump. Begin to clap. Begin to set your spirit free, to press through, so He can press out of you, and bring forth the report of the Lord. Know that many things will be changed, for He is FOR you, not against you. "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls, For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." - Matthew 11:28-30 ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY

Revelation 4:6 - "And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal." The source of God's Peace is God Himself. The glass sea is a symbol: there are no ripples, no waves, no anxieties troubling God. The Lord is never worried never in a hurry nor without an answer. The sea around Him is perfectly still and totally calm. All our victories flow out from being seated here with Him. John 3:3 - Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth: no one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again." We must know by revelation that we are not struggling to get up into heaven; rather that we were born there in spiritual rebirth. Psalm 110:1,2 - The Lord (God) says to my Lord (the Messiah), "Sit at My right hand, until I make Your adversaries Your footstool. The Lord will send forth from Zion the scepter of Your strength; rule, then, in the midst of Your foes." Ephesians 2:6 - "and raised us up with Him, and made us sit with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" We have been raised up and seated with Christ in heavenly places. This is why the Holy Spirit continues to speak to us that the worship of God is our first response in battle. Affirmations: I POSITION MYSELF IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD AND SIT AT REST IN THE KNOWLEDGE THAT CHRIST HAS ALREADY MADE MY ENEMIES THE FOOTSTOOL FOR MY FEET. AS I REST IN HIS VICTORY I RULE IN THE MIDST OF MY ENEMIES. Focus, (Romans 10:17 - "Faith comes from hearing and hearing, by the word of Christ."), and intensity are steps we take to move truth from our heads to our hearts. The command to look intently (see James 1:25) and to meditate continuously (see Philippians 4:8) would be examples of using focus and repetition. Repeating healing prayers pours divine light continually into our beings, until we are entirely sanctified -- spirit, soul, and body (see 1 Thessalonians 5:23). We become the radiance of His glory because we have bathed ourselves in His glory continuously. Darkness, sickness, and demons have now fled because of the light of His glory. "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him: they eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His CALLING........" - Ephesians 1:17,18 Today is the day that he pours fresh oil into your understanding. He does not want you left to your own understanding. He wants His understanding to bring you under Him, to stand up in Him. So that no matter what happens – on your left, on your right, below or above – you are standing under Him. He devours all that devour you, and He comes against all that comes against you. For He has not left you to stand alone. Detach from your understanding. Learn to soar high in His understanding. Let His understanding bring you into a higher way of thinking, into a higher way of living, on the highway of holiness, for He causes you to walk in peace, and in power, and in a sound mind. Lift your hands, even though they may be weary, lift them. Let His Spirit come, and let Him lift your hands high into Spirit, so that He can cause you to soar above circumstances, through the midst of circumstances – untouched by fire, but coming forth in a sound mind.the ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY

We must be a burning and shining people who know where we are headed, fixing our eyes on our destiny, if we are going to awaken broken and disillusioned hearts! Jesus is not looking at our intentions, wishes, or knowledge of what is right. He is looking at our works! Are we allowing the grace of God to produce holy living and ministering to others in our lives, or have we received the grace of God in vain? "I know your works......" - Revelation 3:15 CONTROLLING OUR PASSION AND INTENSITY Philippians 3:14 - "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." It is high time to humble ourselves and press into God. Today is indeed the moment, hour, and day of Salvation! Christ in us is indeed the hope of God's glory. Now is our transformation time to transition into God's plan (our DESTINY) for Kingdom multiplication on earth. We can control the PASSION and INTENSITY with which we live our lives. To get the fruitful life that God has purposed for us, we must go out on a limb away from the ordinary and complacent. NOT SETTLING FOR LESS Behold, it's time to stop hiding behind walls of fear (What if such and such happens?); it's time to stop hiding behind walls of doubt (It'll never happen); it's time to stop hiding behind walls of disappointment (It didn't happen). Winter has passed. Rise up and come away! "For behold, the winter is past, The rain is over and gone. The flowers have already appeared in the land...." - Song of Solomon 2:11,12 ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY

