Jump to content

Search the Community

Showing results for tags 'eschatology'.



More search options

  • Search By Tags

    Type tags separated by commas.
  • Search By Author

Content Type


Forums

  • Worthy Lobby
    • Worthy Welcome
  • Christian Discussions
    • Study Group
    • General Discussion
    • Do you want to just ask a question?
    • Theology
    • Apologetics
    • Prophecy
    • Christian Culture
  • Upper Room
    • Prayer Requests
    • Praises
    • Absolutely Positive!
    • Testimonies
  • Community Center
    • Fellowship Hall
    • Legacy Lounge
    • Humor! Need a good laugh?
    • Golden Oldies
    • Sports, Hobbies, Entertainment, and other interests
  • Videos
    • General
    • Comedy
    • Biblical Topics
    • Christian Music
  • Current News
    • Worthy Briefs
    • Most Interesting News Developments
    • World News
    • Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
    • U.S. News
    • Christian News
  • Worthy Ministries
    • Worthy Devotions
    • What's the latest with the Worthy Ministries?
  • Worthy Fantasy Football League's Discussions
  • Who's on the Lord side?'s Topics
  • Cooking club's What's your favorite recipe?
  • Cooking club's Bread
  • Cooking club's About Multi-cookers - features, tips, recipes
  • Cooking club's Smokers & related recipes/techniques
  • Gardening.'s Gardening Club Forum
  • Photography How To (tips and tricks)'s Photography Club Topics
  • Maker's Club's So, what do you make, what have you made?
  • Maker's Club's Club News
  • Bible 365's THE DAILY READING
  • Bible 365's Misc. Things of interest
  • Bible 365's Bible Topics - Looking at the Bible Topically
  • Reading Club's Topics
  • Bible Trivia's Bible Trivia Quizzes
  • Bible Trivia's Bible Trivia Answers
  • Bible Trivia's Index to Bible Trivia and Answers
  • Bible Trivia's Announcements
  • Puzzle Club's Forums
  • The Prophecy Exchange's Forums
  • The Prophecy Exchange's Resources
  • Songs of Praise Poetry Club's Forums
  • Drone Club's Forums
  • Christ Centered Recovery Group's Forums
  • Christ Centered Recovery Group's 12 Steps and Biblical Comparison
  • Christ Centered Recovery Group's Testimonies
  • Christ Centered Recovery Group's Lessons
  • Worthy Book Club's Forums
  • The New Hobbies Club's Discussion board

Christian Blogs

There are no results to display.

There are no results to display.

Calendars

  • WCF Events
  • Worthy Fantasy Football League's Calendar of Events

Find results in...

Find results that contain...


Date Created

  • Start

    End


Last Updated

  • Start

    End


Filter by number of...

