Instantaneous sanctification-being made holy

[JCISGD]

While browsing the related threads post`s i came accross two attempts to answer what and how sanctification exists.

One by George which i read 40 % of the posts esp begining and end and one by givenname that got sidetracked i think. And neither gave what i believe was a satisfactory explanation.

I dont say this in pride, and i havnt come into the experience i am about to describe. But here is what i now understand and if any man beat me to it, i can only rejoice.

Circumcision is symbolic of Christ` work in our hearts. Now sanctification may in part be a process i dont know, but the flesh was cut off in one swipe.

The fact that two words justification and sanctification is enough to prove sanctification does not occur at salvation, although positionally this may be so. Every thing was finished on the cross positionally.

To be clear, justification is a gift and work of God recieved by faith. But what i hope to show here is that sanctification is also a gift and a work of God, yet a second work and not to do with salvation but purification.

When we get saved we experience a rush or measure of Gods Spirit. This greatly subdues sin in our life and it is marvelous how that first year is so much like a honeymoon. But if your anything like me, gradually some sins that you thought were gone, began to rise up. Through prayer, fellowship and the word we find a measure of sucess in subduing and even overcoming some sins, depending on the degree of obedience to these disciplines.

This is what disturbs many, that it seems impossible to rid all sin, and yet we know instinctively that surely theres more to it than this for a child of God.

So we either try harder or we begin to hide behind fig leaves. Both methods will not work, and God tries to call us out of them.

In my own case i became very discouraged and began to think the gospel to be the "bad news". I wanted to be victorious and see Gods power set people free, but my own life seem to sink into the quicksand of sin. The more i struggled the more i sank.

It was at a very low point that i cried out to the Lord, and He showed me that although i was saved i needed to hold still while he performed heart surgery on me. We all need and can get a new heart subsequent to salvation. The old heart/man is wicked beyond repair and putting a patch on it will not do.

How? only God knows, when? when we believe Him and ask Him to do it, leaving it in His hands, in His time and His way. This is what it means to be Holy as God is Holy. What He commands, He also gives grace to do but in this case He is the one that does it. This is sanctification proper.

It is Christ living in us with a new heart that He is well pleased to dwell with. So it is no longer i that lives but Christ in me the hope of glory. This is not a theological theory or a positional placing that Paul enthusiastically proclaims, its a reality for him and can be for us too.

Well thats my take on it, i have much more i could say, but will leave it for readers to decide if it reasonates. I do not intend to debate this so take it or leave it.

I may post more later depending on the response, but not in direct reply necessarily.

[Guest]

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

John 15:4-5

[JCISGD]

Paul even later in his life considered himself to be the chiefest of sinners.

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

If sanctification were 'instantaneous' then Pauls words make no sense when he makes those sorts of statements.

Paul tells us VERY plainly that he still had not attained perfection.

Not that I have already obtained, or have already been made perfect; but I press on, if also I may lay hold of that for which I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

(Php 3:12)

But he is in constant pursuit of perfection.

Many acolytes of 'instantaneous sanctification' fallaciously believe that they HAVE come to perfection. Many believe somewhat differently such as their soul doesnt sin even when their flesh does...as tho perfection of the spirit is attained even if the flesh is morally bankrupt.

John says very clearly that the man who says he is without sin deceives himself and the truth is not in him;

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

So it is a process that we will never complete in this lifetime.

Some adherents to this 'instant sanctification' error that Ive crossed literally believed they werent sinning when everyone around them could see that they were. They simply had convinced themselves that the sin they committed either wasnt sin....or that their spirit wasnt accountable to that sin the flesh committed.

One chap in particular was a preacher who basically told me he was sanctified and altho he didnt say he didnt sin his intent was clear enough in some of the other nonsense he said to me....and all the while the man was embezzling from his own congregation and apparently cheating on his wife. Yet for whatever reason HE honestly believed that he wasnt sinning. The man had used a false doctrine to program himself into believing he was sanctified even tho he was in horrible sin.

I believe Johns words, personally.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we say we have no sin we're fooling ourselves....truth is not in us.

"Sanctification" as it is used by some is a ongoing process that we will never complete in this lifetime.

In actuality sanctificatoin is something we ALL have in Christ..

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The fact that two words justification and sanctification is enough to prove sanctification does not occur at salvation, although positionally this may be so. Every thing was finished on the cross positionally.