Why I am Post-Millennialist (or a Spiritual Post Bi-Millennianist)! Post-Millennialism teaches that Christ comes back after the Millennium (portrayed as 1,000 years which is 10 - the number of perfection cubed; 10 x 10 x 10 = 1,000)! In Pre-Millennialism, Jesus is said to come back before the Millennium! There are three main pre-millennial schools, each of which relate to the specific timing of the Tribulation (pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib). On the other hand, with regard to Post-Millennialism, there are two main schools, firstly that that Millennium is situated here upon this earth which will become more and more Christianised over time, a view which is held by many theonomists, but which I would happen to reject. Secondly, that the Millennium refers to the reign of Christ over the souls of dead saints, who are currently ruling with Christ, in heaven ever since his ascension, and that this (millennial reign), will last until his second coming. This second view is the one I which hold to, basically it places the Millennium in heaven, where Christ rules over the souls of disincarnate spirits, during what is called the “intermediate state.” My own position has sometimes been called the A-Millennium view. But, I would reject that title, as it implies that there is no millennium at all, a position which I certainly and clearly have rejected. Also in much A -Millennium eschatology, Christ’s current reign is said to be within the hearts of his people (saints), many living upon this earth, which again as I stated I firmly reject, as I would regard the Millennial reign of Christ as exclusively situated in heaven. For this reason to save confusion, I am a Post-Millennialist, but one who would place Christ’s (spiritual) reign in heaven, as he is currently reigning, and this isn't a physical reign upon this earth, or within people’s hearts, he’s reigning in heaven NOW! Evidences for my position abound, namely Revelation 20:4 states that those people in the Millennium are said to be “souls,” which indicates only those dead saints in the intermediate state. Also, throughout Revelation, we repeatedly read of God’s throne being in heaven, for instance Revelation 4:2: “a throne set in heaven,” and Revelation 20:4 which states: “I saw thrones” which is speaking of those dead saints who are ruling with Christ, in heaven, during the intermediate state. So I’d argue that the Millennial reign has a heavenly setting, it is not based upon this earth, and neither is it within the hearts of God’s people, as many A-Millennialists have claimed! Also consider the idiocy of Christians assuming that Christ does not reign during the church age, or that this reign has no name, in either the Bible or in Christian Theology! It does have a name! it’s called the Millennium or thousand years! The phrase “a thousand years” is used six times in Revelation 20, traditionally, this refers to the Biblical period of human (biblical) history, personally I would not take it literally, a thousand is simply ten, which is the number of perfection cubed. However, of these six occurrences of the number one thousand, four refer from Adam to Christ, and two of these “one thousand years,” which specifically mention dead souls “reigning with Christ” at Revelation 20:4 and 20:6, apply to the church age, but with regard to Christ’s heavenly reign. Now seeing that this reign must be situated in heaven, and as every relevant mention of God’s throne in the Apocalypse is indeed set in heaven, the 1,000 years of verse 4 added to the 1,000 years of verse 6, gives us a period of approximately 2,000 years; from Christ’s ascension until his second coming which is the natural end of the intermediate state. For death itself is finished (done away with) at Christ’s second coming (1st Corinthians 15:23-26), this happens; “at the last trump” (1st Corinthians 15:52), that at Christ’s second coming, and not one thousand years after the second coming, as in Pre-Millennial eschatology. I have come to this position of mine after much dialogue with local Jehovah’s Witnesses (JW). I was intrigued that they, parroting the “latest light” from their Watchtower Society, claimed that Christ’s reign was not instituted at his ascension, despite Colossians 1:13 so clearly stating in the present tense, that at the time Paul had written this, Christ, was already a king over his own kingdom! These JWs would then reason that Christ’s kingdom was instituted in the year 1919, but as I pondered this, I came to realise that the Pre-Millennial view, so beloved of American Dispensationalists and their disciples within the Pentecostal movement, had many similarities to the JW position. Both positions failed to grasp that in scripture, be it the fall, salvation or Christ’s Kingdom, it’s always the spiritual first and then the physical second. So God was not lying when he said to Adam: “in the day you eat of it you shall surely die” (Genesis 2:17). Adam ate the fruit, but his fall was spiritual immediately, his physical death happened much later. So too in salvation, we are saved spiritually first, but the physical redemption of the body is a still future promise, after Christ’s second coming, and that despite what the Television money preachers on TBN and GOD TV will tell you (Romans 8:23). Finally, the first resurrection of Revelation 20:6 is obviously spiritual, (i.e. it refers to the salvation of the soul/spirit), that is of disincarnate “souls,” who are currently reigning with Christ during the intermediate state, which is a period of possibly 1,000 + 1,000 = 2,000 years, if you wish to take these numbers literally as American Dispensationalists like to insist upon. Now although it is not specifically mentioned by name, the second resurrection must be the redemption of the physical body mentioned at Romans 8:23, for remember that the Bible puts the spiritual first and the physical second with regard to both the fall and also to salvation. This (physical) salvation happens at the last trump (1st Corinthians 15:52), that is at Christ’s second coming, and not one thousand years after the expiration of some strange earthly millennium, of the saved and unsaved, living together as both disincarnate spirits (souls) as well as people with their souls upon this earth! Finally, remember that the “day of the Lord” (1st Thessalonians 5:2), which comes as a thief in the night, isn’t referring to the first part of some double-barrelled second coming, called the “rapture,” there is only one second coming and that permanently ends the intermediate state, which I maintain is the (spiritual) reign of Christ in heaven over the souls of his disincarnate saints. Thank you for considering my point of view. I am far from perfect and I'm open to help and correction. Robert