Joined

  • Start

    End


Group


AIM


MSN


Website URL


ICQ


Yahoo


Jabber


Skype


Location


Interests

Found 23 results

  1. (an excerpt from my book, Rise of the Little Horn) The Emergence A man with no military or political experience announces his run for the most powerful seat in the world. His promise? GREATNESS. He controls the flow of money, and is head over a military that is unmatched in the world. He is consumed with winning politically and fortifying his strongholds. Though initially thought of as a minor threat by his associates, he truly towers over them. He demolishes them by means of abusive and slanderous speech, tears down the character of those who oppose him and flatters and elevates those who admire him. He rises up as if by sheer will. He is an alpha male who plots and manipulates anything and everything to take down his opponents. He is seemingly unstoppable. To the utter amazement of the world, he succeeds at nearly everything he does, despite his lack of deep personal conviction on any issue except self-aggrandizement. His narcissistic pride is evident to all as he continually boasts, exaggerating his achievements and financial worth. He is characteristically disingenuous, so deftly twisting the truth that deceit becomes the norm rather than the exception. An aura emanates from him that seems to delude people’s thinking; making those―seemingly intelligent―unable to discern truth from falsehood. At some point, these deluded masses begin to view good things as evil and evil things as good. He is untamable, doing whatever he pleases. These characteristics cause other world leaders to fear him. He shows little regard for the support of women, yet boasts of his various adulterous relationships. Despite his inflated claims, he does possess considerable wealth, which he unabashedly flaunts; wealth accumulated through real estate holdings and building projects. Hailed as the consummate praised man of the city, he is a builder of great high towers, bedecked with precious stones and gold. He is obsessed with his name and plasters it on everything he touches. He is cunning and shrewd; playing his enemies like a game of cards. He is vicious in his desire to win. The concepts of grace and forgiveness find no place in him. Violence follows him wherever he goes; even to the killing of innocents who stand between him and his goals. His false show of religion gains the trust of people of faith―deluding them. He comes to power through the “simple folk” who have been discarded as insignificant. His supporters are unwavering in their commitment, for they worship the ground he walks on. His rise to power coincides with a political uprising and defection. Many will leave their former political affiliations. His ascension comes at a time of worldwide financial, social, religious, military and civil upheaval. But he will promise to restore law and order, and to soon put an end to crime and violence; a few of many extravagant promises he will never keep. He will establish an extreme vetting process to prevent illegals from gaining access. He will seek the wealth of Iraq as Russia shows signs of escalating military aggression towards the Middle East. Known for his ability to make deals, he promises to make a peace deal between Israel and her surrounding enemies. He plans a restructure of the balance of power in Europe in order to fight terror. The earth will be in global flux. Who do these paragraphs describe? This portrait was penned thousands of years ago. It is a biblical word picture of the most evil, ruthless killer of all time; a tyrant who will draw the world into the last great mega-battle known as Armageddon. The Bible refers to this man as the Son of Perdition, the Man of Sin, the Wicked One, the Worthless Shepherd, the Beast, the LIE, the Adversary, the Spoiler, the Willful King, the Lawless One, the Desolator, and more. This man’s wickedness grows until, eventually, Satan himself will possess him. He is known to most as the Antichrist. (Copyright 2016 - Jonathan Dane - All Rights Reserved)
  2. Hi all! I am beginning a project that I hope will help people study this topic, with greater ease. On thing that would be very helpful to me, is to know which translations we prefer to use in study. I will then work on this project, around some of the most favored versions. I probably will not be doing much with the more obscure versions, but for now, could you choose from among those listed? Thanks in advance for your help. I know some of you will want to add comments. I am not promising that I will read them, if I read them, I may or may not respond to them. I do suggest however, that you try to refrain from debating Bible versions, or expressing why you believe your favorite is better than the other person's favorite. There are already threads on that at Worthy. My purpose here, is only to discover which of the above, people who study eschatology prefer, so I may prioritize the versions I support in my upcoming project. Again, thanks for the help.
  3. I have been studying eschatology for more than 30 years now. Originally I believed in a pre-tribulation rapture because frankly it was the only view I had ever heard. One day I was listening to the radio and heard a man mentioning the fact that there were other views on the topic. This got my curiosity up and I decided to study the Bible myself and see if I could discover what the Bible itself actually taught about these things. I was really serious about it. The method I chose to employ was to read the Bible from Genesis through the Book of Revelation and write down every verse or passage that I believed spoke to the issue of the timing of the sequence of the Rapture of the Church with respect to the Great Tribulation. This took me eight months to accomplish. Once I had all of my notes, I copied them onto Post-it notes so that I could arrange them in a chronological sequence if something in the verse or passage had a clue about the order in which it fit with respect to the other verses and passages. This was done on a 4' x 8' sheet of particleboard laid out on a folding table. I tell you this in case you want to try this yourselves sometime to let you know what it takes and what you will be in for. My wife died recently and I myself am aging and have had some recent health issues. This has brought into focus the fact that my own time on earth may be limited. Actually this is true of every one of us, no one knows the time of their own death. You could have a stroke, or be in a car accident tomorrow. In Eschatology, the study of the last things, we usually think in terms of things prophesied in the Bible that are yet to come. Things like the Rapture of the Church, the Great Tribulation, the Second Coming of Jesus, Armageddon, the Millennium, these sorts of things. While many of us believe that Jesus could come at any moment, few of us really live as though we expect that to happen. We understand that it has been about 2000 years so far, and that casts some doubt our hearts and minds about whether he will really come today or tomorrow or even in a week or this year. Though I have always realized intellectually that my personal time on earth, my own life, could end in a moment, it is the events of this last year but it made me thoughtfully confront the reality of my limited time. What this means then is that no matter how delayed Jesus second coming might be, I will likely be face-to-face with Jesus within 10 or 20 years. Eschatology is then therefore not limited to the study of the last things predicted in the Bible, but we each have our own personal last days which are contained within our natural lifespans. Some people say that if it is true that Jesus will not be coming back until after the great tribulation that that removes the motivation to live as we should so that we will be found doing what we should be doing when he does return. I want to say to you that if that is what you think: "Shame on you!" The motivation to live correctly should not be a concern to not be caught failing to live as we should be living when Jesus comes at the end of the age. Jesus suffered and died on the cross for our sins. Gratefulness for our undeserved salvation should be more than enough motivation to live within the will of God without concern of the question of when Jesus will return. When we are not living correctly, we have already been 'caught'. The Holy Spirit is inside us if we are believers. God is omnipresent. Whatever we do, we drag Jesus with us. Nothing we do, nothing we say, nothing we think, goes unnoticed by God. So I think then, that for those of us who think that a pre-tribulation rapture of the church is a motivation to live rightly, with that thinking we are inclining ourselves to living wrongly. Rather than to live holy lives out of the gratitude we have for what Jesus has done for us - rather than live as dedicated servants who owe him everything - rather than realize that we are not our own but have been purchased - some of us shamefully take his grace as a license to sin because we know we have been forgiven. We live worldly lives because we think in our hearts that our master is delaying his return, even while we say with our lips He might return at any moment. Those of us who think and act in this manner are self deceived and we are hypocrites. In June of 2014, a couple months ago as I write this, I had the great privilege of delivering a sort of eulogy at my wife's memorial service. Gathered there were friends and family some of whom are believers, some who were not, and some who think they are believers and don't even understand what the difference is. It had been on my wife's heart for years that many of her family were likely destined to suffer in eternity. I know that like me, she was dissatisfied with the fact that it is easy to avoid speaking of spiritual things with loved ones because it feels awkward. Personally I feel shame that I have too often avoided that awkwardness and instead of demonstrating love by informing people of their peril, I have been willing to risk their eternal destiny for the sake of my temporary comfort . This is a great sin and I confess that as such and am attempting to repent of it. The eulogy I gave was the first significant step in telling people to re-examine their hearts and their lives and their need of salvation from their sins . This had been on my mind for years but having so many people as a captive audience at a time when the temporary nature of life was so obvious, was an opportunity that could not be passed up. What I was saying then was not just a recap of my wife's life, it was an expression of things that she had left unsaid. Confronting the fact that no matter how long it is before Jesus returns, it is true that we all have limited time left. So I realized that there are two kinds of the end times. There is the near-term end time which is represented by our limited lifespans, and there is the end times for mankind itself which began while Jesus still walked the earth and which we are in today as well. Both types of end times carry the same implications. Time is short, and there is a dying world out there that needs to understand that. Jesus himself near the end of his life told us to go out into the world and to preach the gospel to everyone. This was not a suggestion. Not just a nice idea. It's not optional. It is a command to every believer. Failing to do this is disobedience. It is sin. It is unloving. Penn Gillette, a self-professed atheist, said to the effect: "How much do you have to hate someone to believe that eternal life is possible and then not tell them how to obtain it?" I think those are pretty profound words on the topic for an atheist. It is too bad so many Christians don't get it. I have been one of them. So, in these last days of my own life I have determined to try to improve in a lot of things, but most specifically two things. The first is to be more active, perhaps even aggressive or at least assertive in evangelism. People need to understand that they are sinners. People need to know that their sin separates them from God. People need to understand that unless Jesus saves them from their sins, that separation from God is a permanent condition. They need to understand that that separation from God is a separation from everything good. Imagine if you will, what it would be like to spend eternity apart from good. Where there is no good, only evil remains. I believe that this concept of hell is accurate. I don't even like to think about it. When I try to imagine it, what I imagine is an eternity of suffering and pain, a despondent existence, a type of suffering worse than anything we have yet experienced in our lives while all the time knowing that this condition will be never ending and could have been avoided. What if life was so bad, that you never wanted to awaken, and you could never fall asleep again? If I really consider this all I can do is loathe my own evil and selfish heart, and at the same time feel an indebtedness and gratitude for the Savior who spares me from the eternity that I deserve and am apparently willing to let others earn for themselves. So, evangelism it is. I have to tell people. If I don't, I am a morally hideous monster. We do not need to have any special calling on our life to be ministers of the gospel. Where are all supposed to be evangelists. We do not have to wait for a leading of the Spirit to talk to a person about these things. We have already been told to just do it. Thing is when we realize what is at stake, we should not even have to be told. So then, the most important task that I have in my last days, the thing that I really want to be found doing when Jesus returns or when I go to be with Him if His return is delayed, it is to be telling others about God's love for them in the person of Jesus Christ who suffered and died for their sins to spare them from an eternity separated from God's love and goodness and filled with despair. When Jesus told us to go out into the world and preach the gospel to every creature he did not say to limit ourselves to evangelism. The purpose of evangelism is to make disciples, to make other followers of Jesus, and to teach them everything he taught us. One of the areas that Jesus taught about, that His apostles taught about, and that both Testaments of the Bible speak about frequently, are the end times and especially about warnings not to be deceived in them. So, because I have spent so much of the last three decades studying this area of Scripture, and because there are so many warnings not to be deceived, I feel a special responsibility to obey Jesus and tell other disciples about this topic because some are underinformed while others are deceived. I may at times sound arrogant due to the confidence I have in my understanding of eschatology, the study of the last things. I admit it, I am opinionated, passionate, and confident. When you put those three things together in one person, you have qualities which others may consider to be arrogance, maybe it is. Nevertheless I cannot in good conscience fail to attempt to pass on what I believe I have learned. I have been preparing questions for a trivia game on the topic of eschatology. While doing this I have been studying and reading the writings of others whose views are different than my own. There is one theologian in particular widely regarded as the foremost scholar on his particular viewpoint of eschatology. I have always had great respect for this man even though I disagree with him. He does deserve respect for his love of the Savior and his hard work and dedication to study. This is true of a lot of ordinary Christians as well. However after just having reviewed one of his books, I am finding so many unfounded presumptions, and faulty exercises and logic, that although I may respect his hard work, I have to reject his conclusions. Maybe I really am arrogant. However, even though I know this is redundant, I have to follow my convictions and make disciples, teaching them everything that Jesus taught his first disciples to teach other disciples in an ongoing chain until his return. Perhaps with this you can understand my focus. I hope that you can be patient with me while I am living out my faith and while the process of my own sanctification continues. I urge you, to also consider the shortness of time and make efforts to reach out to those you come in contact with and make a few disciples yourselves. Thanks for listening.
