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Found 6 results

  1. Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Question: are these verses telling us of ONE TIME these signs will be seen, as a sign for ONE EVENT? Or are these verses telling us of TWO DIFFERENT signs for TWO DIFFERENT events? There are more: Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
  2. I hope all the participants here know, Revelation is written in an order. Since John numbered so many things for sequencing, why would anyone suppose it is OUT of order? As I read it, Jesus begins this book right where John was at the time, around 95 AD. In chapter 21, we see John is beyond the thousand year reign of Christ, so far far into our future today. It just makes sense then that somewhere between chapters 1 and chapters 21, is where the church is TODAY. I hope then that all the writers here will show us where they perceive the church is today in the book of Revelation. I am not interested in preterist thought - only those that believe much of Revelation is still future need answer. Next, I would like to see where everyone places the start of the Day of the Lord, and WHY. Next, where do people see the start of the 70th week and why. Finally, where do people see the exact midpoint, and why. Since Revelation already HAS an order, that is a chronology, I will not change it. I think the Holy Spirit knew and knows the sequence of events that is coming. Therefore, I believe any theory that must rearrange Revelation to work will immediately be suspect and in the end will be proven wrong. Further, I am convinced that it is the 70th week that is INSIDE the seals scroll, and that all 7 seals must be opened before the 70th week can begin. I see the 70th week then beginning with the 7th seal that allows the book to be opened. therefore the trumpets will come in the first half of the week. With that said, John TELLS US where the Day of the Lord, or the Day of His wrath begins: right at the 6th seal. Next, I see the 70th week beginning right at the 7th seal, and I see the midpoint right at the 7th trumpet. I see the week end at the 7th vial. therefore the entire week is marked by 7's. I find it amusing that people imagine they can move events around (rearranging) revelation to fit a theory. I think it would be far wiser to create a theory from the book AS WRITTEN. I find such a theory fits all end times scriptures.
  3. Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Years ago, in the course of my eschatological studies, I came across someone, I don't remember whom, that suggested that the "earth dwellers" was a kind of technical term for those who receive the mark of the beast and worship him in the last days. The statement meant little to me at the time, nevertheless it was filed away in my memory for a future day. Years later that day came. It was at the end of a time in my life, a period of God's correction of my eschatological beliefs. Over the course of many months my fervent pretribulationism was challenged and suffered many devastating blows. These were not the assaults of men, but of the Word of God upon a system of belief that was fashionable within the circles of my fellowship, but entirely without scriptural foundation. However, I was stubborn and not prone to change, so, as long as there was even a single verse I could hold on to that appeared to indicate that the church wouldn't be around for the great tribulation, I remained steadfastly pre-trib in my belief and preaching. The one verse that I had remaining, out of what had been seemingly a multitude, was Rev 3:10. "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev 3:10) I thought, surely this verse was clear, the church will be kept from the hour of temptation, we will not go through the great tribulation. I was very confident in my understanding of "kept ... from" (tēreō ek), I had spent much time studying and considering what that means. I defended the teaching, that the faithful church in Philadelphia would be kept from or out of the hour of temptation and that it wasn't saying that we would be kept through it, as many post-tribbers teach. (It is true that God will keep the 144,000 and the woman of Rev 12 who is hid and fed in the wilderness, both of these he keeps through the period of His wrath, but the church is out of here first.) I still have confidence that "out of" is the right understanding, God will remove His own before His wrath is poured out. So, I had my one verse for the pre-trib rapture, Rev 3:10. However, I was still unsettled. The problem was that the weight of the rest of the Scriptures contradicted my understanding of this one verse. Then came that day, that's when I remembered that someone had said that "earth dwellers" was a technical term for the Beast worshipers. Rev 3:10 used that term (earth dwellers), "them that dwell upon the earth". So, I began to verify that idea and then apply it to this passage. What I found brought a harmony in my understanding of the eschatological texts. "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev 3:10) When considering Rev 3:10, it is very important to understand the focus of the trial in context. It is that which will allow you to rightly understand what the notable hour of temptation is. In this verse, the focus is said to be upon the earth dwellers, “them that dwell upon the earth.” “The earth dwellers” is a technical term throughout the eschatological portions of the New Testament. The term is the combination of two Greek words (gē and katoikeō or a variation thereof). It always refers to those dwelling on the earth that worship the Beast and receive his mark (even in Rev 12:12). This can be understood to be true by observing this combination of words in the following texts. Jesus says concerning the Day of the LORD: Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Jesus uses this combination of words in an eschatological context. He says that the earth dwellers are going to be surprised by the Lord's coming and His wrath on the day of the Lord. They will be caught suddenly, unawares (Luke 21:34; 1Thes 5:3). However, Paul clearly teaches that the Day of the LORD will not overtake the watching believer as a thief. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. So “them that dwell on the face of the whole earth” excludes the watching saints. This term is not all inclusive. It refers only to those who are caught unawares or suddenly by Christ's return. (The very elect will not be surprised, because we expect His coming and He has given us events to watch for which will indicate the season of His return and our gathering together unto Him.) Next, let's look at what John records concerning the two witnesses: Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. Notice here that the earth-dwellers rejoice at the death of God’s two witnesses, which no believer would do. These earth-dwellers are followers of the Beast and False Prophet and they rejoice when God's two witnesses are overcome and killed by the Beast. So, again we see that earth-dwellers excludes the saints. Let's look at another instance of John's use of this technical term. Here, it is used for those who are deceived by the false prophet: Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. Take notice that the earth-dwellers here are deceived by the False Prophet into worshiping the Beast and receiving his mark, but Jesus said that it was not possible for the “very elect” to be deceived (Matt. 24:24). Eleven verses in the book of Revelation contain this technical term for those who worship the Beast and receive his mark. Recognizing that the focus of the temptation in Rev 3:10 is upon the earth dwellers, we know that it refers to God's fierce wrath at the beginning of the day of the Lord and not Satan's wrath (Rev 12:12) upon the elect and Israel in the great tribulation. It is God’s tribulation upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipers, who will persecute the church and Israel in the great tribulation, that is referenced in Rev 3:10. The persecuted saints are said to be kept from the hour of temptation, that is, removed from the sphere of God’s, day of the Lord, wrath. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb
  4. Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Can someone please help me? Can you tell me if all these verses refer to the same event? Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: Isa 2:13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, Isa 2:14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, Isa 2:15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, Isa 2:16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. Isa 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. Isa 2:18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish. Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Isa 2:20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; Isa 2:21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Are each of these passages speaking of the same event? It appears that they are. Please provide proof if they are not all referring to the same event. Thanks
  5. I don't hate you because of what you believe either, but I strongly disagree with that premise you made about the Church and asleep saints. Per 1 Thess.4:13-17, Matt.24:31 and Mark 13:27, those Scriptures make a distinction about Christ gathering His Church both from Heaven (asleep saints), and from the earth ("which are alive and remain") within the same timing and joined to Him at His returning. So how can you infer that it's impossible for the Church to go through the great tribulation because of some idea that it would require the "asleep" saints to be raised to go through it? That kind of idea goes directly against those written Scriptures quoted above. How? The Asleep Saints That Have Died: 1Thes 4:13-14 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. (KJV) The Alive Saints Still On Earth At Christ's Coming: 1Thes 4:16-17 16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (KJV) Even that very 1 Thess.4 Scripture completely debunks the idea some try to use it as one of the biggest proofs that the Church is raptured prior to the tribulation. Paul made a clear distinction between the "asleep" saints that died and the saints "which are alive and remain" unto Christ's coming. Are alive and remain where? On earth! Do the Matt.24 & Mark 13 Scriptures agree with Apostle Paul on that? Yes! Most definitely! The Asleep Saints That Died: Matt 24:29-31 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (KJV) The Alive Saints Still On Earth At Christ's Coming: Mark 13:24-27 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (KJV)
  6. I was studying today the OT and in particular this term "The Day of the Lord." I didn't realize it comes up in Scripture 29 times... 24 times in the OT and 5 in the NT. What do you think of this term? What does it mean to you? God bless, GE
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