What is "the first resurrection"? Is it when the "dead in Christ rise first"? Is it the resurrection of the "blessed and holy"? the saints? All of them? or just some of them? What is your view? It appears to me that the "dead in Christ rise first" because they are in the "first resurrection" and over these the 2nd death has no power at all. Almost all Christian groups agree that Revelation 19 describes the 2nd coming - and that there were no chapter divisions in the Greek text of Revelation as written by John. Revelation 20 starts off then in the context of Revaltion 19 - at the 2nd coming. (Sorry -- I still don't know how to change the text format to get rid of the double spacing in the Bible quote below) Revelation 20 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Those included in the "first resurrection" a. Those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God b. And those which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands So certainly in the case above - the "First resurrection" includes the saints - possibly "all of the saints" in all of time depending on how far back one finds the "beast" to have had influence and to have persecuted the saints -- since it appears that the second death has power over all who are raised 1000 years later in the second resurrection Here is what Paul says about it... the saints do rise first. 1 Thess 4 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. Your thoughts? in Christ, Bob

I am shocked at people denying Christ's work as King: On another thread, I posted at length on a thread attempting to prove that Christ is currently King over his Kingdom, this Kingdom rule is spiritual, for since his ascension into heaven, Christ has been ruling as King over his deceased saints (in heaven), this is not some geographic reign based upon this earth, but a spiritual reign which will last until his second coming. Robert Redmond in his "New Systematic Theology of the Christian faith" on page 990, footnote 18 confirms this interpretation, that the "Kingdom of Heaven / Kingdom of God," both terms being fully interchangeable: "refers primarily to the reign, dominion or rule of God, and only secondarily to the realm over which his reign is exercised." It has therefore shocked me that I have been personally and repeatedly attacked, as both a (non-Christian) deist, as well as somebody who has been "seduced by the enemy" (meaning Satan), for advocating orthodox Christian theology, which would be accepted world-world in any number of non-American Fundamentalist Christian Churches for two thousand years. I am not some heretic for advocating orthodoxy, American evangelicals might regard their own particular brand of Fundamentalism as "the only Christian truth," but the reality is that other Christians regard theology differently, and as I have discovered, the ungraciousness, and the deliberate misrepresentations of their opponents position discredits their own testimony. Possibly the only way to discuss this online, is in a one on one moderated debate, as it seems that tempers quickly rise, but most annoying of all, it seems that no attempt whatsoever is made to even listen to the other side, by some, who delight in then dictating to the other side a series of deliberate "straw man" misrepresentations which are simply designed discredit me and my statements. When this happens no discussion is even possible, as one side is simply refusing to be fair. May I therefore throw open the offer of a one on one debate. I will outline below a few corrections of the most obvious errors which people have accused me of promoting, I may not respond to posts here in this thread, for the simple reason that I expect to be ignored and constantly misrepresented, however, a one on one debate does interest me. · Am I a Preterist? No I am not, I reject this claim that all prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70, as far as I am concerned, much of the Book of Revelation has still to be fulfilled, such as the appearance of beast, false prophet and mark 666 of chapter 13. · Am I a deist? No, I am not. God is not some wound up clock, moved by nature. God is Triune, an eternal omnipotent being who possesses self-will and sovereignty. In the 1980s I was briefly a Oneness Pentecostal, so the Trinity is now vital to me. · Being a Post-Millennialist don't I believe that things will get better and better? No I do not expect an ever improving world. I have pointed out repeatedly that not all Pre-Millennialists or Post-Millennialists believe and teach exactly the very same thing, the great 19th century Baptist Preacher C.H. Spurgeon was a Pre-Millennialist, yet his type of Pre-Millennialism rejected both the rapture, and the sharp dividing up the Jews from the Church, which almost all American Pre-Millennialists, who are dispensationalist futurists believe and teach. So likewise, my own Post-Millennialism sees the Kingdom (since the ascension and until the second coming), as a spiritual Kingdom which is currently situated in heaven, and I would not regard it as a geographic physical Kingdom upon this earth, which is created by things getting better and better as the Millennial Reign, as most Post-Millennialists will claim. · Do I believe in the rapture? That depends on how you define the rapture? For some people in this forum, whom I note are both American and Fundamentalist, the rapture is defined as "thinking exactly as I do," so by that definition I must reject the rapture. However, if by the rapture you mean that on the last day and at the last hour, the people of God are caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air, then I would say that I would certainly agree with that particular definition of the rapture. · Do I regard the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven as two different Kingdoms? No, God only has one people (Galatians 3:28), and one Kingdom, Robert Redmond in his "New Systematic