Instantaneous sanctification-being made holy

[Smalcald]

Well what is more dangerous to your soul, to believe you are holy and without need of repentance, when you are not holy and do need repentance, or to believe you still have sin which needs repentance when you don't?

The virtue of humility is the safe and true path.

But if nothing else I have never met a human being, including what I can tell of all people on this board including myself who truly loves their neighbor as themselves all of the time. I am not even getting into never looking at anyone with any lust, or thinking about anyone with any lust, or getting angry at our family or friends at some point, just a couple of things right there, and there are many more. We are full of sin, every one of us; it is extremely dangerous to believe we are without the sinful flesh. If you go down that road how can you repent?

To me this is a tough issue. Because after saying that does that mean we abandon holiness? No as St. Paul says certainly not! We are slaves of who we obey, if we belong to sin we die, if we belong to Christ we live. We are to present our members as a pattern of righteousness, our lives must reflect Christ who is inside of us. Works however will burst forth, we will walk in the works already created for us by God.

Anyway I don

[Shiloh62]

While browsing the related threads post`s i came accross two attempts to answer what and how sanctification exists.

One by George which i read 40 % of the posts esp begining and end and one by givenname that got sidetracked i think. And neither gave what i believe was a satisfactory explanation.

I dont say this in pride, and i havnt come into the experience i am about to describe. But here is what i now understand and if any man beat me to it, i can only rejoice.

Circumcision is symbolic of Christ` work in our hearts. Now sanctification may in part be a process i dont know, but the flesh was cut off in one swipe.

The fact that two words justification and sanctification is enough to prove sanctification does not occur at salvation, although positionally this may be so. Every thing was finished on the cross positionally.

To be clear, justification is a gift and work of God recieved by faith. But what i hope to show here is that sanctification is also a gift and a work of God, yet a second work and not to do with salvation but purification.

When we get saved we experience a rush or measure of Gods Spirit. This greatly subdues sin in our life and it is marvelous how that first year is so much like a honeymoon. But if your anything like me, gradually some sins that you thought were gone, began to rise up. Through prayer, fellowship and the word we find a measure of sucess in subduing and even overcoming some sins, depending on the degree of obedience to these disciplines.

This is what disturbs many, that it seems impossible to rid all sin, and yet we know instinctively that surely theres more to it than this for a child of God.

So we either try harder or we begin to hide behind fig leaves. Both methods will not work, and God tries to call us out of them.

In my own case i became very discouraged and began to think the gospel to be the "bad news". I wanted to be victorious and see Gods power set people free, but my own life seem to sink into the quicksand of sin. The more i struggled the more i sank.

It was at a very low point that i cried out to the Lord, and He showed me that although i was saved i needed to hold still while he performed heart surgery on me. We all need and can get a new heart subsequent to salvation. The old heart/man is wicked beyond repair and putting a patch on it will not do.

How? only God knows, when? when we believe Him and ask Him to do it, leaving it in His hands, in His time and His way. This is what it means to be Holy as God is Holy. What He commands, He also gives grace to do but in this case He is the one that does it. This is sanctification proper.

It is Christ living in us with a new heart that He is well pleased to dwell with. So it is no longer i that lives but Christ in me the hope of glory. This is not a theological theory or a positional placing that Paul enthusiastically proclaims, its a reality for him and can be for us too.

Well thats my take on it, i have much more i could say, but will leave it for readers to decide if it reasonates. I do not intend to debate this so take it or leave it.

I may post more later depending on the response, but not in direct reply necessarily.

Amen JCISGD, to God be the glory! or those of us that are truly reborn, there is no doubt that it is Christ living in us.

[KC02]

sapphire2009:

From a Wesleyan to a Pentecostal I have always heard santification taught this way. I never questioned it until I started reading the Bible for myself (around 17ish). I couldn't find that doctrine, the way you put it, in Scripture.

It's simply not there exactly like that. I am not diminishing sanctification, but it is clearly a process, not instantaneous. I am not even saying that perfection isn't possible.

For example, Noah was "perfect" (Gen 6:9), but wasn't always so. My Bible doesn't say that Noah lost his sanctification. That is nonsense.

I'm not sure it is wise to advise others to seek something that isn't scriptural (instantaneous sanctification).

IF YOU GUYS HAVE SCRIPTURE TO BACK THIS UP, I am all ears. You teach it like the "rapture" theory... grab unrelated verses and string them together with religious convictions. It don't mean nothin' unless you can back it up by the Bible.

-------------------

From personal experience, the day after I was saved, I thought I was worse off than before. That is a little hyperbole, but I was discouraged. I was cussing every breath because I had did it all my life. My thoughts were not pure. Every pretty girl that walked by... well you get the picture.