To be clear, justification is a gift and work of God recieved by faith. But what i hope to show here is that sanctification is also a gift and a work of God, yet a second work and not to do with salvation but purification.

Semantics.

Scripture tells us that we are sanctified by the offering of Christ, lets not add things to Gods word to make scripture say something that it doesnt say....

I was willing to give you some credit of knowledge and sound doctrine, but your statement at the top that Paul was a avid sinner, begs belief.

You cannot be serious, and yet i know you are. Paul is surely talking of his pre Christian life, and was not some jeckal and hyde based on Romans 7:15+16.

Romans is a book of theology and Paul is not speaking of himself, but of the Christian passage from death to life, and sin to sanctification.

Paul who claimed he had a clear conscience before both God and man, and lived holy and blameless before all men, was not a sinner but a man whom God had sanctified completly. A close look at the lives of the other Apostles after pentecost, will reveal the same.

The fact that you or i struggle to overcome sin, does not mean others have not. And our struggle just shows that its us still trying to do it, instead of yeilding and allowing God to do it. Sorry FoC but if you want to flounder around in your unhappy state your welcome, but stop being like the pharisee`who were stopping others from entering in.

[JCISGD]

You are not keeping your own rules of the Whole Word of God.

So where it suits you make it fit. You did not answer my objections but go ahead and deny the scriptures i presented.

John was not saying no one could be free of sin, this contradicts many other scriptures and tenors of the bible.

John is saying if we claim we have no sin,(never sinned) by way of denial of its existence, then we are liars, "for all HAVE sinned".

This is my final post to you on doctrine or theology, as you have proved not one point to me, and i know only too well the school of thought you belong to.

[Paul 84]

So JCISGD I'm a little foggy here are you talking about a Christian being able to become totally sinless.

[JCISGD]

So JCISGD I'm a little foggy here are you talking about a Christian being able to become totally sinless.

Hi Paul, yes i am saying not only that, but that the Apostles claimed this if not directly, then by implication of their instructions to others.

Is it not hypocritical for Peter to say " Be holy in ALL your conduct" 1 Pet 1:15 if he was not walking in this himself ?

Paul says of himself that he walked, "holy, and blameless before God and all men, having a clear conscience in All things", if this is not holiness then what is ?

It is wrong to demand clear instructions where it is naturally and easily understood by an honest study.

The problem occurs when people apply a unfounded understanding of being holy where this applies to humans.

I absolutely refute the idea that it is a positional or a denied sin claim to holiness.

It is holy to the degree of light and grace that God has provided to that individual, no more and no less.

That is, at every turn they grab hold onto the grace God provides to make the right choice.

It does not mean the person cannot sin, but is not IN sin and that if sin is not ever indulged, then is atleast a very rare exception under vexing temptation.

Is it harder to say YES than NO ? Sin is always a choice not to take hold of Gods grace and nothing else.

I THINK that because it is SEEN as pride, and may well be, that holy men and women do not directly claim to be holy, but where it is taught and their lives are exemplary this can be reasonably deduced.

Of this class of person i would venture, Johnathon Edwards, Asa Meehan, Charles Finney, John Wesley and many others.

Will we take the words of men, whoose lives prove nothing or those who won thousands to Christ AND brought national (not just community) revival?

Now dont say, im saying that numbers determines the worthiness, go back over what ive said you will not find it. I am only saying that their lives prove their teaching and their teaching proved their lives.

Have i obtained this gift(state of being) NO, do i believe it ? YES with all my heart.

[JCISGD]

Not having obtained perfection here is not to be understood as an admission of sin, and it is stretching the laws of interpetation. .

Paul is saying that there is room for growth in his calling and completing what he had begun.

I have presented my veiw that holiness in us, is not being holy in the quantity (infinite holiness)of God, but is holy in the quality of Gods holiness.

being holy is living by and within the grace God provides, as opposed to living in disobedience to the light and grace provided.

FoC is wasnt using a spiritual threat to you. I was sharing the realisation as i posted that we ALL need to be careful, and i erased some of my own uncalled for remarks.

Blessings my friend.

[Paul 84]

I apologize JCISGD, but I must agree with FoC on this point, and I think he presented good points.

But I do believe in someone becoming perfect (completely sanctify or made holy), but not sinless.