Theology of the Christian faith" on page 538, points out that the terms "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven" are interchangeable (contrast Matthew 13:11 with Mark 4:11 and Luke 8:10); so "both terms refer to the sovereign rule of God." Remember that Redmond, on page 990, footnote 18 points our that the terms "the Kingdom;" "refers primarily to the reign, dominion or rule of God, and only secondarily to the realm over which his reign is exercised." So when I talk about the Kingdom, I am referring to something which I'd regard as currently spiritual, whilst almost all Post-Millennialists and (American) Pre-Millennialists, when they refer to the Kingdom, they do so not in the primarily sense as the spiritual rule of God, but referring to some geographic location. So we are at cross purposes, in that our definitions of the word "Kingdom" are not the same. · Do I reject the Millennium? No, the words "a thousand years" are used six times in Revelation 20, I would regard four of these as referring from Adam to Christ, and two occurrences, which mention of the reign of Christ (Revelation 20:4 and 6), as referring to Christ's present rule in heaven (a spiritual rule over his deceased saints). So unless I am mistaken, I'd regard the Millennial reign of Christ as spiritual, in heaven, and for two periods of "a thousand years" which makes a Millennial reign of Christ a period of two thousand years from his ascension until his second coming. · Do I reject the idea that Christ will reign upon the earth? No, Revelation 5:10 states of God's saints that: "we shall reign on the earth," so I would expect Christ our King to be here to, whether that is permanently or not I choose not to speculate. However, this reign of Christ on the earth, will be after the Millennial (Spiritual) reign of Christ (in heaven) has finished, at his second coming he returns to this world and only then, in the eternal state, will Christ then establish his physical and geographic (eternal) rule upon this earth from the city of Jerusalem. · Aren't the Jews on the earth and the Church in heaven eternally? No, that's taught in the Schofield Reference Bible notes, but not in the Bible itself. If you look on YouTube for the sermon: "Dispensationalism" by Stuart Olyott, in it he explains rather well the error of dividing up the people one God into two different groups with two different hopes. It's all based upon the faulty hermeneutic of using the Old Testament to interpret the New Testament, rather than the other way a round. · Aren't we arguing over semantics? Well I am not the one insulting others, and condemning people as satanic! As for dispensational theology, so beloved by American Fundamentalists, it has been undergoing a series of radical changes since the publication of the Revised Schofield Reference Bible in 1967. For American Fundamentalists in these forums to ignore challenges coming from their own scholars such as many from Dallas Theological Seminary, is to put your head in the sand! Classical Dispensationalism, as found is your typical Southern Baptist and Pentecostal church at pew level, is seriously being challenged by many of your top and most renouned dispensational scholars, who have developed more moderate forms of dispensational theology.

I have joined today, in a post I mentioned the rapture and would have liked to have posted a link to a sermon on my channel (not by me) on dispensationalism and explaining this system. May I post links here in these chat rooms?

The debate continues, and I suppose it will until/if the church finds itself recognizing that the antichrist/man of sin/beast/son of perdition/abomination that cuases desolation/etc. has been revealed and recognized. So, here is what I am asking, this is the question that this thread is about: Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either: a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation an invisible coming of Jesus for the church a two part second advent a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church From my perspective, in case it is not obvious, the only thing invisible about Jesus coming, is that it is that the pre-trib rapture is invisible in the sense that it is no where to be found in scripture. Some of you disagree, what I am asking then, is for the biblical basis, the scriptural evidence, for one or more of the bulleted points (•) above. Some of you are so sure that Jesus will return before the great tribulation, that certainly you must have biblical evident of the truth or likelyhood, of the pre-trib return of Christ. To those who want to reply in this thread: Please stick to the premise of it, scriptural evidence for a coming of Jesus to catch up His church to be with Him prior to the great tribulation. I know that I am asking a lot of people to stay on topic. I understand that people are passionate about their eschatological beliefs. However, please exercise some self control and not start in with a statement of or defense of your own, other than pre-trib persuasion. Let's let this thread be limited to actual scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture. Opposing viewpoints are o.k., but limit those to just enough to present an answer to any posts claiming to present scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture, without making it about what you believe instead. To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example: Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion, and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief. Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence. Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of God, and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine. The idea here, is to present some quality reasons to believe in the pre-trib rapture. So here you have an opportunity. Please, give it a shot if you think that you have scriptural evidence. Thanks in advance