  4. Someone who read this list elsewhere, suggested that I post this in my blog, so here it is: Things some people say (which the Bible DOES NOT) about the End Times Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask themselves, why they believe certain things, that the Bible never says. So basically, in between the lines I am asking: If we believe certain things that are not stated in the scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture? Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers? So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? Following is a short list: 1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation. 2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation. (See Matt 24:21 & Rev 7:14) 3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is missing from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation. 4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God. 5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church. 6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming. 7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment. 8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church. 9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death. 10. The Bible does not say the Rapture is the Blessed Hope. (Titus 2:13) 11. The Bible does not say that Jesus will return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return. 12. It is often said: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. Those definitions may be workable, however the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events. 13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.
  5. Things the Bible DOES NOT SAY about the End Times Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even attack a theory, or attempt to refute one. What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask themselves, why they believe certain things, that the Bible never says. So basically, in between the lines I am asking: If we believe certain things that are not stated in the scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture? Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers? So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach? Following is a short list: 1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church, which occurs before the Great Tribulation. 2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation. 3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation. 4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath of God. 5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or invisibly to take His Church. 6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming. 7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment. 8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in the night for His church. 9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even death. Now, am I wrong about anything on that list. If so, can you provide scripture citations that would make anything in the list a misstatement? Thanks for your help! P.S. Please try to stick to the actual topic, and provide us with the information which would show me to be in error, when I claim the bible does not express the ideas in the list. Also not, that in the thread that follows, other ideas that could be added to the list are these: 10. The Bible does not explicitly say the the Rapture is the Blessed Hope. 11. Jesus is not said to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return. 12. It is often said: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. I think those definitions are workable, but the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events. 13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation. Helpful link to common verses applied to this topic
  6. As a quick disclaimer: I have seen your replies and clearly some of you have a heart for God. Others, spend far too much time listening to the doctrines of demons. Know this, unless they block me I will not quit. I write for a world that is filled with people with a heart like mine; one that has learned to err on the side of mercy. Have a great day basking in the love of Jesus Christ our soon coming King. Now, on with the post. Having addressed who or what Gog could be in my previous post, we now look at the directive given to Ezekiel to prophecy against Gog (from a great distance, and through time,) about what God's plan is, for the last days. Ezekiel 38:3 NASB and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. Eugene Peterson's “The Message” gives us this, “Be warned, Gog. I am against you. Ezekiel 38:4 CJB I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with all your army, horses and horsemen, all completely equipped, a great horde with breastplates and shields, all wielding swords. Why would verse four be immensely significant in the Jewish mind? If you think back to the story of Jonah you remember that Jonah was asked to prophesy against Nineveh and tell them their days were numbered. While that might seem appropriate, especially if you had an intense hatred for the Ninevehites and wanted them dead because they were sadistically cruel and bloody people. But Jonah also knew something about God that most of us miss, and that was that God's nature was one of mercy. The other thing that Jonah understood was that the Ninevehites were a part of the Assyrian nation, just as Gog is, and they had the nasty habit of dragging their victims back to their lands by putting hooks in their mouths, among other places. “I will turn you around.” Another piece of insight for you. Having recently gone to the beach to be with family, I took an ice chest of cold drinks. I dragged that chest from the car, across the beach sand, and now, later in the day, I was dragging it back again. By the time I got to the stairs that lead up to the car, I was exhausted. I could feel the full weight of the ice chest as I went up the first step. Suddenly it got lighter. I actually thought I was going to turn around and see an angel. What I saw was the long-haired young man whom I had just passed carrying a skateboard. My wife, who was about 22 meters behind me, saw the skateboarder and internally had said, Lord, that would be great if that young man helped my husband. With that, the young man stopped, turned, and began to help me without saying a word. You see, God has ways of his will without a word being exchanged; and, the young man, he probably thought it was his great idea. “and bring you out with all your army, horses and horsemen, all completely equipped, a great horde with breastplates and shields, all wielding swords.” In one of my posts on Ezekiel 38, I went into great detail about the people of that region, the Scythians. One of their claims to fame is that they were skillful horsemen and deadly with weapons as they rode. Would Ezekiel have known that? It is highly possible as the line of descendants that produced these people existed long before Ezekiel did and he would have learned this through oral history. At this point, I only wish to say, that someone attempted to challenge my previous assertions about Gog, saying, Gog was Satan. Based upon verse four alone is that probable? Not likely seeing as 1Chronicles 5:4 shows us the lineage of a man named Gog, a descendant of Reuben – the disinherited son of Jacob, but then, Ezekiel's prophecy and the actual occurrence of these events spans well over two thousand years and no one lives that long. The only other thing that has credence is a demonic spirit/ fallen angel that carries that name. In this battle coming against Israel, who are the players? Ezekiel 38:5-6 NASB Persia, Ethiopia and Put with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 6) Gomer with all its troops; Beth-togarmah from the remote parts of the north with all its troops-many peoples with you. Persia – Modern day Iran Ethiopia – At one time Ethiopia was known as Cush. Put - Put is the Libyans. While Qaddafi may have been a wild man, since his removal the nation has turned into a violent Muslim nation. Gomer - Sits squarely in modern day Turkey. Beth-togarmah - This was territory from which the Medes emanated. It is the region in which the Armenians resided. At one point in time, the Assyrian nations bordered Beth-togarmah, and it is the Caucasus region between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. While Russia has dominated these people at times they seem to be independent of Russia while maintaining civil war amongst themselves. There is a strong clue embedded within the verse that says, “in the far reaches of the north, with all its troops-many peoples are with you." Again, this is the Scythian region and one of their claims to fame was Genghis Khan. Ezekiel 38:7 CJB Prepare yourself, get ready, you and all your crowd gathered around you; and take charge of them. Consider something here. Ezekiel is writing this while he is in Babylonian captivity; which for him, began around 570 B.C. Now, over 2570 years later, God is finally bringing this collection of assailants together for a horrendous battle. A battle, that for Israel, will look impossible. Many will add another war in here, the Psalm 83 war. Some even insert it before the events that Ezekiel lays out before us. Psalms 83:3-8 ISV They plot against your people and conspire against your cherished ones. 4) They say, "Let us go and erase them as a nation so the name of Israel will not be remembered anymore." 5) Indeed, they shrewdly planned together, forming an alliance against you— 6) the tents of Edom, the Ishmaelites, Moab, the Hagrites, 7) Gebal, Ammon, Amalek, Philistia, and the inhabitants of Tyre. 😎 Even Assyria joined them to strengthen the descendants of Lot. Interlude. Psalm 83 has similarities to what we see in Ezekiel 38 and 39, but what I don't see is Cush, and Put – Egypt and Libya. I am not sure those nations can be excluded as the descendants traveled extensively. Ezekiel 38:8 CJB After many days have passed, you will be mustered for service; in later years you will invade the land which has been brought back from the sword, gathered out of many peoples, the mountains of Isra'el. They had been lying in ruins for a long time, but now Isra'el has been extracted from the peoples and all of them are living there securely. “After many days have passed,” Far too many read this and think it merely means weeks later. This phrase, like “the prince that shall come,” that is defined for us in Daniel 9:26, has several encroachments into history. The problem is, these intrusions are spread across thousands of years. Many is the Hebrew word rab meaning much, many, numerous, and abundance, among others. Verse eight is clearly a description of Israel. Ezekiel 38:9 CJB You will come up like a storm, you will be like a cloud covering the land—you and all your troops, and many other peoples with you.' “You will come up like a storm,” Sudden and overwhelming. Are all storms sudden? No, in many cases people will say, this is storm weather and it always starts like this. So, the implication is that we have a strong probability of knowing when this will come. Just today (6/29/2018), through the MEMRI website, I learned of a Middle Eastern newspaper that leans heavily toward Erdoğan, publishing an article calling for the Muslim of the world to gather in Jihad against Israel (this article was published in Dec of 2017 – not that long ago. An aspect of the article was a map which showed Israel surrounded on every side with army tanks. Surrounded on every side sounds very much like Ezekiel's words. “you will be like a cloud covering the land.” - Clouds are formed by thousands of drops of water. We are told that the number seems innumerable. “you and all your troops, and many other peoples with you.” - These are people of a like mind – Muslims may not be unified in “religion” but they all seem to understand the idea of Jihad. Ezekiel 38:10-12 CJB "Adonai Elohim says: 'When that day comes, thoughts will well up in your mind, and you will devise a sinister scheme. 11) You will say, "I am going to invade this land of unwalled villages; I will take by surprise these people who are at peace, living securely, all in places without walls, bars or gates. 