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  1. There is a lot written about the return of Christ. I have also heard some people speak of the return of Elijah. His return is, of course, mentioned at the end the Old Testament book of Malachi. And of course, Jesus said that Elijah had returned in the form of John the Baptist. But as to whether he will return again prior to the return of Jesus or not, there seems to be some opinion both ways on this question. I was wondering if anyone here knows if there is a prevailing view, and if so, which one? Or maybe some churches understand it one way, while others understand it the other? Or do most simply leave it as an open question of individuals to decide on?
  2. These are videos I did, concerning the doctrine of the imminent return of Christ. There are more videos in the series, but this to deal with Matt 24. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/142668-jesus-imminent-return-parts-1-4posts-1-12-15-16/ https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/142668-jesus-imminent-return-parts-1-4posts-1-12-15-16/?do=findComment&comment=1849766 The videos are about ten minutes long each. Reading the same material, if I typed it out, might have taken longer to read and digest. Watch if you like, I won't be offended it you do not
  3. I primarily use the NASB, but occasionally I find it deficient; I will insert other translations if they can clarify the context. Those translations will be duly noted. Chapter one was an appropriate greeting, but chapter two stands alone and begins to immediately address fears that have come as the result of some false teaching. This theme was not a new to Paul as he had written to the Christ-followers in Thessalonica on a previous occasion. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 NASB 13) But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16) For the Lord, Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Considering the years between these two letters, the new members that had been added to the church body, and the addition of some false teachings, the fear has had a chance to creep in. I see the effects of false teachings frequently in the church bodies I have had dealings with, as people espouse things they know so little about; all the while continuing to cloud the issue. So let's dissect the passages and see if we can understand all that Paul is trying to say. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 NASB 1) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. “with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,” Coming – is the Greek word parousia; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked.) Strong's concordance. In the explanation above I see two distinctly different things. One being Jehovah's return in the clouds to catch His church away. This catching away is called the harpazo, but it is also known as the advent or return. The second possible understanding is this idea of the punishment of Jerusalem or the wicked. This concept pertains to the wrath of God being poured out. One of the keys to understanding the difference between Jesus return for His church and His coming as the conquering Messiah hangs on this phrase - " the day of the Lord.” Using the NASB concordance, the expression shows up in 22 verses. 18 of those references are found in the Old Testament. Since the Tenach is designed for a Jewish audience then the language and references are expressly Jewish; that means that the phrase – the day of the Lord, is almost exclusively about the return of the Messiah. Of the four verses left and found in the New Testament, three of them are exclusively about the catching away of the church. This catching away is that time when Jesus comes back in the clouds for His church, and they will be caught up to meet Him in the air. 2Peter 3:10 leans more toward the time of the end, as it tells us that, “the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” While all of these things are a part of the seven-year period the implications are that this will happen almost all at once when Jesus returns to the earth for the final time. You see, this is one of those areas that are not that black and white. So, let's see if the context of the passage answers the question about when this event will happen. While I understand that Paul was addressing the body of believers in Thessalonica (a primarily Jewish audience,) these words also apply to us. I do not hear this complaint or question anymore, but I am aware that many do believe that Christ has already returned. If that is the case, what are we doing and why are we wasting our time? But Christ has not already returned. How do I know that? Well there are markers, or some might think of them as guideposts along the way, and Paul spells them out. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 NASB 3) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4) who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. “The apostasy comes first.” Since apostasy means a falling away, I ask you, has that happened? Absolutely, and at an exponential rate. “and the man of lawlessness is revealed,” I want to show you some alternate readings. This second selection is from the Complete Jewish Bible, and it translates this passage entirely different from anyone else. Why is this significant? Because even the Muslims have prophecies, and one of them describes such a man; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Darby Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 CJB Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom. A man who is a descendant of Aaron – The priests were to come from the lineage of