Matthew 24:12 - "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold." Satan wanats you to become the termperature of the culture that surrounds you, a believer bound by a stone cold heart. By exposure to hardness and darkness in the times that we live in, our love and passion wil begin to cool by degrees. When you see churches and individuals who do not have the energy to reach-out, it's an indication that their love has grown cold. In Numbers 16:37, the Lord told moses to "scatter the burning coals abroad."This is precisely what the great commission is al about -- spreading the Word with a fiery heart. Affirmations: I REFUSE TO STAY IN A NORMAL MODE; I'M NOT GOING TO LET THE WORLDS CULTURAL WISDOM SQUEEZE ME INTO ITS MOLD. THE WORLD'S POLITICALLY CORRECT AGENDA CAN'T DICTATE TO ME ANYMORE. QUESTIONS TO ASK MYSELF: 1. What am I doing to stoke the fire of my love and passion for advancing the Great Commission? 2. What is my passion? ALBERT FINCH MINISTRY

Hi all. A new video about escaping the Great Tribulation. The video length is a little under 5 minutes and takes a post-tribulation position. As usual, I'm keen to hear what others think.

Just a couple questions that have been on my mind lately. Should we be looking for the same return or coming of the messiah that the Jews were looking for 2000 years ago? ( I think yes we should by the way ). The Jews were expecting a coming of the Messiah 2000 years ago. Why shouldn't we as Christians be looking for the same coming now that they were then? They were looking for the Messiah to come and establish His Kingdom. To which there would never be an end. When the end times and the rapture are discussed it is usually about us christians going to heaven and the sweet by and by. Very rarely do I hear of the coming return of Jesus ( the coming return of the Messiah) in regards to his establishing his literal kingdom on earth. Does someone's understanding of the Kingdom of God and it's establishment on earth in Jerusalem by Jesus effect peoples end times and rapture beliefs? It just seems to me, that we should be looking for the same thing now that they were then. But instead it's like there has been a replacement of purpose, from Israel and God focused to Church and God focused. Is there not a proper understanding that mergers both ? Why is it either one or the other? Anyone who takes the time to answer all these questions ( I know it's a lot) you have my thanks.

IS THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE FAKE (Revelation 11:15 KJV) Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” (1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. (1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJV) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.5 (Matthew 24:13 KJV)But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (Matthew 13:28-30 KJV{28} He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? {29} But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. {30} Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (John 17:15 KJV) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. (John 17:20 KJV) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; NOW WITH ALL OF THIS YOU TELL ME IF IT IS A LIE OR NOT