I prayed for sanctification many times and the Lord has always helped me overcome sin and my problems. But it has been much more gradual than I would like.

Perfection does seem like a high ideal that we reach for all our lives. I just don't see anything instant about it. Why didn't Paul teach the church about this? If he did, we have no record of instantanious sanctification. On one level, and one you pointed out, I think God does look at us and see the blood of Christ and the work on the cross. That is where our holiness and perfection comes from.

To end my personal story, I can only say I am getting better and better. I am maturing in Christ, and maturing is what perfection is all about, not a simple prayer.

Prove it wrong if you can and if you must

BTW, I did supply additional references in my older post.

When Abraham was ninety years old and nine , God said to him, walk thou before me and be thou perfect.

Jesus said, be ye perfect.

John said I write unto you that ye sin not....... but IF any man sin, we have an an advocate...... why do so many quote 1John 1:8 and wink at 1John 3:8, and particularly verse 9 :Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The disciples(apostles) were indignant gainst there colleagues because of a request to sit on Jesus' side in His kingdom and also tried to call down fire on the Samaritans........ evidence of an unholy temper.

Now, what is sanctification......

It is the transformation that took place in Abraham after Genesis 17

It is the change that took place in the apostles after the prayer of Jesus in John 17

It is the circumcision of the heart

I would rather thirst after this holy experience rather than argue against it......

To deny the possibility of entire sanctification is to diminish the efficacy of the blood of the lamb.

The experience can be obtained and can be lost, so the fact that someone said he is sanctified and you catch him again in sin, does not make this experience less real..... that individual has lost the experience he once enjoyed.

It is better experienced than explained theologically

Pray for it, even though your brain does not fully comprehend it, your heart can definitely enjoy it!!

Shalom!

While browsing the related threads post`s i came accross two attempts to answer what and how sanctification exists.

One by George which i read 40 % of the posts esp begining and end and one by givenname that got sidetracked i think. And neither gave what i believe was a satisfactory explanation.

I dont say this in pride, and i havnt come into the experience i am about to describe. But here is what i now understand and if any man beat me to it, i can only rejoice.

Circumcision is symbolic of Christ` work in our hearts. Now sanctification may in part be a process i dont know, but the flesh was cut off in one swipe.

The fact that two words justification and sanctification is enough to prove sanctification does not occur at salvation, although positionally this may be so. Every thing was finished on the cross positionally.

To be clear, justification is a gift and work of God recieved by faith. But what i hope to show here is that sanctification is also a gift and a work of God, yet a second work and not to do with salvation but purification.

When we get saved we experience a rush or measure of Gods Spirit. This greatly subdues sin in our life and it is marvelous how that first year is so much like a honeymoon. But if your anything like me, gradually some sins that you thought were gone, began to rise up. Through prayer, fellowship and the word we find a measure of sucess in subduing and even overcoming some sins, depending on the degree of obedience to these disciplines.

This is what disturbs many, that it seems impossible to rid all sin, and yet we know instinctively that surely theres more to it than this for a child of God.

So we either try harder or we begin to hide behind fig leaves. Both methods will not work, and God tries to call us out of them.

In my own case i became very discouraged and began to think the gospel to be the "bad news". I wanted to be victorious and see Gods power set people free, but my own life seem to sink into the quicksand of sin. The more i struggled the more i sank.

It was at a very low point that i cried out to the Lord, and He showed me that although i was saved i needed to hold still while he performed heart surgery on me. We all need and can get a new heart subsequent to salvation. The old heart/man is wicked beyond repair and putting a patch on it will not do.

How? only God knows, when? when we believe Him and ask Him to do it, leaving it in His hands, in His time and His way. This is what it means to be Holy as God is Holy. What He commands, He also gives grace to do but in this case He is the one that does it. This is sanctification proper.

It is Christ living in us with a new heart that He is well pleased to dwell with. So it is no longer i that lives but Christ in me the hope of glory. This is not a theological theory or a positional placing that Paul enthusiastically proclaims, its a reality for him and can be for us too.

Well thats my take on it, i have much more i could say, but will leave it for readers to decide if it reasonates. I do not intend to debate this so take it or leave it.

I may post more later depending on the response, but not in direct reply necessarily.

Edited April 9, 2009 by KC02

[KC02]

In general, what is wrong with the doctrine of instantaneous sanctification?

It's not Biblical!

(1John 1:8 [KJV])

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The Pentecostals (mostly) who claim to be "sanctified" believe they are above sin.

This rotten attitude is exactly the one the Pharisees had. For example, they wouldn't go into a tax collectors house, but Jesus called on one to be His disciple. These religious people were too good to do God's work and endlessly accused Jesus.