Aaron. Since we know that the temple will be rebuilt, then practically every preparation would have to be made at this point, for a high priest to be installed. He then would be the one to enter the Holy of Holies and sprinkle the blood of the lamb. The Muslim prophecies tell us that this Jew will reject the Torah, pay homage to the Mahdi, and follow him. Do you grasp the depth of this action? Many who have esteemed this Jew enough to appoint him as the high priest over the new temple will be deceived, turn from the true God, and follow his actions as they too will bow to the Mahdi in worship. This Mahdi appears to be the Islamic religious leader that will soon be saying peace peace. Most of this takes place 1260 days into the time of wrath upon the earth. I am always concerned that people will see my words as unbelievable. If, you are a follower of Jesus Christ, then, you are under a mandate to study to show not only, yourself, to be approved by God, but to judge the words being said to you, as to whether they are true or not. You are not doing this type of study to bash people, although I sometimes think that many should shut their mouths, but you are studying these things so that you can know what is right. Let me show you an example: I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, regardless of the poor choice of words we traditionally use. Although there is a voluminous amount of those in opposition to this understanding, I did my homework and became even more thoroughly convinced that Jesus is coming back for His church that is waiting for Him, and, He is going to do so before God's wrath is poured out upon the earth. Specific reasons why I believe in a pre-wrath rapture. Matthew 3:7 NASB But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? The obvious thing I see here is that Jesus just acknowledged that it is purposeful to flee from the wrath, and, that there is wrath coming. Luke 21:23 NASB ... for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; Here we can see that the intended target is the land and these people. Now the statement, "o this people" is relatively generic and needs some clarity. Luke 21:24 NASB tells us that “they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations;” It is easy enough to see that a part of this fulfillment comes upon Israel and it's people, the Jews. However, pay attention, and you can see one other group, the Gentiles. The Gentiles and the nations are the same. If you are not a Jew, and you are a follower of Christ, then you have been engrafted into the vine and no longer fall under the category of being a Gentile in God's eyes. Those with a veil over their eyes will not get this concept. Since we are “in Christ” then we are part of the church and not subject to this wrath. Romans 1:18 NASB For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, What is evident to me is the terminology, the wrath of God. Pay attention to the words being used and upon whom they are directed. Romans 1:18 can be taken as a somewhat broad spectrum statement. An example of this broad spectrum idea – I know a man who came to church for a time and did all the appropriate things. He came down front, cried his eyes out, made sorrowful and repentant statements. Why he even got baptized in a swimming pool as a symbol of this new and changed life he wanted to live. That didn't last long. Does he belong to God and is therefore not going to be subject to this wrath because he is part of the church. I do not know, because any fruit he produces is rotten and stinks before it falls off the tree. This pattern has been going on for years. Ephesians 2:3 NASB Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. The Apostle Paul taught that we were formerly children of wrath, and no longer subject to the “wrath of God.” 1 Thessalonians 1:10 NASB 10) and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 is one of the most specific examples that Paul gave us. Since we are in Christ, Jesus has rescued us from the wrath that is to come. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 NASB 9) For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, Many think that we deserve punishment. Well, that might have been true, but as followers of Christ, we are of those who have agreed to and accepted His salvation. You see, you need to have a firm grasp on what Jesus did. I am continually trying to remind people that all sins were forgiven – past, present, and future. Then what are people being punished for? Look at what Colossians 3:5-6 tells us, Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6) For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, NASB Simply put, you either follow Jesus, or you follow the god of this world, Satan. He will go to an eternal punishment, as will all those who choose to follow him. This punishment, as many want to believe, is not the end-all statement, as God is a merciful God beyond everything else; ask Jonah. And that is why we have the sheep and goats of Matthew 25. Take the time to study that. Revelation 6:14-17 NASB 14) The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15) Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16) and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17) for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" There are three things I want you to see here. Verse 15 gives us a description of some of the people affected by what is happening: kings of the earth; great men; commanders; the rich and strong, and every slave and free man. No one upon the earth is left unscathed by what is coming. In verse 16 we see them crying out to be hid from the presence of “Him who sits on the throne, AND from