Peter on the Last Days - Part Two ( part 1 is here ) I do not know how many parts there will bet, but this is the second installment, and deals with a little something we can glean from Act 3. Many will think I go too far - maybe I do. However, this is what I think I see there, related to end times sequences. In Acts Chapter 3, Peter is again addressing a group of people and lets us know something of what has been revealed to him about the last days. Now, the context is not a lecture on eschatology, it is a presentation of the Gospel near the temple in Jerusalem. Peter and John were there and encountered a man, crippled, who was begging. Peter said he did not have any money, but what he did have, he would give to the man. Then he said "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Walk!" (Act 3:6) The man was healed and walked with Peter and John, into the temple courts. The man seemed to be a bit excited (and why not) by his ability to walk for the first time in his life. The people round about, recognized the man as the guy who used to sit around begging for money and they were amazed. Peter seized this opportunity, to launch into a presentation of the Gospel, (Acts 3:12-25), part of which I will reproduce for you here: “Fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or Godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through Him that has completely healed him, as you can all see. 17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that He may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive Him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything He tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to Him will be completely cut off from their people.’ The reason I have only given you part of that sermon here, is that I am focusing in this series, on what Peter tells us, about the end times. So, in keeping with that, I want to point out verse 21 to you: “Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. “ Now, to restate that into plainer language, we could paraphase that sentence in this way: He (Jesus) must remain in Heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, just as He (God) has promised long ago through the prophets (in the scriptures) Now certainly, Peter is not here, giving us a discourse on eschatology, but he has revealed a little detail, that could clear up a misconception that some might have about the future actions of Jesus, things Jesus will be doing in our future. Peter has let us know here, that Jesus must remain in Heaven until certain things have happened, things which have been revealed, prophesied to happen, which are in our Old Testament. I am not certain what things Peter had in mind (possibly Isa 2:1-4, Isa 35, and Zech 14:1&14:8-11) when he said "the time to restore everything", but I think we can reasonably conclude certain things about this concept. For example: · The fact that Jesus must remain in Heaven until . . . the until lets us know that there will be a time where Jesus is no longer going to be restricted to Heaven, and He may return. · Clearly, this had not yet happened at the time Peter gave this sermon, and would be yet future · We know that Jesus has not returned as of this study, so it is still a future event · We know (from Matt 24 and other passages, that there is coming a time of great tribulation, and since the tribulation is the world at it's worst, that the tribulation does not qualify as a 'restoration of all things' · Since Jesus will not return until the time of restoration, and since we also know that Jesus WILL return, immediately after the great tribulation (Matt 24:29-31), it is a reasonable assumption, is that Jesus will not return before or during the tribulation · Since Jesus can not return UNTIL it is time to restore all things, and He will return after the tribulation, therefore, His return after the tribulation has to be the time to restore all things, there is no alternative that harmonizes with what we know from these verses which we have just examined. Psalm 110 says: 1The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” 2The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying, “Rule in the midst of your enemies!” 3Your troops will be willing on your day of battle. Arrayed in holy splendor, your young men will come to you like dew from the morning’s womb. Now, in this context of Jesus not returning until some event, notice that Jesus (apparently) is told by God the Father (in Heaven) to remain (there in Heaven, at God's right hand). The Bible is nothing, if not consistent. It is always agreeing with itself. If you have an understanding of a text, which does not harmonize with other Bible texts, then you have a wrong understanding, assuming that the Bible is accurate. While the ideas that I am pulling from these texts, may not be a correct understanding, they are not incompatible with each other, or other points of scripture, so they may well be correct. If my understanding is correct on these texts we are examining, then it appears again, that if Peter had the notion that Jesus would return (and he did), then Peter seems to understand that His return, will be after the great tribulation. Not only does he imply that Jesus will return after the tribulation, he states that Jesus will not return before it, making a pre-trib rapture impossible.

This topic will be discussing Matthew chapters 24-25. But the following verses specifically. Please feel free to use the entire 2 chapters or any other book and chapter of the bible on the return of Jesus to express your point of view. Matthew 24: 30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 25 : 31-32 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Above are the verses I have questions about. I would like to know how everyone understands these verses in context to Matthew 24-25 as a whole. For both chapters are talking about the end times. It is one long disclosure by Jesus on the end times, and in this long disclosure he mentions his return twice in very interesting detail. 1. Do these verses say Jesus returns twice? 2. Why does the 1st verse above say he returns to gather his elect, while the 2nd verse talks about gathering all nations to him? 3. Why do the verses around the first verse above refer to Jesus only as the son of man, while the verses around the 2nd verses above refer to Jesus as King? 4. Doesn't the gathering of his elect and the gathering of all nations to Jesus first happen at 2 different times? 5. Are these verses talking about a single return of Jesus or 2 different returns of Jesus? 6. Isn't the comment about separating the sheep from the goats a reference to the final judgement in revelation, while the first return to gather his elect more in line with the rapture? 7. Are they both the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus or is only the 2nd set of verses above talking about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus and the first set of verses above talking about the rapture? I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on this. May God bless you all Firestormx