12) I will seize the spoil and take the plunder." You will attack the former ruins that are now inhabited and come against the people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and other wealth and are living in the central parts of the land. “ When that day comes,” - Question, does God do anything at random? The answer is NO, as everything is part of a precise and well thought out plan; a plan which includes giving man a free will and the opportunity to choose life or death. Regardless of the optional qualities, the plan is still in place and intact. So, is it possible that God would leave the option for Gog to design and plan out “his” own destiny? Not a chance and verse ten is no different, as “that day” is entirely in God's hands, and, a part of God's plan. Another consideration is the terminology “that day.” The phrase is attributed to several events; one of which is the return of Jesus as the warring and conquering Messiah, who also fights a bloody battle in the Jezreel Valley; there is the great white throne judgment and the entirety of the seven-years of God's wrath upon the earth. Are any of those events what we are looking at here? I do not believe so as there are always other events associated, which we do not see here. “thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil plan,” - The Hebrew word for thoughts is dāḇār and literally means words. I could read this when that day comes, words will pop into your head, you are going to think this is your sinister scheme, but in reality, you will be doing what I have planned all along. Mind is the Hebrew word lēḇāḇ and also means heart. In God's understanding, the heart and the mind are one in the same. Devise is from the Hebrew word châshab and means to weave, fabricate, or plot. “You will say, "I am going to invade this land of unwalled villages; I will take by surprise these people who are at peace, living securely, all in places without walls, bars or gates. 12) I will seize the spoil and take the plunder.” The context of Deuteronomy 3:5 is applied to Israel's conquer of Og, the King of Bashan. Having destroyed Og's fortified cities they were never rebuilt by Israel. It also demonstrates that cities were typically fortresses; this is not what you see in Israel today. Deuteronomy 3:3-6 NASB "All these were cities fortified with high walls, gates, and bars, besides a great many unwalled towns. Zechariah 2:4 NASB and said to him, "Run, speak to that young man, saying, 'Jerusalem will be inhabited without walls because of the multitude of men and cattle within it. I like the way the ISV version translates Ezekiel 38:12, “the people … who live at the center of the world's attention.” Currently, all the world seems to be looking at Israel, once again. Whether Israel is at the center of the world or not is debatable, but God is making that nation the center of attention. And, although we have not covered the verse yet, it sums up the reason behind all this tumult. Ezekiel 38:16 ERV...I will bring you to fight against my land. Then, Gog, the nations will learn how powerful I am! They will learn to respect me and know that I am holy.
  7. Understanding the Activity of Michael the Archangel in the Middle of the Seventieth Week In this brief post, I would like to make a strong case for Michael the archangel being the restrainer that Paul says is withholding the revelation of the man of sin until it is God's determined time. Michael's suitability to be the restrainer The Holy Scriptures present Michael as the mightiest of the Heavenly Host. He is seen opposing Satan on a handful of occasions in the Scriptures. Jude tells us that Michael contended with the Devil over the body of Moses, whom he rebuked in the name of the Lord. As recorded in Daniel 10, it is Michael that dealt with the prince of Persia when he had detained Gabriel on his way with a message for Daniel. In the future Michael and his angels will fight a war in heaven with Satan and his angels, after which he will cast Satan to the earth. It is he who appears to have been tasked with the responsibility to hold back the revelation of the man of sin until it is the right time. Michael's unique relationship to the middle of the seventieth week In the future eschatological period known as Daniel's seventieth week, the archangel Michael will play a significant role. We find him in three passages that present events that take place in the middle of the week. 1) Michael stands up and an unparalleled time of trouble begins (Dan 12:1) Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. The context of the end of Daniel chapter 11 is the activities of the Beast in the end of the age. In chapter 11 we learn characteristics about him and see some of his military activities. The chapter ends with him placing the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain. This location appears to be Mt Zion in Jerusalem. The significance of this is that it is at that time (Dan 12:1) that Michael makes a change in his activity which results in an unparalleled time of trouble (Dan 12:1). This time of trouble is consistent with the great tribulation Jesus spoke of. We also see that there is a unique period length that is mentioned in relation to what is taking place in the beginning of chapter 12. The length that is given is "a time, times, and an half" or 3 1/2 years. Seven times in the Scriptures we find this same length spoken of in various forms: 1260 days, 42 months, and 3 1/2 years. It appears each time that they are associated with the second half of the seventieth week. The obvious conclusion is that the change in activity by Michael takes place in the middle of the week. 2) War in heaven, Satan cast to the earth (Rev 12:7-14) Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Michael and his angels will fight a war in heaven with the dragon (Satan) and his angels, after which Satan is cast to the earth having great wrath. Once upon the earth Satan goes after a remnant of Israel (represented by the woman) but she is hid and fed by God in the wilderness for 1260 days (Rev 12:6). The 1260 days indicate that the war in heaven took place in the middle of the week. Again, we see that Michael is very prominent in the middle of the week. 3) The abomination of desolation starts the great tribulation (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27) Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. The temple is defiled in the middle of the week which initiates the great tribulation. This is consistent with the Dan 12 passage but Michael is not mentioned by name or referred to. 4) The revelation of the man of sin (2Thess 2:3-10) 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. In Paul's instruction to the Thessalonians, he tells them that before the day of Christ can come there must be a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed. He also mentions that there is one who is withholding the revelation of the man of sin and that they, the Thessalonians, knew who it was. This revelation would involve the man of sin sitting in the temple and shewing himself to be God. Paul also says that this Antichrist shall receive power from Satan. We already know from the previous passages we looked at that the abomination of desolation takes place in the middle of the week and it begins the great tribulation. Here we see further details concerning the defiling of the temple and learn of one hindering the work of the mystery of iniquity. It is said that this hindering will continue "until he be taken out of the way." It is interesting to note that the last Greek word in verse seven is "mesos" which means middle even though it is translated "the way". It is as if Paul is saying that the restrainer will continue to hinder until the middle. I wonder what middle he was referring to. Could it be the middle of the week? Could this restrainer be Michael who is associated with the middle of the week? I believe Michael is the restrainer of 2Thes 2. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.
  8. I hear from time to time that the end times are upon us! I do believe that, for the most part, the times are becoming more evil. But I would like more scripture upon which to base this notion. Any suggestions? A timeline or website to view would be better, if you have something to share.
  9. Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Can someone please help me? Can you tell me if all these verses refer to the same event? Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: Isa 2:13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, Isa 2:14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, Isa 2:15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, Isa 2:16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. Isa 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. Isa 2:18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish. Isa 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Isa 2:20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; Isa 2:21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Are each of these passages speaking of the same event? It appears that they are. Please provide proof if they are not all referring to the same event. Thanks
  10. The End Times - According to Peter - Part One ( part 2 is here ) While I generally do not think of the post-trib rapture position as an interpretation of scripture (I think of it as a collection of events described in scripture and merely stated as an online), there are those who would and do say that it is one of many interpretations. Certainly it is one of many understandings, I just happen to believe it is likely to be a nearly correct, or mostly correct understanding among many misunderstandings. What follows, however, is an interpretation. Here, I am examining words of Peter, and drawing from them, what I believe to be reasonable assumptions, but that is all they are. Matthew 24-25 is the most thoroughly developed passage in scripture which gives a chronological accounting of end times events. There, the greatest authority we could hope to have speaks of these events in response to the question: "WHEN will these things be, and WHAT will be the sign of YOUR COMING and of the END of the AGE." My friends who are fond of advancing the pre-tribulation rapture theory, tell me that God's dealings with mankind can be broken down into different dispensations, and that this sermon by Jesus (often referred to as the Olivet Discourse) was directed to a different dispensation (not that of the Church age of Grace), and was intended for the Jews. Some tell me that the Church Age began at Acts chapter 2, when the Holy Spirit came upon the church at Pentecost, a few tell me the church age began with the church going out into the world, preaching the gospel, which is roughly the same thing. This dispensational view of things seems to have been developed by John Nelson Darby in the early 1800s, and spread largely due to the Schofield Reference Bible in the early 1900s. From there is spread into U.S. seminaries and then into the pulpits until it had become a commonly accepted idea in the churches of the west. I mention this dispensational theory, because if has an influence on how people read and understand the Bible. It is a filter, a set of colored glasses, through which many interpret the Bible, perhaps especially the book of Revelation. To be fair, most of us, whether we know it or not, or can admit it or not, probably view many of these things through some sort of preconception. We bring certain beliefs or prejudices to the text with us. Many read the Bible through Darby's dispensational lenses because that is how they were taught in their churches and books they have read etc. My own prejudice is that I read the Bible through the lens of Matthew 24 primarily, so this influences how I understand the bible also. Peter, never heard of Darby nor dispensationalism, but he was there for the lecture in Matthew 24. Since this is an examination on things Peter had to say on the end times, it seemed appropriate to bring up dispensationalism, since Peter had some things to say that might affect some of dispensationalism's notions. The context of Acts, chapter 1, is that Jesus had already been crucified, and paid for the sins of believers, and personally, I would have to say that makes a better marker for the beginning of the church. However, Acts 1 notes the following: 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” I would agree with our dispensational brethren, that the church began at least by the time the Spirit came to fill believers, if not before. In verses 6-8 we see: 6 Then they gathered around Him and asked Him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the Earth.” So, there Jesus told them that knowing the times and dates, was not really their business. However, Matthew 24-25, was about knowing the equence of events and the signs of His future coming. He warned them not to be deceived, and gave them signs that believers could use to avoid deception. So Jesus had already given them instruction about the order of events to come, even if He did not given the them the actual time in which they would come. Now, in Acts 1:9-11, we see something else stated: 9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” Take note that what is said there, is that Jesus would return the same way as He left. Now, if He left by ascending up into the sky and disappeared into a cloud, is it not reasonable to assume, that when he returns that He will be seen descending from the sky, out of the clouds? So, was Matthew 24 etc, intended for the Jews only, and not intended to be understood as concerning the church? Let's look further into some of the things which Peter said on the topic. In as much as Peter's Sermon in Acts, Chapters 1 & 2 was indisputably happening in the age of the church, regardless of whether one buys into the notion of dispensations or not, we can take what Peter says, as relevant to the church. In fact, in Acts 2:46&47, Luke says: 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. Notice "those who were being saved", is that not a description of the church? Since Peter's sermon is therefore, applicable to the church, it behooves us to note some of the things Peter tells us. Now, in Acts chapter 2, just after the crowd is drawn to the curiosity of the disciples speaking in tongues, notice what Peter says about the event: 14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ So, there we just saw that Peter rightly noted that the Old Testament commented on the last days. The old testament points out that in the last days, God would pour out his Spirit on people. Not only that, but Peter says that this event at Pentecost, is a fulfillment of what Joel said. This means, therefore, that Joel was speaking of the so called (among dispensationalists) Church Age. Joel himself, described this as the last days. Notice what is included in what Peter pointed out from the prophet Joel's words in verse 20 of