I Peter 1:15 "But as He which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all matter of conversation." When I read this whole passage it seems to me that Peter is telling us to love others. For he says the Father is "without respect of persons" (v. 17), and Peter goes on to say in verse 22 "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto UNFEIGNED LOVE of the brethrens, and that ye LOVE ONE ANOTHER WITH A PURE HEART FERVENTLY." How are we purified by obedient to the Spirit in love. Will on the surface it kinda sounds like sinlessness but it speaks of love. I say this because in the same epixtle Peter says "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves for CHARITY SHALL COVER THE MULTITUDE OF SINS. (I Peter 4:8) Remember Peter is speaking to believers who are sanctified through the Spirit. (I Peter 1:1-2). If this is the case, Christ has already cover their sins so how can charity, which is the Old English word for Love cover pass sins when we are made righteous in Christ (II Corinthians 5:21)? Reading Matthew 5:48 the perfection here is love read verses 43-48.

Could not find your reference of Paul walking, "holy and blameless before God and all men, having a clear conscience in All things" I sure it in scripture, but Ephesians 1:4 is very close "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." In this verse Paul again stresses what Peter had stress love. Of course I'm not talking of worldly love. But the unconditional love Jesus Christ show us (John 15:13) when He laid down his life for my/our sins. This is a love we as humans can't produce. Paul wrote, "And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." (Romans 5:5). It is the Holy Spirit working in us that produces this.

On the Book of I John, I could be wrong but I believed a lot of damage has been done from this book because many Christians don't realize why it was written. In Christianity early beginnings the true Christians had to fight the false teaching of what now-a-day is called gnostic christian (in case you don't know this is what Dan Brown is trying to preach in the DaVinci Code). One of their teaching was one could be sinless in the spirit but sin willfully in the flesh. So the Apostle John had to combat both these errors at one time. So in I John 1 he tackle the question of sinlessness. On to chapter 2 he doesn't deny our sinful state but speaks to gnostic teaching of sinning willfully. (2:1) "... And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." I John chapter 3 on the surface seems to teach sinless perfection, but that would contradict the rest of the Bible so 3:4-9 needs to be connected to the rest of this chapter and chapter 4 or we have a big problem. If you read I John 3-4 watch how the beloved Apostle stresses LOVE after 3:9 clear to 4:21. Jesus said of the issue of LOVE for GOD and Our Neighbour, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:40).

The Bible repeatably tells us to love others is to fufill the Law (Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-9; John 13:34-35; 15:12)

Don't know if it is true but I once heard this was the Sanctification that John Wesley taught.

Thanks for your comments JCISGD we may disagree but I know you and FoC will stick to the scriptures.

'And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness." Colossians 3:14 (Proverbs 10:12)

[Smalcald]

It is a good thing to desire holiness.

The problem is one of spiritual pride, which is great danger. If we honestly believe we are truly sinless does this pose some dangers to our soul? I would say yes, consider the Jewish leaders, Paul himself prior to his belief in Christ, they all thought they were sinless and in many ways they DID observe all outward works of the Law, yet in their heart was pride and death.

Consider the other condition, striving for holiness yet knowing that we have sin and in need of repentance, is there any spiritual danger for a Christian to feel this way? The answer would be no.

So which condition to we want to be in?

[JCISGD]

I thoughly recommend doing a web search under Bible proofs of a second work of grace, and Finney`s Systematic Theology, chpts on Sanctification. Esp proofs of Pauls entire/complete sanctification.

Verses fairly explicit of Pauls holy living. 1 thess 2:10, 2 Cor 3:6:3-7, Acts 24:16,

Verses implying Pauls holy living. 2 Cor 1:12, 2 Tim 1:3, Acts 20:26, 1 Cor 11:1, Phil 3:9 + 3:17,20,

Now suppose a father says to his child, "go to grandma`s and get such and such and return, and don`t stop at the shop on the way". But the child goes to another shop past grandma`s house , does he not know what his father meant?

Smalcald, i dont know if its correct that the pharissee`s truly considerd themselves holy,as they all knew they sinned when Jesus was defending the woman about to be stoned for adultery. No doubt the high Preist had made sure he was right before God at the time, before going into the holy of holies.

How do you see it ?

FoC while you think you are proving that Paul was a sinner, you have not addressed the question of how he could hold himself up as an example of Christ and his directions followed if he was indeed such a miserable wretch,unable to control himself, doing what he didnt want to do.

If God provides the grace and we grab on, why should it be immpossible to choose to say no to sin?

Does not an elevator take us up to the next floor that we could not jump to?

I am not a scholar, i only want to point others to the water i have found.