Greetings Fellow Saints, I would love for you all to comment on this possible scenario I've been playing with. I'm omitting many details, just trying to get the big picture here, so bear with me. This may be long, but I will try to get to the points I'm making. 1. As a result of a Mid East war (psalm 83 or Ezekiel 38/39 maybe), the future antichrist and others will confirm or make a peace treaty with Israel. There will be reasonable peace finally in that area. One of the terms of this agreement will allow for Israel to rebuild its Temple on the Mount. This will also allow for all religions to share and use the Temple Mount as they see fit. The AC will not be revealed at this point and will not running things, just present and perhaps obvious by seeking Philadelphia Christians. Daniels last 70th week commences. I believe the Great Harlot of Rev 17 will be very important during this time riding the NWO. 2. At the midpoint of this week, the AC will be possessed by the Evil One and will finally arise and seek to be glorified. The False prophet will be by his side performing many signs and wonders to support this evil dude. This will result in Antiochus Ephihanes Part 2. This abomination of desolation will commence the GREAT TRIBULATION. 3. This abomination basically commences the opening of the seals, trumpets, and bowls in succession. Thus, I'm thinking, is it possible for the entire 42 month period to contain all of these judgments, but I'm not dogmatic at all regarding the timing of the seals. They may be earlier than the abomination. I would love feedback especially on this point. I also believe the two witnesses will be present to give hope to the world,, but especially the Jews. 4. Of course, Saints will now be persecuted and the AC economic buying plan will go into effect. I believe God will divinely protect the Philadelphia christians, but not by rapture, but rather by putting a hedge around them somehow (don't ask me, I haven't thought through that enough). 5. The 6th seal will then result in the rapture, and I haven't a clue how long after the abomination this will occur, but I do know this is why Rev 7 says "they (raptured saints) came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION. " 6. Immediately after the rapture, the Day of the Lord occurs, and God unleashes his wrath, not mans wrath. Of course, God promised the true church they would be spared his wrath, so the true church is now gone, while the pretenders remain to get it right with God. The 144,000 Jews are sealed after the 6th seal so they too are protected. Bozrah, Jordan will be the place for Jews to go and hide and wait things out. 7. Basically, once the seals, trumpets, and bowls play out, Christ will then return to defeat Satan and the AC at Armageddon and to establish his Millenium Kingdom. The three evil Trinity will be imprisoned, and then we turn our attention to the sheep and goat judgment taking place. Those people who did not take the mark of the beast and were kind to God's children will be allowed access to the kingdom in their physical bodies. Those who took the mark or were unkind are not allowed in. Bye bye. 8. The true church will help Christ rule on the earth. Christ will rule for 1000 years, Satan will then be released from prison and rally many of the masses to his side again. Another war, same result, we win, he loses, and this time, it is over. The Great White Throne judgment is next, and all the nonbelievers will be judged and cast out. The rest is pure sweetness. Everyone will have a glorified body and we will all live with both Jesus and God the father. So, what do you think? I welcome any feedback, both pro and con. I love to ponder this and I promise I will do so even if you disagree with me. My beliefs are not etched in stone, so I'm always open to receive new teaching. Thanks in love, spock

Well, since I made a list once about some things the Bible does not say about the End Times, maybe I should list some thing that it does say. Now, I am expecting, that no one will argue that these things are not in the Bible, but I do not reasonably expect that there will not be people, who will want to comment on how these things do not mean what they appear to mean. I expect some comments from the Bible + crowd. The numbers are there to make it easier to reference things said, for any who find quoting difficult to do. So, in no particular order, and some possible redundancy: 1. There will be a time of trouble whcih Jesus called birth pangs √ 2. Followed by persecution, even to death, a time of tribulation. √ 3. There will be a specific sign to warn of it's nearness. √ 4. Then the tribulation will be great, but it will be limited it length to preserve life. √ 5. After the tribulation, Jesus will come visibly in the sky. √ 6. He then will send angels to gather His elect. √ 7. In Jesus time, only the Father knew the exact time of Jesus visible return √ 8. But it will be like the days of Noah, when calamity overtook the surprised unbelievers √ 9. Believers should also be ready for His return, though they do not know the exact time. √ 10. There will be a time when Jesus catches up (raptures) His church. √ 11. The Lord descends from Heaven, a shout, and angel, a trumpet, and those who have died in Christ rise first, then the living Christians join them in the air. √ 12. Believers are to look for a man of lawlessness to be revealed, and by that will know that the 2nd coming of Jesus, has become imminent. √ 13. Jesus will come like a thief on unbelievers, while watchful Christians will know that He is about to come. √ 14. Believers who die in the tribulation, for their testimony of Jesus, come to life in the first resurrection √ Taken from http://omegazine.com/nutshell.html

Please listen, for the Lord is SOON to return .....

Hi everyone! I just want to ask, who are the 144, 000 elect during rapture, and it says in the Bible, that they are blameless and no lie has ever been seen in them, does this mean they are perfect? And about the two witnesses, who are they? Just curious. Thanks.

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/march2013/reneem325-4.htm I was shown this and wondered if some of you might be interested in reading it. Maybe I got the correct forum this time!