Acts 2: "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord." If the sun is darkened and the moon turned to blood before the day of the Lord, then we can be assured that the day of the Lord, is an event that follows the signs of these celestial events. It is interesting to note therefore, what Jesus had said back in Matthew 24: 29 “Immediately after the distress (or as many translations say "tribulation) of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. We have already seen that Peter sees himself as in the last days spoken of by the prophet Joel and that this period of time would conclude with the day of the Lord. We also noted that the signs that would proceed the day of the Lord, match up with what Jesus said would happen after the tribulation, namely cosmic disturbances seen in the darkening of the Sun and the Moon (Matthew 24:29). Peter quoted Joel as saying: "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." It seems apparent then, that it was Peter's expectation, that the church should continue in it's task of evangelism, through the end of the tribulation, when the cosmic signs appear, and the day of the Lord begins. Peter, having been present at the teaching which Jesus gave on the Mount of Olives in Matt. 24, would have heard what we see recorded in Matt 24:9-14: 9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. This points out the gospel was to be preached right up to the end: "and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." So, what we have here in sequence is: Jesus death on the cross His ascension into Heaven the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost the spread of the Gospel the tribulation (people being persecuted, killed and hated because of Jesus) the darkening of the Sun and the Moon evangelism continuing right up to this time Christ returning visibly in the clouds (just as we noted in Acts 1:9-11 and in Mat 24:30) His gathering of the elect to be with Him, (in Matt 24:31) the day of the Lord is ushered in It appears then, that Peter understood both Joel's prophecy, and the instructions given in Matt 24, in a very literal, chronological, and interwoven way. While nothing said in Matthew 24, nor in Peter's sermon says that the Lord would NOT return before the tribulation to rapture the church, we should note that nothing said Jesus would return before the tribulation. We do see, however, that a return of Jesus to gather the elect after the tribulation and before the day of the Lord, is spelled out in the clearest of terms, so we KNOW that is going to happen. We should decide which we think is better, to speculate about things that are never said in the Bible, or accept the things which are specifically stated. I prefer the latter, and cannot in good conscience, go with the the speculation approach. This is the end of Peter on the End Times, Part One More Parts may follow, as Peter does have more to say.
  11. The Post-trib position in a nutshell compared with the Bible A short Bible study on a topic that some want to make way too complicated - Omegaman Post-Trib Belief What the Bible (NASB) Says The software here makes formatting difficult. There is an easier to read version if you prefer July 28th, 2014 - Omegaman 3.0 There will be a time of trouble Jesus called birth pangs You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.7“For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8“But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Followed by persecution, even to death, a time of tribulation 9“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. There will be a sign 15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Then the tribulation will be great, but it will be limited 21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. After the tribulation, Jesus will come visibly in the sky 29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. He then will send angels to gather His elect 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. In Jesus time, only the Father knew the exact time of Jesus visible return 36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. But it will be like the days of Noah, when calamity overtook the surprised unbelievers 37“For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38“For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Believers should also be ready for His return, though they do not know the exact time. 42“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 44“For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will. The Bible, to prevent deception. tells us the order of the events: 3As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you." Every verse listed so far, was from the 24th Chapter of the book of Matthew. You have just read them yourself, exactly as they are in the bible, and in the same order, so you can see for yourself, what Jesus said about these things.As you can see, He did not use figurative or symbolic language, he was very clear, and used lots of words which indicat time sequences, words like "then" and "at that time". There is no need to spin Jesus' words or make unwarranted assumptions, as many are tempted to do. Let's look at some more info from the apostles Paul and from John There will be a time when Jesus catches up (raptures) His church. From 1 Thess chapter 4 Notice again the sequence: The Lord descends from Heaven, a shout, and angel, a trumpet, and those who have died in Christ rise, Then the living Christian join them in the air. 13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Like Jesus before him, Paul also said there was a sign to look for, a sigh that would appear before our gathering to Him in the rapture. Beleivers are to look for this man, and by that will now that the 2nd coming of Jesus, is then imminent. 2 Thess 2 1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Jesus will come like a thief on unbelievers, but watchful Christians will know that He is about to come. 1 Thess 5 1Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. Since we know that the dead in Christ rise first, followed by the rapture (vs 16 & 17 of 1 Thess 4) of the living believers, if we only knew if that resurrection was before or after the tribulation, we could understand if the rapture was before or after the tribulation. Believers who die in the tribulation, for their testimony of Jesus, come to life in the first resurrection, to be followed by the rapture (1 Thess 4:17) rapture. 4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.) This is the first resurrection. This has been a summary of the Post Tribulation Rapture viewpoint, also known as Historic Premillenialism, along with some scripture passages which can be said to support this understanding. There were assertions, and there were supporting verses and passages, without inserting things like an invisible, secret coming (is there even one verse that says that? If so, I have never seen it), and idea that has become popular in modern times. I tried to keep this faithful to scripture, I tried to make it simple and clear. Jesus and Paul warned about deceptions to come, I take those warning seriously. Paul had this to say as well: 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 2 Tim 4 I will end with this thought from the book of Acts: 19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. Some versions render that as "He must remain in heaven until the time" Personally, I find all these verses harmonize perfectly well with each other, and I beleive the Post-Trib rapture position, is consistant with them as well. I hope you found this helpful and informative (Reply to a question - question asker asked for question to be deleted - but ok to leave answer if name not mentioned) Omegaman Jul 31 2014 10:23 PM Your reply touches on something that is always an issue, the idea of interpretation. I have no idea if I am right or I am wrong, I believe I am right of course, otherwise I would change my view, lol. However, where I think my understanding and belief is different from many, is that I try not to interpret at all, I just read, and try to understand. If you read my post, and I assume you did, you will have noticed that I did two things - I stated aspects of the doctrine which I accept, and then I stated the scripture that appears to support those points. You will have noticed that what I did not do was things like: "You see where it says 'elect', that is the Jews!" or: "See where it says the restrainer?" - that is the Holy Spirit: Those sorts of things, are interpretations, I just pointed out scripture and let it speak for itself. The things that are usually used to demonstrate a pre-tribulation rapture, are interpretations at best, usually they are arguments from silence, or assumed inferences not warranted by the text. For example, all of the ways people try to see a sudden, secret, any moment visit by Jesus, well, it is just odd, since the text never says any such thing. While I know people do not intend harm, it strikes me as dishonest to treat scripture so carelessly. Of course, I just stepped on millions of toes with that statement, but it frustrates me that people cannot see the difference between their assumptions and what the Bible actually says, and does not say. In my post I didn't even mention all the evidences that demonstrate the errors of pre-trib assumptions, I just tried to give positive evidence for a post trib position, and I did not have to assume or twist anything to do that - just posted scripture. I could still be in error for my understanding, but I do not think my understanding is unreasonable, and I expect that many others might notice that. My main point in my reply, that I would like you to take away, is that stating scripture, is not an interpretation, it is just stating scripture. I pointed out how, those scriptures might represent what I have come to believe. If the difference is not obvious, then I just wasted my time, but it will not be the first time I have done that. Thanks for taking the time to read my post and respond.
  12. “23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.” (Matthew 24:23-25, NIV). Have you noticed, just how often on Christian television, you hear the televangelists uttering the word: “release,” usually as they point their fingers in a certain direction, then in said direction, they order God to act! It seems as if this term is now ubiquitous throughout so many evangelical churches as I hear it all the time. However, what is it that they are hoping to release? It could be the Holy Spirit, but another more likely contender is the anointing, a claimed blessing which had been promoted by an obscure American group, who were collectively known as the latter rain movement in the 1940s, but which has today returned to much of the evangelical movement as a new and unchallengeable orthodoxy. This modern movement, largely within evangelicalism, hopes to anoint certain special Christians, so that such anointed ones will then become super-Christians, that is a new breed of powerful miracle workers, by working signs and wonders, who’ll then convert the world for the Lord. Now the anointing is the key, as it’s this anointing which turns ordinary Christians into miracle working evangelical super-Christians! In the light of this, isn’t it relevant that Christ himself warned that the chief sign of the last days will be the arrival of a great many false Christ’s, who would deceive the elect (Matthew 24:23-25). But when one understands that the word “Messiah” or “Christ,” means “the anointed,” this prophecy takes on a new light, so it could this be a prophecy of a great end time false signs and wonders movement? Could be the modern Church, led and typified by rich televangelists, who repeatedly announce that they are releasing the anointing upon their deceived victims, actually be the fulfilment of the prophesied false Messiahs (Christ’s) of Matthew 24:23?
  13. Hello, I have some profound things to share that are always open to debate. Hope to add something here and to grown in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
  14. Why I am Post-Millennialist (or a Spiritual Post Bi-Millennianist)! Post-Millennialism teaches that Christ comes back after the Millennium (portrayed as 1,000 years which is 10 - the number of perfection cubed; 10 x 10 x 10 = 1,000)! In Pre-Millennialism, Jesus is said to come back before the Millennium! There are three main pre-millennial schools, each of which relate to the specific timing of the Tribulation (pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib). On the other hand, with regard to Post-Millennialism, there are two main schools, firstly that that Millennium is situated here upon this earth which will become more and more Christianised over time, a view which is held by many theonomists, but which I would happen to reject. Secondly, that the Millennium refers to the reign of Christ over the souls of dead saints, who are currently ruling with Christ, in heaven ever since his ascension, and that this (millennial reign), will last until his second coming. This second view is the one I which hold to, basically it places the Millennium in heaven, where Christ rules over the souls of disincarnate spirits, during what is called the “intermediate state.” My own position has sometimes been called the A-Millennium view. But, I would reject that title, as it implies that there is no millennium at all, a position which I certainly and clearly have rejected. Also in much A -Millennium eschatology, Christ’s current reign is said to be within the hearts of his people (saints), many living upon this earth, which again as I stated I firmly reject, as I would regard the Millennial reign of Christ as exclusively situated in heaven. For this reason to save confusion, I am a Post-Millennialist, but one who would place Christ’s (spiritual) reign in heaven, as he is currently reigning, and this isn't a physical reign upon this earth, or within people’s hearts, he’s reigning in heaven NOW! Evidences for my position abound, namely Revelation 20:4 states that those people in the Millennium are said to be “souls,” which indicates only those dead saints in the intermediate state. Also, throughout Revelation, we repeatedly read of God’s throne being in heaven, for instance Revelation 4:2: “a throne set in heaven,” and Revelation 20:4 which states: “I saw thrones” which is speaking of those dead saints who are ruling with Christ, in heaven, during the intermediate state. So I’d argue that the Millennial reign has a heavenly setting, it is not based upon this earth, and neither