I don't like the attitude the holiness doctrine breeds.

How about this verse:

(Jas 5:16 [KJV])

Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Can one claim this instantaneous doctrine and still confess faults to others that believe the same thing? No Way Jose! The others will think you have lost your sanctification and maybe your salvation too.

If you believe this doctrine, you only deceive yourselves. Not me. And not God.

And I haven't even gotten to the part about how this doctrine replaces God's grace. Why do you need God's grace if you are perfect?

--------------------------

I just read on a Pentecostal website about the church having a "HOLINESS MEETING."

I guess everyone will be there. Except Jesus and the sinners He came to save. What sinner would want to go there? Do we preach only to the choir?

--------------------

Jesus didn't come to call the sanctified, but sinners to repentance (Mat 9:13, Keith Tysinger version).

--------------------

After careful consideration of the gospels, I believe Jesus had rather spend time with the unsanctified rather than the "sanctified." At least that seems to be one charge the Religious Order might have gotten right.

---------------------

If you are red-faced (I don't think sanctified folk get red-faced), I want to hear from you. Prove me wrong. Prove my doctrine wrong. Don't proof-text cause we can prove anything like that. We can also prove anything by "types and shadows" of the OT. Important doctrines such as these ought to be at least fairly plain in Scripture.

God Bless and enlighten our minds is my prayer!

Edited April 9, 2009 by KC02

[JCISGD]

Hi K + S the problem here i believe is that you are saying because you have not experienced it, then it is not so. And that because some claim it falsely while it is obvious they have not, that this also is proof it does not exist.

Its not enough to say "its not in the bible" as there are some very good evidences that it is biblical, but you are interpereting it differently.

What i am saying is that men greatly used of God and of highest moral character not only say that it is, but also that this was the reason for the revivals they saw and lived through.

S it cannot be pride to assert something that is true. I think your mistaking humility as self abasement, but humility is not claiming more or less than we are.

If you will read Finney`s theology i doubt that you will still believe as you do, as he solidly proves it.

Try a web search of " Bible proofs of a second work of grace" by D.S Warner.

Edited April 9, 2009 by JCISGD

[KC02]

I love ya JCISGD! It's not such a biggee that we don't see eye-to-eye concerning sanctification. I'm not upset at all. I'm mostly upset about the attitude it breeds.

I don't believe in instantaneous sanctification because I can't find it in the Bible.

Jesus used men who were of the lowest social-economic group. They were far from perfect; they were bottom of the barrel people. Like you and I perhaps. Like me definitely.

We are saved because of God's grace, not because of our holiness or perfection.

Frankly, I don't care a thing about Finney. Just show me where Paul taught this doctrine and I will accept it.

Remember Saul was king and God repented that He has made Saul king.

Hi K + S the problem here i believe is that you are saying because you have not experienced it, then it is not so. And that because some claim it falsely while it is obvious they have not, that this also is proof it does not exist.

Its not enough to say "its not in the bible" as there are some very good evidences that it is biblical, but you are interpereting it differently.

What i am saying is that men greatly used of God and of highest moral character not only say that it is, but also that this was the reason for the revivals they saw and lived through.

S it cannot be pride to assert something that is true. I think your mistaking humility as self abasement, but humility is not claiming more or less than we are.

If you will read Finney`s theology i doubt that you will still believe as you do, as he solidly proves it.

Try a web search of " Bible proofs of a second work of grace" by D.S Warner.

[Smalcald]

A couple of points, you don't "experience" being sinless you LIVE it. I am relatively shocked that people would believe that they are without sin. Now if you are saying that we are totally forgiven and perfect in the grace of Christ, yes! I think we are closer to Christ during different times in our lives no doubt about that, but sanctification is not an emotion. We must look analytically at our lives and compare this to what we are living. The idea that anyone could look at their life and really find no sin at all none whatsoever is not biblical.

But just from the posts I have seen on this board, I have seen sin in some of these posts including mine (anger sometimes), so we have evidence right here that no one posting on this topic is utterly sinless.

Now maybe I am not understanding what is meant by sanctification?

[OneLight]

sanctification Strong's G38

hagiasmos

1) consecration, purification

2) the effect of consecration

a) sanctification of heart and life

In The Complete Word Study Dictionary, I read; Sanctification, translated "Holiness". Separation unto God. The result state, the behavior befitting those so separated.

On the web I read:

1. The act of sanctifying or making holy; the state of being sanctified or made holy; esp. (Theol.), the act of God's grace by which the affections of men are purified, or alienated from sin and the world, and exalted to a supreme love to God; also, the state of being thus purified or sanctified.
   