the wrath of the Lamb. This lamb is Jesus Christ. Since I used an example from the Revelation, let me point something out to you. This entire book is a Revelation of Jesus Christ. Even the rich, in this scenario, understood that God played a hand in this, and at the same time, they are acknowledging Jesus. It's all about Jesus. And the last thing, although I have already intimated it, is that this wrath is coming from God/Jesus. Since we are going to be like Bereans, a people who had enough sense to verify that what Paul was teaching was right, what then do we use as a basis for what is true? Keep in mind, that the Bereans did not have Bibles, they had some scrolls. Those scrolls were so valued that only a limited number of priests could handle them, and so the Torah and Tanakh were read aloud. This idea of scrolls changes the whole idea of Bible study. The Bereans had no New Testament, it was being spoken in their ears by Paul and lived out right in front of them. I, on the other hand, have over thirty translations of the Bible on my computer, and over forty commentaries that I can glean from. I have no excuses. The answer to the question is The Word of God. Now, since we know that there are errors across translations, is it wise to merely open the NIV for example, read it, and then say, “this is how that is supposed to be understood!” NO, because, as I said, there are errors. (Do not for a moment think that these errors are on God's part, as God's wisdom has been substantiated by His ability to get His message across plainly to those who choose to pursue this wisdom.) So, what am I saying to you? Be open but alert; trust the Holy Spirit to guide you; judge everything against the word of God, and, remove yourself, if you can, from false teachers. They will corrupt you with the simplest of things, such as David conquering Goliath when David was only four foot tall. That is not even close to the terminology used in the descriptions of David. King Saul, who knew David well for David was his ARMOR bearer, called him a youth. But what does that mean? Are these things critical to the story? NO, but if you are willing to build false images about the nature and character of David, what else will a false teacher do with God and His word. I can tell you what some will do, for I have experienced this first hand. These false teachers send everyone that comes to the Great White throne judgment to hell. There is nothing about that scenario that definitively points to that happening; these same teachers refuse to see that Matthew 25 and the story of the sheep and the goats, is just another picture of the Great White Throne. In other words, they will twist the gospel so tightly that in time, you will not be able to understand what is true.
  4. Parousia παρουσία Strong's 3952 The Greek word parousia ( παρουσία ) is a word translated in our English Bibles to the words coming, arrival, or presence. The word is common in eschatological contexts, and occurs 24 times. Below you can see how and where the word is used. It derives from para (alongside) and eimi (I am), thus it is a coming to be alongside. It is notable, that this is a noun, 3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present or to arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially arrival by an owner, who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousia) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit'" (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S). [3952 (parousia) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence'" (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).] Address Text Form Matt 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” παρουσίας Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular Matt 24:27 “For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. παρουσία Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular Matt 24:37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. παρουσία Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular Matt 24:39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. παρουσία Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular Matt 24:42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming*. erchomai 1 Cor 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, παρουσία Noun - Dative Feminine Singular 1 Cor 16:17 I rejoice over the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus, because they have supplied what was lacking on your part. παρουσία Noun - Dative Feminine Singular 2 Cor 7:6 But God, who comforts the depressed, comforted us by the coming of Titus; παρουσία Noun - Dative Feminine Singular 2 Cor 7:7 and not only by his coming, but also by the comfort with which he was comforted in you, as he reported to us your longing, your mourning, your zeal for me; so that I rejoiced even more. παρουσία Noun - Dative Feminine Singular 2 Cor 10:10 For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his personal presence is unimpressive and his speech contemptible.” παρουσία Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular Phil 1:26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again. παρουσίας Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular Phil 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; παρουσία Noun - Dative Feminine Singular 1 Thess 2:19 For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence** of our Lord Jesus at His coming? παρουσία Noun - Dative Feminine Singular 1 Thess 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. παρουσία Noun - Dative Feminine Singular 1 Thess 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. παρουσία Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular 1 Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. παρουσία Noun - Dative Feminine Singular 2 Thess 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, παρουσία Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular 2 Thess 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; παρουσία Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular 2 Thess 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, παρουσία Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular Jas 5:7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. παρουσία Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular *here the word is not parousia, it is erchomai, included to demonstrate that not all instances of the word coming in English, stems from the Greek word parousia **here the word is not parousia, it is emprosthen, usually translated “before”, as in bow down before him Parousia παρουσία Strong.docx
  5. Daily Reading 29 If you prefer, you can look up the following verses in your own Bible, of by whatever means and in whatever version you choose. Luke 21 Genesis 38 Psalm 29 Audio 4:18 Audio 4:34 Audio 1:16 The above addresses are linked to Bible Gateway. That is an easy way to read (or listen to) the Bible verses, and choose your version. Personally, I prefer written, that way I can go at my own pace, on think about it, before moving on. Nothing wrong with doing either or both. The Bible says faith comes by hearing. See the picture below to get an idea of what to expect if you follow the above links. Note: The audio will not play the exact verses, it will play the whole chapters, in which the verses exist. Thank you Lord for making the your word so accessible for us in these times. Amen
  6. This topic will be discussing Matthew chapters 24-25. But the following verses specifically. Please feel free to use the entire 2 chapters or any other book and chapter of the bible on the return of Jesus to express your point of view. Matthew 24: 30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 25 : 31-32 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Above are the verses I have questions about. I would like to know how everyone understands these verses in context to Matthew 24-25 as a whole. For both chapters are talking about the end times. It is one long disclosure by Jesus on the end times, and in this long disclosure he mentions his return twice in very interesting detail. 1. Do these verses say Jesus returns twice? 2. Why does the 1st verse above say he returns to gather his elect, while the 2nd verse talks about gathering all nations to him? 3. Why do the verses around the first verse above refer to Jesus only as the son of man, while the verses around the 2nd verses above refer to Jesus as King? 4. Doesn't the gathering of his elect and the gathering of all nations to Jesus first happen at 2 different times? 5. Are these verses talking about a single return of Jesus or 2 different returns of Jesus? 6. Isn't the comment about separating the sheep from the goats a reference to the final judgement in revelation, while the first return to gather his elect more in line with the rapture? 7. Are they both the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus or is only the 2nd set of verses above talking about the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth by Jesus and the first set of verses above talking about the rapture? I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on this. May God bless you all Firestormx
  7. I am going to ask a lot of you here. It will require thinking and work, I don't expect too mauch participation for that reason. I said in the title, that all views are welcomed. I do noit intend that to mean that everyone with a view is welcomed. What do I mean by that? I mean that I hope thi will be a high quaility, informative thread, one participated in by those who actually study and dig. I am not looking for opinions, almost everyone has one. If your particular view of eschatology, comes from reading fictional novels or watching movies, of from listenting to your pastor or reading books from one point of veiw, you might not be a good candidate for participating in this thread, though I cannot prevent that. This thread is not intended to find out what you beleive, but to see the reasons people have for beleiving what they believe, from their personal bible studies. Let me illustrate what I am after here by example. Over the years I have been in my share of discussion on the topic of eschatology. I become frustrated by my perception, that people who disagree with me, seem to have not just a different conclusion than I do, but different way of thinking altogether, and a different set of rules they use for interpreting scripture. For example, people will say: "The Bible does not say there is no rapture before the tribulation" or they will say: "The Bible clearly teaches, that beleivers will be caught up in the Rapture, before the Great Tribulation" Those kind of statements, frustrate me. It is as though they have this secret knowledge, that if the bible fails to say something, then the opposite of what it does not say, must be true. The seem to have secret knowledge, that if a rapture is mentioned, then it must be a secret rapture before the tribulation, becuase they fail to state how they know that it is not after the tribulation. So, what I am proposing, is that people identify their position briefly, give your self a label or give a short sequence of events, that lets us know basically what you beleive. Personally I am known as an Historic Premillennialist, often times referred to as a post tribulationalis. I order things this way: Daniels 70th week