is it within the hearts of God’s people, as many A-Millennialists have claimed! Also consider the idiocy of Christians assuming that Christ does not reign during the church age, or that this reign has no name, in either the Bible or in Christian Theology! It does have a name! it’s called the Millennium or thousand years! The phrase “a thousand years” is used six times in Revelation 20, traditionally, this refers to the Biblical period of human (biblical) history, personally I would not take it literally, a thousand is simply ten, which is the number of perfection cubed. However, of these six occurrences of the number one thousand, four refer from Adam to Christ, and two of these “one thousand years,” which specifically mention dead souls “reigning with Christ” at Revelation 20:4 and 20:6, apply to the church age, but with regard to Christ’s heavenly reign. Now seeing that this reign must be situated in heaven, and as every relevant mention of God’s throne in the Apocalypse is indeed set in heaven, the 1,000 years of verse 4 added to the 1,000 years of verse 6, gives us a period of approximately 2,000 years; from Christ’s ascension until his second coming which is the natural end of the intermediate state. For death itself is finished (done away with) at Christ’s second coming (1st Corinthians 15:23-26), this happens; “at the last trump” (1st Corinthians 15:52), that at Christ’s second coming, and not one thousand years after the second coming, as in Pre-Millennial eschatology. I have come to this position of mine after much dialogue with local Jehovah’s Witnesses (JW). I was intrigued that they, parroting the “latest light” from their Watchtower Society, claimed that Christ’s reign was not instituted at his ascension, despite Colossians 1:13 so clearly stating in the present tense, that at the time Paul had written this, Christ, was already a king over his own kingdom! These JWs would then reason that Christ’s kingdom was instituted in the year 1919, but as I pondered this, I came to realise that the Pre-Millennial view, so beloved of American Dispensationalists and their disciples within the Pentecostal movement, had many similarities to the JW position. Both positions failed to grasp that in scripture, be it the fall, salvation or Christ’s Kingdom, it’s always the spiritual first and then the physical second. So God was not lying when he said to Adam: “in the day you eat of it you shall surely die” (Genesis 2:17). Adam ate the fruit, but his fall was spiritual immediately, his physical death happened much later. So too in salvation, we are saved spiritually first, but the physical redemption of the body is a still future promise, after Christ’s second coming, and that despite what the Television money preachers on TBN and GOD TV will tell you (Romans 8:23). Finally, the first resurrection of Revelation 20:6 is obviously spiritual, (i.e. it refers to the salvation of the soul/spirit), that is of disincarnate “souls,” who are currently reigning with Christ during the intermediate state, which is a period of possibly 1,000 + 1,000 = 2,000 years, if you wish to take these numbers literally as American Dispensationalists like to insist upon. Now although it is not specifically mentioned by name, the second resurrection must be the redemption of the physical body mentioned at Romans 8:23, for remember that the Bible puts the spiritual first and the physical second with regard to both the fall and also to salvation. This (physical) salvation happens at the last trump (1st Corinthians 15:52), that is at Christ’s second coming, and not one thousand years after the expiration of some strange earthly millennium, of the saved and unsaved, living together as both disincarnate spirits (souls) as well as people with their souls upon this earth! Finally, remember that the “day of the Lord” (1st Thessalonians 5:2), which comes as a thief in the night, isn’t referring to the first part of some double-barrelled second coming, called the “rapture,” there is only one second coming and that permanently ends the intermediate state, which I maintain is the (spiritual) reign of Christ in heaven over the souls of his disincarnate saints. Thank you for considering my point of view. I am far from perfect and I'm open to help and correction. Robert
  15. I am shocked at people denying Christ's work as King: On another thread, I posted at length on a thread attempting to prove that Christ is currently King over his Kingdom, this Kingdom rule is spiritual, for since his ascension into heaven, Christ has been ruling as King over his deceased saints (in heaven), this is not some geographic reign based upon this earth, but a spiritual reign which will last until his second coming. Robert Redmond in his "New Systematic Theology of the Christian faith" on page 990, footnote 18 confirms this interpretation, that the "Kingdom of Heaven / Kingdom of God," both terms being fully interchangeable: "refers primarily to the reign, dominion or rule of God, and only secondarily to the realm over which his reign is exercised." It has therefore shocked me that I have been personally and repeatedly attacked, as both a (non-Christian) deist, as well as somebody who has been "seduced by the enemy" (meaning Satan), for advocating orthodox Christian theology, which would be accepted world-world in any number of non-American Fundamentalist Christian Churches for two thousand years. I am not some heretic for advocating orthodoxy, American evangelicals might regard their own particular brand of Fundamentalism as "the only Christian truth," but the reality is that other Christians regard theology differently, and as I have discovered, the ungraciousness, and the deliberate misrepresentations of their opponents position discredits their own testimony. Possibly the only way to discuss this online, is in a one on one moderated debate, as it seems that tempers quickly rise, but most annoying of all, it seems that no attempt whatsoever is made to even listen to the other side, by some, who delight in then dictating to the other side a series of deliberate "straw man" misrepresentations which are simply designed discredit me and my statements. When this happens no discussion is even possible, as one side is simply refusing to be fair. May I therefore throw open the offer of a one on one debate. I will outline below a few corrections of the most obvious errors which people have accused me of promoting, I may not respond to posts here in this thread, for the simple reason that I expect to be ignored and constantly misrepresented, however, a one on one debate does interest me. · Am I a Preterist? No I am not, I reject this claim that all prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70, as far as I am concerned, much of the Book of Revelation has still to be fulfilled, such as the appearance of beast, false prophet and mark 666 of chapter 13. · Am I a deist? No, I am not. God is not some wound up clock, moved by nature. God is Triune, an eternal omnipotent being who possesses self-will and sovereignty. In the 1980s I was briefly a Oneness Pentecostal, so the Trinity is now vital to me. · Being a Post-Millennialist don't I believe that things will get better and better? No I do not expect an ever improving world. I have pointed out repeatedly that not all Pre-Millennialists or Post-Millennialists believe and teach exactly the very same thing, the great 19th century Baptist Preacher C.H. Spurgeon was a Pre-Millennialist, yet his type of Pre-Millennialism rejected both the rapture, and the sharp dividing up the Jews from the Church, which almost all American Pre-Millennialists, who are dispensationalist futurists believe and teach. So likewise, my own Post-Millennialism sees the Kingdom (since the ascension and until the second coming), as a spiritual Kingdom which is currently situated in heaven, and I would not regard it as a geographic physical Kingdom upon this earth, which is created by things getting better and better as the Millennial Reign, as most Post-Millennialists will claim. · Do I believe in the rapture? That depends on how you define the rapture? For some people in this forum, whom I note are both American and Fundamentalist, the rapture is defined as "thinking exactly as I do," so by that definition I must reject the rapture. However, if by the rapture you mean that on the last day and at the last hour, the people of God are caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air, then I would say that I would certainly agree with that particular definition of the rapture. · Do I regard the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven as two different Kingdoms? No, God only has one people (Galatians 3:28), and one Kingdom, Robert Redmond in his "New Systematic Theology of the Christian faith" on page 538, points out that the terms "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven" are interchangeable (contrast Matthew 13:11 with Mark 4:11 and Luke 8:10); so "both terms refer to the sovereign rule of God." Remember that Redmond, on page 990, footnote 18 points our that the terms "the Kingdom;" "refers primarily to the reign, dominion or rule of God, and only secondarily to the realm over which his reign is exercised." So when I talk about the Kingdom, I am referring to something which I'd regard as currently spiritual, whilst almost all Post-Millennialists and (American) Pre-Millennialists, when they refer to the Kingdom, they do so not in the primarily sense as the spiritual rule of God, but referring to some geographic location. So we are at cross purposes, in that our definitions of the word "Kingdom" are not the same. · Do I reject the Millennium? No, the words "a thousand years" are used six times in Revelation 20, I would regard four of these as referring from Adam to Christ, and two occurrences, which mention of the reign of Christ (Revelation 20:4 and 6), as referring to Christ's present rule in heaven (a spiritual rule over his deceased saints). So unless I am mistaken, I'd regard the Millennial reign of Christ as spiritual, in heaven, and for two periods of "a thousand years" which makes a Millennial reign of Christ a period of two thousand years from his ascension until his second coming. · Do I reject the idea that Christ will reign upon the earth? No, Revelation 5:10 states of God's saints that: "we shall reign on the earth," so I would expect Christ our King to be here to, whether that is permanently or not I choose not to speculate. However, this reign of Christ on the earth, will be after the Millennial (Spiritual) reign of Christ (in heaven) has finished, at his second coming he returns to this world and only then, in the eternal state, will Christ then establish his physical and geographic (eternal) rule upon this earth from the city of Jerusalem. · Aren't the Jews on the earth and the Church in heaven eternally? No, that's taught in the Schofield Reference Bible notes, but not in the Bible itself. If you look on YouTube for the sermon: "Dispensationalism" by Stuart Olyott, in it he explains rather well the error of dividing up the people one God into two different groups with two different hopes. It's all based upon the faulty hermeneutic of using the Old Testament to interpret the New Testament, rather than the other way a round. · Aren't we arguing over semantics? Well I am not the one insulting others, and condemning people as satanic! As for dispensational theology, so beloved by American Fundamentalists, it has been undergoing a series of radical changes since the publication of the Revised Schofield Reference Bible in 1967. For American Fundamentalists in these forums to ignore challenges coming from their own scholars such as many from Dallas Theological Seminary, is to put your head in the sand! Classical Dispensationalism, as found is your typical Southern Baptist and Pentecostal church at pew level, is seriously being challenged by many of your top and most renouned dispensational scholars, who have developed more moderate forms of dispensational theology.
  16. “1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away …. 9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11” (Revelation 21:1-4 and 21:9-11, KJV). 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” (1st Corinthians 15:52-54, KJV). I have heard of many descriptions of the city, which is mentioned at Revelation 21:2 and 10, which descends down from God out of heaven, as a literal cubic stone structure of enormous dimensions. But such an understanding is completely mistaken, as related verses (verses 2 and 9), describes this city as the bride, the wife of the lamb, which is an obvious description of the church, albeit, using poetic language. The context is the second coming of Christ, and it is either at this glorious event (or very shortly after it), that the deceased saints of God, who had been ruling and reigning with Christ, as disincarnate spirits (that is as “souls” Revelation 20:4), accompany Christ back to this earth, in order to then receive their now resurrected and glorified bodies (1st Corinthians 15:52-53). This happens at the “last trump” (1st Corinthians 15:52), and when this happens, death itself ends, which prevents the interpretation that this passage is referring to a thousand year earthly Millennial reign upon this earth, at the end of which there will be a war with more death then taking place (1st Corinthians 15:54). So this “last trump” must refer to the second coming of Christ, it is also alluded to at (1st Thessalonians 4:16), where it is associated with “the day of the Lord” (1st Thessalonians 5:2), which can only imply the second coming of Jesus Christ.