2. The act of consecrating, or of setting apart for a sacred purpose; consecration.
   

Sanctification

involves more than a mere moral reformation of character, brought about by the power of the truth: it is the work of the Holy Spirit bringing the whole nature more and more under the influences of the new gracious principles implanted in the soul in regeneration. In other words, sanctification is the carrying on to perfection the work begun in regeneration, and it extends to the whole man (Rom. 6:13; 2 Cor. 4:6; Col. 3:10; 1 John 4:7; 1 Cor. 6:19). It is the special office of the Holy Spirit in the plan of redemption to carry on this work (1 Cor. 6:11; 2 Thess. 2:13). Faith is instrumental in securing sanctification, inasmuch as it (1) secures union to Christ (Gal. 2:20), and (2) brings the believer into living contact with the truth, whereby he is led to yield obedience "to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come." Perfect sanctification is not attainable in this life (1 Kings 8:46; Prov. 20:9; Eccl. 7:20; James 3:2; 1 John 1:8). See Paul's account of himself in Rom. 7:14-25; Phil. 3:12-14; and 1 Tim. 1:15; also the confessions of David (Ps. 19:12, 13; 51), of Moses (90:8), of Job (42:5, 6), and of Daniel (9:3-20). "The more holy a man is, the more humble, self-renouncing, self-abhorring, and the more sensitive to every sin he becomes, and the more closely he clings to Christ. The moral imperfections which cling to him he feels to be sins, which he laments and strives to overcome. Believers find that their life is a constant warfare, and they need to take the kingdom of heaven by storm, and watch while they pray. They are always subject to the constant chastisement of their Father's loving hand, which can only be designed to correct their imperfections and to confirm their graces. And it has been notoriously the fact that the best Christians have been those who have been the least prone to claim the attainment of perfection for themselves.", Hodge's Outlines.

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

[JCISGD]

I love ya JCISGD! It's not such a biggee that we don't see eye-to-eye concerning sanctification. I'm not upset at all. I'm mostly upset about the attitude it breeds.

I don't believe in instantaneous sanctification because I can't find it in the Bible.

Jesus used men who were of the lowest social-economic group. They were far from perfect; they were bottom of the barrel people. Like you and I perhaps. Like me definitely.

We are saved because of God's grace, not because of our holiness or perfection.

Frankly, I don't care a thing about Finney. Just show me where Paul taught this doctrine and I will accept it.

Remember Saul was king and God repented that He has made Saul king.

Hi K + S the problem here i believe is that you are saying because you have not experienced it, then it is not so. And that because some claim it falsely while it is obvious they have not, that this also is proof it does not exist.

Its not enough to say "its not in the bible" as there are some very good evidences that it is biblical, but you are interpereting it differently.

What i am saying is that men greatly used of God and of highest moral character not only say that it is, but also that this was the reason for the revivals they saw and lived through.

S it cannot be pride to assert something that is true. I think your mistaking humility as self abasement, but humility is not claiming more or less than we are.

If you will read Finney`s theology i doubt that you will still believe as you do, as he solidly proves it.

Try a web search of " Bible proofs of a second work of grace" by D.S Warner.

Thanks KC love ya too.

Onelight has provided some helpful definitions of sanctification, but im not sure if she was standing for progresssive or instantaneous.

I think Hodges was opposed to Finney`s theology on it. I only point to Finney and others as i dont have the academic ability to do the subject justice.

I still ask Christians why they want to reinvent the wheel all the time. Those who are are closest contempories, fruitful and without fault in the ministry and

private lives are surely more trust worthy in their theology than those who are not, including myself.

God used Finney to bring unparralled revival through him and those praying for this, souls were won to Christ of every class of society and the fall away rate was also not like that of many other great preachers. Finney was led by the H/S to preach in a town straight after he just been married, revival soon broke out and after 3 mths he had to have someone go fetch his new bride as God had him otherwise committed to the work of salvation. Untill his death at 84 Finney never fell into immorality or greed and preached untill his dying days.

Give glory where glory is due.

I will gather my proofs and post them soon, Blessings Arthur.

[KC02]

In my spare time I like to research revivals and their impuitus . I will have to check Finney out. Nobody has ever had perfect doctrine, except Christ, because nobody knows everything.

The first big controversy in the Pentecostal tent was about santification. Those sanctified people were really showing their humanity about a very small difference of opinion :emot-hug:

It's especially funny to me because I think both camps were wrong!

For what it's worth, the (Neo)Pentecostal revival started on Azusa Street, Los Angeles in 1906 is still going very strong across the whole world. As far as I know it is still the fastest growing segment of the church. God brought revival in spite of their imperfect doctrines and understanding. If it were not for those people on Azusa St that loved God, I might not know Jesus today. So I try not to give the Pentecostals a hard time haha.

Edited April 10, 2009 by KC02