The Post-trib position in a nutshell compared with the Bible A short bible study on a topic that some want to make way too complicated - Omegaman Post-Trib Belief What the Bible (NASB) Says The software here makes formatting difficult. There is an easier to read version if you prefer There will be a time of trouble Jesus called birth pangs 6 You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8“But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Followed by persecution, even to death, a time of tribulation 9“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. There will be a sign 15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Then the tribulation will be great, but it will be limited 21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. After the tribulation, Jesus will come visibly in the sky 29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. He then will send angels to gather His elect 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. In Jesus time, only the Father knew the exact time of Jesus visible return 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. But it will be like the days of Noah, when calamity overtook the surprised unbelievers 37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 “For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Believers should also be ready for His return, though they do not know the exact time. 42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 44 “For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will. The Bible, to prevent deception. tells us the order of the events: 3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you." Every verse listed so far, was from the 24th Chapter of the book of Matthew. You have just read them yourself, so you can see what Jesus said about these things. As you can see, He did not use figurative or symbolic language, he was very clear, and used lots of words which indicate time sequences, words like "then" and "at that time", "immediately after". There is no need to spin Jesus' words or make unwarranted assumptions, as many are tempted to do. Let's look at some more info from the apostles Paul and from John There will be a time when Jesus catches up (raptures) His church. From 1 Thess chapter 4 Notice again the sequence: The Lord descends from Heaven, a shout, and angel, a trumpet, and those who have died in Christ rise, Then the living Christian join them in the air. 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Like Jesus before him, Paul also said there was a sign to look for, a signh that would appear before our gathering to Him in the rapture. Believers are to look for this man, and by that will now that the 2nd coming of Jesus, is then imminent. 2 Thess 2 1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Jesus will come like a thief on unbelievers, what watchful Christians will know that He is about to come. 1 Thess 5 1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. Since we know that the dead in Christ rise first, followed by the rapture (vs 16 & 17 of 1 Thess 4) of the living believers, if we only knew if that resurrections was before or after the tribulation, we could understand if the rapture was before or after the tribulation. Believers who die in the tribulation, for their testimony of Jesus, come to life in the first resurrection, to be followed by the rapture (1 Thess 4:17) rapture. Rev 20 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.) This is the first resurrection. Does not the language of the passage above, indicate those are believers in Christ who died during the time of the beast and his persecution against the church? Rev 12 is also interesting, you might want to give it a read also: https://biblehub.com/nasb_/revelation/12.htm This has been a brief summary of the Post Tribulation Rapture viewpoint, also known as Historic Premillenialism, along with some scripture passages which can be said to support this understanding. There were assertions, and there were supporting verses and passages, without inserting things like an invisible, secret coming - is there even one verse that says that? If so, I have never seen it, and idea that has become very popular in modern times. I believe I have kept this faithful to scripture, I tried to make it simple and clear. Jesus and Paul warned about deceptions to come, I take those warning seriously. Paul had this to say as well: 2 Tim 4 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. I will end with this thought from the book of Acts: 19 “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. Some versions render that as "He must remain in heaven until the time" If course because it is the Bible and all true, all these verses harmonize perfectly well with each other, and I believe the Post-Trib rapture position, is consistent with them as well. I hope you found this helpful and informative. Thanks for taking the time to read it!

The Blessed Hope - What is it? First off, it is located in Titus 2:13: 11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and Godly in this present age, 13looking forward to that blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us, to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works. No real definition is provided in the above passage, and nothing tells us what it is not either. One thing we do know, is that is is something to look forward to. Some people think this is a reference to the rapture, that catching up of believers, referred to by Paul in 1 Thess 4: 13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words. Interesting. Paul here mentions in verse 13, that there are some who have no hope, I never noticed that as a contrast to a blessed hope before - just an observation. Back to my original thought: If this catching up (or rapture as it is sometimes called) is a pre-tribulation event, then it would indeed be a blessed hope (at least for those who will be around near the end), because if would be a meeting with our savior, and an escape from a horrible time that is about to take place. I am wondering though, what in Titus 2, indicates that this is what is being spoken of? Well, to be honest, I am not wondering that exactly, because the answer to my question is "NOTHING". Nothing there indicates that it is a pre-trib rapture. Some take it upon themselves to go beyond the word of God and just define the blessed hope as the pre-trib rapture. I have the hope, one day, that I will meet my savior, face to face, and enter into His rest. I have the hope, that I will be delivered from His wrath He intends to appliy to the ungodly, that I deserve because of my rebellions, my sins. My hope is based upon the promise that rather than endure torment, I will join Him in Heaven, because by His grace alone, I will have been brought there. So anyway, take a look at Titus 2:13 in it's context, and see if you think that the context indicates that the blessed hope is a pre-trib rapture, or is it possible something else? Personally I have a blessed hope, not unlike this idea, in that I am looking forward to the blessed hope of salvation (Titus 2:11) and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, mentioned in Titus 2:13 and described in Matt 24:29 and 30 where we are told that after the tribulation and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds with great glory. So, what are your thoughts. Do you think that Titus 2 tells us that the blessed hope is a pre-trib rapture? Why or why not?