  17. 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. At Ephesians 1:20, we read that God the Father seated Christ at his own right hand in the heavenly realms, which implies that in some sense Christ was made or appointed as King at the time of his ascension, in a spiritual (not literal sense), over his deceased saints (in heaven). Notice the use of the word “rule” at verse 21, Christ was ruling as King, in some sense according to Paul at the time of his writing this book of Ephesians. Now I am not denying that as Yahweh God himself, Christ is eternally King and has eternally been so due to his innate divinity. Also, at the time of the second coming, Christ’s kingdom will then be extended from heaven, unto to this earth, with the entire universe being under his Kingdom rule, which then becomes both a universal rule (i.e. without any challenge or opposition), and also an eternal rule. So please don’t misquote me, as I am not claiming that Christ’s rule is currently physical or upon this earth, I believe that his kingly rule is currently a spiritual rule over the “souls” of his deceased saints in the intermediate state and is from (or in) heaven. However, Revelation 11:15 states that one day (possibly in the very near future), we shall hear voices in heaven proclaiming that the kingdom of this present world has become the kingdom of Christ, and that He (Christ) will then reign forever and ever, in a greatly expanded kingdom rule which will now be physical, and earthly. I would believe that this expansion from spiritual to physical rule happens at the second coming of Christ, others will disagree, and claim that it will happen one thousand years later, at the conclusion of the ‘millennium.’ However, it will happen, at some time in the future. The title “King of Kings” is used of Christ twice at Revelation 17:14 and 19:16, to convey the fact that at some time in the future, his rule shall be both universal and completely unopposed, as his enemies will be this time be defeated.
  18. Now for something completely different, can different ideas be true? Okay, this video is about ideas concerning the flat earth theory, but . . . I think there is another thing touched upon in it, that is interesting to ponder. Don't get bogged down it the things that the video is trying to inform you of (unless you really want to), but instead, skip ahead to 8 minutes and 36 seconds nto the video. Consider what the narrator is trying to get accoss about how we know things, and how things can be seen from different perspectives, and different things can seem true from those perspectives, and perhaps, not really be as certain as we think they are. When you grasp the concept, if you grasp the concept, keep it in mind, next time you engage in or read debates on topics like pre-trib/post-trib eschatology, or Calvinism/Arminianism sotierology, etc. Above all, don't go crazy being to serious, relax and enjoy our differences. I am going to set the video here, to play from 8 minutes, 36 seconds forward, if you want to watch the whole thing, you will have to use the video player's slider, to start the video at the beginning. Fair warning: If you feel tempted to make a discussion/debate of this, especially the topic of the shape of the earth addressed in the video if you watch it from the beginning,, you may find yourself banned from participation in this thread, and your posts deleted. The thread (regardless of the topic that the video author intended) is about how it might be possible, for competing ideas to be true, as long as they are not directly contradictory to each other.
  19. Peter on the Last Days - Part Two ( part 1 is here ) I do not know how many parts there will bet, but this is the second installment, and deals with a little something we can glean from Act 3. Many will think I go too far - maybe I do. However, this is what I think I see there, related to end times sequences. In Acts Chapter 3, Peter is again addressing a group of people and lets us know something of what has been revealed to him about the last days. Now, the context is not a lecture on eschatology, it is a presentation of the Gospel near the temple in Jerusalem. Peter and John were there and encountered a man, crippled, who was begging. Peter said he did not have any money, but what he did have, he would give to the man. Then he said "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Walk!" (Act 3:6) The man was healed and walked with Peter and John, into the temple courts. The man seemed to be a bit excited (and why not) by his ability to walk for the first time in his life. The people round about, recognized the man as the guy who used to sit around begging for money and they were amazed. Peter seized this opportunity, to launch into a presentation of the Gospel, (Acts 3:12-25), part of which I will reproduce for you here: “Fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or Godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through Him that has completely healed him, as you can all see. 17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that He may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive Him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything He tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to Him will be completely cut off from their people.’ The reason I have only given you part of that sermon here, is that I am focusing in this series, on what Peter tells us, about the end times. So, in keeping with that, I want to point out verse 21 to you: “Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. “ Now, to restate that into plainer language, we could paraphase that sentence in this way: He (Jesus) must remain in Heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, just as He (God) has promised long ago through the prophets (in the scriptures) Now certainly, Peter is not here, giving us a discourse on eschatology, but he has revealed a little detail, that could clear up a misconception that some might have about the future actions of Jesus, things Jesus will be doing in our future. Peter has let us know here, that Jesus must remain in Heaven until certain things have happened, things which have been revealed, prophesied to happen, which are in our Old Testament. I am not certain what things Peter had in mind (possibly Isa 2:1-4, Isa 35, and Zech 14:1&14:8-11) when he said "the time to restore everything", but I think we can reasonably conclude certain things about this concept. For example: · The fact that Jesus must remain in Heaven until . . . the until lets us know that there will be a time where Jesus is no longer going to be restricted to Heaven, and He may return. · Clearly, this had not yet happened at the time Peter gave this sermon, and would be yet future · We know that Jesus has not returned as of this study, so it is still a future event · We know (from Matt 24 and other passages, that there is coming a time of great tribulation, and since the tribulation is the world at it's worst, that the tribulation does not qualify as a 'restoration of all things' · Since Jesus will not return until the time of restoration, and since we also know that Jesus WILL return, immediately after the great tribulation (Matt 24:29-31), it is a reasonable assumption, is that Jesus will not return before or during the tribulation · Since Jesus can not return UNTIL it is time to restore all things, and He will return after the tribulation, therefore, His return after the tribulation has to be the time to restore all things, there is no alternative that harmonizes with what we know from these verses which we have just examined. Psalm 110 says: 1The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” 2The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying, “Rule in the midst of your enemies!” 3Your troops will be willing on your day of battle. Arrayed in holy splendor, your young men will come to you like dew from the morning’s womb. Now, in this context of Jesus not returning until some event, notice that Jesus (apparently) is told by God the Father (in Heaven) to remain (there in Heaven, at God's right hand). The Bible is nothing, if not consistent. It is always agreeing with itself. If you have an understanding of a text, which does not harmonize with other Bible texts, then you have a wrong understanding, assuming that the Bible is accurate. While the ideas that I am pulling from these texts, may not be a correct understanding, they are not incompatible with each other, or other points of scripture, so they may well be correct. If my understanding is correct on these texts we are examining, then it appears again, that if Peter had the notion that Jesus would return (and he did), then Peter seems to understand that His return, will be after the great tribulation. Not only does he imply that Jesus will return after the tribulation, he states that Jesus will not return before it, making a pre-trib rapture impossible.
  20. Well, since I made a list once about some things the Bible does not say about the End Times, maybe I should list some thing that it does say. Now, I am expecting, that no one will argue that these things are not in the Bible, but I do not reasonably expect that there will not be people, who will want to comment on how these things do not mean what they appear to mean. I expect some comments from the Bible + crowd. The numbers are there to make it easier to reference things said, for any who find quoting difficult to do. So, in no particular order, and some possible redundancy: 1. There will be a time of trouble whcih Jesus called birth pangs √ 2. Followed by persecution, even to death, a time of tribulation. √ 3. There will be a specific sign to warn of it's nearness. √ 4. Then the tribulation will be great, but it will be limited it length to preserve life. √ 5. After the tribulation, Jesus will come visibly in the sky. √ 6. He then will send angels to gather His elect. √ 7. In Jesus time, only the Father knew the exact time of Jesus visible return √ 8. But it will be like the days of Noah, when calamity overtook the surprised unbelievers √ 9. Believers should also be ready for His return, though they do not know the exact time. √ 10. There will be a time when Jesus catches up (raptures) His church. √ 11. The Lord descends from Heaven, a shout, and angel, a trumpet, and those who have died in Christ rise first, then the living Christians join them in the air. √ 12. Believers are to look for a man of lawlessness to be revealed, and by that will know that the 2nd coming of Jesus, has become imminent. √ 13. Jesus will come like a thief on unbelievers, while watchful Christians will know that He is about to come. √ 14. Believers who die in the tribulation, for their testimony of Jesus, come to life in the first resurrection √ Taken from http://omegazine.com/nutshell.html
  21. The Post-trib position in a nutshell compared with the Bible A short bible study on a topic that some want to make way too complicated - Omegaman Post-Trib Belief What the Bible (NASB) Says The software here makes formatting difficult. There is an easier to read version if you prefer There will be a time of trouble Jesus called birth pangs You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7“For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 7“But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Followed by persecution, even to death, a time of tribulation 7“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. There will be a sign 15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Then the tribulation will be great, but it will be limited 21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. After the tribulation, Jesus will come visibly in the sky 29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. He then will send angels to gather His elect 31“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. In Jesus time, only the Father knew the exact time of Jesus visible return 36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. But it will be like the days of Noah, when calamity overtook the surprised unbelievers 37“For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38“For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Believers should also be ready for His return, though they do not know the exact time. 42“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 44“For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will. The Bible, to prevent deception. tells us the order of the events: 3As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you." Every verse listed so far, was from the 24th Chapter of the book of Matthew. You have just read them yourself, exactly as they are in the bible, and in the same order, so you can see for yourself, what Jesus said about these things.As you can see, He did not use figurative or symbolic language, he was very clear, and used lots of words which indicat time sequences, words like "then" and "at that time". There is no need to spin Jesus' words or make unwarranted assumptions, as many are tempted to do. Let's look at some more info from the apostles Paul and from John There will be a time when Jesus catches up (raptures) His church. From 1 Thess chapter 4 Notice again the sequence: The Lord descends from Heaven, a shout, and angel, a trumpet, and those who have died in Christ rise, Then the living Christian join them in the air. 13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Like Jesus before him, Paul also said there was a sign to look for, a sigh that would appear before our gathering to Him in the rapture. Beleivers are to look for this man, and by that will now that the 2nd coming of Jesus, is then imminent. 2 Thess 2 1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Jesus will come like a thief on unbeleivers, what watchful Christians will know that He is about to come. 1 Thess 5 1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. Since we know that the dead in Christ rise first, followed by the rapture (vs 16 & 17 of 1 Thess 4) of the living believers, if we only knew if that resurection was before or after the tribulation, we could understand if the rapture was before or after the tribulation. Beleivers who die in the tribulation, for their testimony of Jesus, come to life in the first resurrection, to be followed by the rapture (1 Thess 4:17) rapture. 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.) This is the first resurrection. This has been a brief summary of the Post Tribulation Rapture viewpoint, also known as Historic Premillenialism, along with some scripture passages which can be said to support this understanding. There were assertions, and there were supporting verses and passages, without inserting things like an invisible, secret coming (is there even one verse that says that? If so, I have never seen it), and idea that has become popular in modern times. I tried to keep this faithful to scripture, I tried to make it simple and clear. Jesus and Paul warned about deceptions to come, I take those warning seriously. Paul had this to say as well: 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 2 Tim 4 I will end with this thought from the book of Acts: 19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. Some versions render that as "He must remain in heaven until the time" Personally, I find all these verses harmonize perfectly well with each other, and I beleive the Post-Trib rapture position, is consistant with them as well. I hope you found this helpful and informative
  22. Guest