begins The time of birthpains and some tribulation The appearance of the man of sin Great tribulation God's wrath begins (near the end or at the end of the tribulation) 70th week closes Jesus appears, coming in the clouds The dead in Christ are raised and caught up to be with Christ (known as the first ressurection) Living believers follow just after The living and the dead in Christ are all changed to their glorifed bodies They return with Christ to the Earth Battle of Armegeddon Jesus wins The Millenium begins The final battle where evil is dealt with permantanly Now, I left some details out, and I am flexible on some, but that is a general outline of my understanding. I would like to see similar info from all who participate in this thread, and it is ok to say on a given point, that you are uncertain. There is no shame in that, it might even be a good thing. What I want to see developed here once and if the thread gets developed a little, is why you beieve what ever point you are going to address. That means specifically, provide the verse(s) or passage(s) that you feell make your case, as well as why you thing your conclusion from the passage is justified - what rules or reasons do you have for your particular opinion about the verse. I will start of with an example. My assertion: The rapture happens after the Great Tribulation My texts: 1 Thess 4:15-17 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Rev 20:4-6 4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Now, I might point out that verses like Luke 22:30 and others indicate that beleivers from before the tribulation, sit on thrones judgeing but that is not the thrust of the arguemne, it is just to but asiade the possibe objection that Rev 20 speaks of tribuation saints only.) My Conclusion: Premise one: We know from 1 Thess 4:16-17 that the dead are raised before the rapture of the living saints. Premise two: We know from Rev 20:4 that those Christians who died in the Great Tribulation are included in the first resurrection (Rev 20:5) Conclusion: If the first resurection happens after the Great Tribulation, and if living beleivers at the rapture are caught up subsequent to the beleivers who are ressurected, then it follows that the Rapture is some time after the Great Tribulation. Reason for undertanding these verses in this way: A universally accepted rule of interpreation, is to compare scripture with scripture, which I have done here. I have provided a sequence of events, specified by scripture itself, not by assertions. Words mean things, in this case, I assume that the word 'first' in first resurrection means first among resurrections yet to occur (and distinct from the second ressurection), since it obviously does not referr to prior resurrections which had already taken place when John penned the Book of Revelation. I have used the rule of exegesis which states, "always take a verse or passage in a literal sense, unless there is some compelling reason not to do so". So, using common rules of interpretation, and understanding the passages in their most natural senses, I beleive it is reasonalbe to conlude that the scripture teaches that there is a Great Tribulation in which beleivers die and join those beleivers who have died previously, and who shall be raides after the great tribulation and prior to the rapture. Now to help you further understand what I am hoping to accomplish in this thread, I hope that there are predicted events posted, that come from various viewpoints, in order that we will have a collection of ideas, which have not only the verses and the conclusions, by why we should accept the conclusions as valid. In this way, people can examing the beleifs, and decide for themselves if the reasons for the understanding are really valid, or just assertions with poor or non-existant evidence. Let's try to be civil, and lets just make one point per post, in order to keep the posts at readable lengths. Let's try use language that is understood by all or most people, For example, I used the word exegesis . Many readers will have no idea what that is. I suggest that the posts be as short as possible, while still getting the point across, as many automaticall just skip over lengthy posts. I beleive that if we do this correctly, this thread will become a valuable resource, hopefully with more meat and less heat. I suggest, that the goal is not to win an arguement, if that is why you are here, you will probably learn little if anything. Neither you nor I have a monopoly on the truth nor a monopoly on God's Holy Spirit assisting our understanding. If you think otherwise, please do not participate. "We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know"(1 Cor:8) The urge to rebutt other view points will be strong. There is a place for that, and I am not suggesting that it cannot be done. However, I beleive that most of the time, it would better to present the evidence for what you believe that contradicts the other viewpoint, so that most of the posts here consist of evidence for a belieif, rather than evidence against a belief. Feel free to offer other suggestions, and may God's truthes shine to His glory, and to the edificationof the saints.
  8. Should the Bride of Christ (the Church) Return to its Hebrew Roots? I'm also interested in Scripture that backs this line of thinking. In Christ, Jon Ground Rules: Let us remember humility, as Believers we are heirs of God with Christ. (Philippians 2:3; 1 Peter 5:5, Romans 8:17) Remember we are to seek restoration with a spirit of gentleness. (Galatians 6:1) We are to be kind and tenderhearted to one another. (Ephesians 5:32)
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