    Rightly dividing?

    In the topic of eschatology, few things are debated with more passion than the timing of the rapture with respect to the great tribulation. In online forums there are many opinions expressed. Some of them in my opinion are so far out there that few people if any take them very seriously. Some people read these topics and will express their opinion that the topics are not important. Somehow though, they seem to think it important to express their opinion that it isn't important. I have not quite figured that one out yet. One of the opinions often expressed is the tongue-in-cheek position:" I am pan tribulation". At the risk of possibly offending those people who say they are pan tribulation, I say this: "The pan-trib position is supposed to be cute or humorous, and I suppose it is the first time one hears it. By now though I am sure that I have heard it over 100 times, and to me it has become a worn-out old joke. I have been hearing it since the 1970s, so pardon me if I don't laugh too hard. Still there are those who are reading this post who have no doubt not heard of the pan-trib position even now. For their sakes I will explain the pan-trib position. "I do not care if the rapture is before, during, or after the tribulation, as long as it all pans out". I have very little respect for the pan-trib position. I suspect that people who hold that position fall into one of several categories: Perhaps they are too lazy to study the Bible. Perhaps they feel they are underqualified to have a real opinion. Perhaps they detest debate. Perhaps they are afraid to express their opinion. Sometimes they will make the point that eschatology is not a salvational issue and therefore is not worth having a strong opinion about. It often seems to escape their notice though, that almost all of the Bible is not about salvational issues, so I would have to guess that most of the Bible is also not important to them. Considering how much space (in the New Testament especially) is devoted to eschatology by the apostles and even by Jesus Himself I find it extremely difficult and even disrespectful to imply that the things that Jesus said and that the apostles (who were inspired by God to write) expressed, are of little importance. Coming up with flippant, worn-out remarks does not in my mind, justify what seems to be an aire of superiority in being wishy-washy about Scripture. I know I am on my high horse. I know I am often on my high horse. I know that I am on my high horse frequently lately. You can reply to this post and inform me of that if you wish, but don't think you're telling me anything that I do not already know and freely admit. As I have already stated there are many opinions and many positions in the field of eschatology. The different positions contradict each other of course and most of them (if not all of them) contradict Scripture at at least one point. No more than one position can be 100% accurate and perhaps none of them are. In spite of the fact that I have used a lot of words so far in this post, I really only want to invite comments on the following proposition: There are many reasons that people may use to explain why they believe what they believe about eschatology. With respect to the issue of whether or not the rapture is before, during, or after the great tribulation, I believe the following reasons should be discounted. The character of God argument. Some people believe that the church will not go through the great tribulation because it is not within the character of God to allow his church to suffer. This reasoning is invalid because God's people have always been allowed to suffer historically. This is true whether we are talking about the Jews or the Christians, prophets or apostles, martyrs since the time of Christ and even today, and of course Jesus himself who said a servant is not above his master. If God has allowed his people to suffer for thousands of years, how can we think that it is not in God's character to allow such suffering? Wishful thinking. It is so easy for us in the West to find the idea of suffering distasteful. Many of us have never missed a meal even one time in our entire life nor slept without a roof over our head unless it was by choice. We live in a time and in cultures where most people have access to transportation which requires no physical work, access to nearly continual entertainment and access to vast amounts of knowledge that we never had to study to obtain. I read just today that Google claims that the average Android user checks his or her Android 150 times each day. In these days of comfort and convenience, fast food and instant gratification, it is no wonder that some of us cannot conceive of going through a time of suffering and persecution lasting from 3-1/2 to 7 years. However, just because we have had it so easy does not mean there won't be a time when we will have it so hard. I have gone on long enough. I intended to list a lot of reasons which are not valid reasons for believing some of the things that we do believe. It seems to me that in the area of eschatology the only reason to believe anything is because the Bible tells us so. I am sure that many of us believe we believe what the Bible says about these things. It is my observation however that many of us if not most of us believe what we believe by taking preconceived ideas to the Scripture and then interpreting the Scripture in a way that agrees with what we already believe about it, rather than taking Scripture at its word and adjusting our thinking to align with what the Bible itself says. Do we really want to be a people who gather to themselves teachers who will tell us what our itching ears want to hear? Or do we think that the better idea is to be like the Bereans, and search the Scriptures daily to see whether these things be so?
  23. I am going to ask a lot of you here. It will require thinking and work, I don't expect too mauch participation for that reason. I said in the title, that all views are welcomed. I do noit intend that to mean that everyone with a view is welcomed. What do I mean by that? I mean that I hope thi will be a high quaility, informative thread, one participated in by those who actually study and dig. I am not looking for opinions, almost everyone has one. If your particular view of eschatology, comes from reading fictional novels or watching movies, of from listenting to your pastor or reading books from one point of veiw, you might not be a good candidate for participating in this thread, though I cannot prevent that. This thread is not intended to find out what you beleive, but to see the reasons people have for beleiving what they believe, from their personal bible studies. Let me illustrate what I am after here by example. Over the years I have been in my share of discussion on the topic of eschatology. I become frustrated by my perception, that people who disagree with me, seem to have not just a different conclusion than I do, but different way of thinking altogether, and a different set of rules they use for interpreting scripture. For example, people will say: "The Bible does not say there is no rapture before the tribulation" or they will say: "The Bible clearly teaches, that beleivers will be caught up in the Rapture, before the Great Tribulation" Those kind of statements, frustrate me. It is as though they have this secret knowledge, that if the bible fails to say something, then the opposite of what it does not say, must be true. The seem to have secret knowledge, that if a rapture is mentioned, then it must be a secret rapture before the tribulation, becuase they fail to state how they know that it is not after the tribulation. So, what I am proposing, is that people identify their position briefly, give your self a label or give a short sequence of events, that lets us know basically what you beleive. Personally I am known as an Historic Premillennialist, often times referred to as a post tribulationalis. I order things this way: Daniels 70th week begins The time of birthpains and some tribulation The appearance of the man of sin Great tribulation God's wrath begins (near the end or at the end of the tribulation) 70th week closes Jesus appears, coming in the clouds The dead in Christ are raised and caught up to be with Christ (known as the first ressurection) Living believers follow just after The living and the dead in Christ are all changed to their glorifed bodies They return with Christ to the Earth Battle of Armegeddon Jesus wins The Millenium begins The final battle where evil is dealt with permantanly Now, I left some details out, and I am flexible on some, but that is a general outline of my understanding. I would like to see similar info from all who participate in this thread, and it is ok to say on a given point, that you are uncertain. There is no shame in that, it might even be a good thing. What I want to see developed here once and if the thread gets developed a little, is why you beieve what ever point you are going to address. That means specifically, provide the verse(s) or passage(s) that you feell make your case, as well as why you thing your conclusion from the passage is justified - what rules or reasons do you have for your particular opinion about the verse. I will start of with an example. My assertion: The rapture happens after the Great Tribulation My texts: 1 Thess 4:15-17 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Rev 20:4-6 4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Now, I might point out that verses like Luke 22:30 and others indicate that beleivers from before the tribulation, sit on thrones judgeing but that is not the thrust of the arguemne, it is just to but asiade the possibe objection that Rev 20 speaks of tribuation saints only.) My Conclusion: Premise one: We know from 1 Thess 4:16-17 that the dead are raised before the rapture of the living saints. Premise two: We know from Rev 20:4 that those Christians who died in the Great Tribulation are included in the first resurrection (Rev 20:5) Conclusion: If the first resurection happens after the Great Tribulation, and if living beleivers at the rapture are caught up subsequent to the beleivers who are ressurected, then it follows that the Rapture is some time after the Great Tribulation. Reason for undertanding these verses in this way: A universally accepted rule of interpreation, is to compare scripture with scripture, which I have done here. I have provided a sequence of events, specified by scripture itself, not by assertions. Words mean things, in this case, I assume that the word 'first' in first resurrection means first among resurrections yet to occur (and distinct from the second ressurection), since it obviously does not referr to prior resurrections which had already taken place when John penned the Book of Revelation. I have used the rule of exegesis which states, "always take a verse or passage in a literal sense, unless there is some compelling reason not to do so". So, using common rules of interpretation, and understanding the passages in their most natural senses, I beleive it is reasonalbe to conlude that the scripture teaches that there is a Great Tribulation in which beleivers die and join those beleivers who have died previously, and who shall be raides after the great tribulation and prior to the rapture. Now to help you further understand what I am hoping to accomplish in this thread, I hope that there are predicted events posted, that come from various viewpoints, in order that we will have a collection of ideas, which have not only the verses and the conclusions, by why we should accept the conclusions as valid. In this way, people can examing the beleifs, and decide for themselves if the reasons for the understanding are really valid, or just assertions with poor or non-existant evidence. Let's try to be civil, and lets just make one point per post, in order to keep the posts at readable lengths. Let's try use language that is understood by all or most people, For example, I used the word exegesis . Many readers will have no idea what that is. I suggest that the posts be as short as possible, while still getting the point across, as many automaticall just skip over lengthy posts. I beleive that if we do this correctly, this thread will become a valuable resource, hopefully with more meat and less heat. I suggest, that the goal is not to win an arguement, if that is why you are here, you will probably learn little if anything. Neither you nor I have a monopoly on the truth nor a monopoly on God's Holy Spirit assisting our understanding. If you think otherwise, please do not participate. "We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know"(1 Cor:8) The urge to rebutt other view points will be strong. There is a place for that, and I am not suggesting that it cannot be done. However, I beleive that most of the time, it would better to present the evidence for what you believe that contradicts the other viewpoint, so that most of the posts here consist of evidence for a belieif, rather than evidence against a belief. Feel free to offer other suggestions, and may God's truthes shine to His glory, and to the edificationof the saints.
×
×
  • Create New...