What do you think fo these passages?

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Wordsower,

I had to copy this and respond offline...

I have the same problem with these long posts. But if you notice I can still "mark up" my posts. All you have to do for a "quote" is type in "left bracket, QUOTE, right bracket" at the beginning of your quote, then at the end place a "left bracket, forward slash, QUOTE, right bracket". For bolding just put a "B" in the center instead of QUOTE.

I'm learning a lot and one thing that came to me today about the 2 witnesses, you said they have to be just the Spirit of Elijah and Moses (or whoever you think they are)

No, I only mentioned the "spirit of Elijah" upon the two witnesses. If you were to closely examine what is said about Elijah and compare his "spirit" with that of the two witnesses, you would conclude that they have the same "type" of spirit. By thinking that these two men are Moses and Elijah, you are saying you believe in "reincarnation", which is clearly in error.

because it is appointed a man once to die,  well, Lazarus must have died twice and all of the others Jesus raised from the dead and the ones that came out of their graves when He died.  Not saying it HAS to be Moses and Elijah, we can't know for sure, but it IS possible.

Only if you "ADD to the scriptures". There is no mention of Lazarus or the others dying again. However, I have recently found out that there is some extra-biblical sources that suggest Lazarus' grave was found along with Mary's & Martha's. But we have no Biblical support for this.

No, I think the great tribulation is for anyone who does not have Jesus, aethiest, hindu, buddist, whoever....that's why I said unless the Jews have Christ, He is the Door, 'member?  But I don't think any of these other groups will be jealous because they wont know where we went, but the Jews will know.

Now, how can the Jews "know" unless they "know" Jesus and the NT, and are "born again and filled with the Holy Spirit"? In which case Jesus would NOT leave them behind. Do you realize that the promises of the Bible apply to all Christians at ALL times? It is the Holy Spirit that gives us understanding of the WHOLE Bible. The "world" cannot know Christ until they are first born again in the SPIRIT! God is SPIRIT, and he who worships Him MUST worship in SPIRIT and in truth.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Dad "Rom 11:30-31 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy." (end quote)

I hear what you are saying, I just don't interpret the verses the same.... So through the same mercy that we have obtained, the death of Jesus and His blood that was put on the mercy seat,  they will also be saved.

So you added to the scriptures about Lazarus and the others that arose from the grave, and now you are TAKING AWAY from the Word of God by eliminating the words "THROUGH YOUR MERCY" in your interpretation. Do you realize what the PENALTY is for adding or taking away from the Word of God?

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Please reconsider YOUR interpretation.

dad:  "1 Pet 2:9-10 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. "end quote

I said 2 Peter 2:9  which is "then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.

Yes, but you didn't read it "in context". Vs. 10 clearly relates to Romans 11:30-31. It was through the early Jewish fathers, through the Jewish prophets and our Jewish Messiah, and our Jewish Apostles by which you received mercy, and it will be through the Gentiles that the gospel is spread and in the end days when God removes the blanket of blindness from the Jews, it will be through the Gentiles that the JEWS RECEIVE MERCY.

Dad: "Mal 3:16-18 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Do you see the connection between the above and:

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

What's your point?"

You referred to the Mal. vs. Do you not see it was addressing the JEWS AND all that would believe on His Name? Jesus came to save the lost sheep of Israel. Do you think that at His second advent He is going to leave them behind again? The first time He did was for our benefit. So why would He leave them behind AGAIN?

dad: "WHO WERE YOU PRAYING TO ALL THAT TIME? AS YOU CAN SEE FROM THE ABOVE VERSE THE GATHERING OF THE SAINTS TO THE LORD IS AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION!!!"end quote

See, that is RUDE!  As you can see from Jude 14 He is returning with His saints--after the tribulation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is your Jude vs:

Jude 1:14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Now compare it with:

2 Thess 1:4-10 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Do you see the connection?

dad: "As for the "imminent rapture", what do you think this verse means:

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."end quote

What's your point?  Are you saying that this is imminent?  Well, the fact that a messenger will be sent first to prepare the way (which appears to be Moses-who they delight in, the messenger of the covenant) doesn't make it too imminent hu?  Imminency means without warning, no sign, anyday now, not after the peace treaty,anti-christ, plagues, the Mark-those are all signs and the day of His return is counted down to the day.

Both the NT and OT tell us:

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Matthew 28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

John 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

The word "suddenly" in the Hebrew is:

06597 pith'owm {pith-ome'} or pith'om {pith-ome'}

from 06621; TWOT - 1859a

AV - suddenly 22, sudden 2, straightway 1; 25

adv

1) suddenly, surprisingly

We know that there was a prophecy that told of a "star in the east" which foretold the Lord's FIRST advent. We know that Mary and Joseph were told of the Lord's FIRST advent, perhaps as well as Elizabeth. We know that a priest in the Temple KNEW of the Lord's FIRST advent. We are told in Daniel 9 about WHEN the Messiah would come. God hasn't changed one bit. He FIRST tells His servants before He does something. He has given us NUMEROUS NT prophecies telling us approximately the time of the Lord's SECOND advent. What do you think this means:

2 Thess 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I suppose YOUR interpretation is different from mine as well. <sigh>

Do you read anything I post?  I have said over and over that if I have misunderstood and I am still here when the Anti-Christ is revealed then I still put my complete trust in Christ and leave it up to Him.  There is no way I'm going to prolong my life a few short weeks or years by taking the mark and miss out on eternity with Jesus, or burn in hell forever.  My faith is NOT in the rapture, it is in Jesus and He is truly sovereign and whatever happens to me happens-Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him, OK???

Yes, I have "heard" you say this on many occasions, but then you believe that those who believe in a post-trib rapture are fearful and are fear mongers perpetuating their fear among believers. You certainly do not want to be included in THAT KIND of group. Why is that? My hope is fully in Christ, NOT in THIS life, or in this world, or that I would be taken out of this world when the tribulation gets to be too much. When temptations or tribulations come I look to the Lord for His deliverance and whether I live or die, I do so for the glory of Christ. I have not been promised that I would escape this life alive, and in fact only very few will, they are the ones who "are alive and remain" (1 Thes 4:15 & 17). Please read these scriptures.

dad: "I cannot fault your interpretation of the prodigal son, I believe you see the correct connections between the scriptures - as far as what you said." end quote

HU?? You better read it again because I'm saying the young son represents the Gentiles and goes to the feast--ya know? The Marriage Supper of the Lamb that takes place when we are raptured?  The older son, though he is an heir, cannot enter even though His father pleads with him to because he doesn't have the robe which represents Jesus.(there's that door again)

There you go again ADDING to what was said. It does not say CANNOT ENTER. Secondly if taken metaphorically, as you have (& is reasonable, I might add) it is speaking of the Lord's FIRST advent. THEN you don't read the ENTIRE context which includes:

Luke 15:31-32 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Now compare this verse with:

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Do you realize that the Holy Spirit came after Jesus ascended?  What do you think saved all of those in the Old Testament?  Daved, Moses, Noah....all saved, no Holy Spirit dwelling in them, hmmmm.

SO? Do you realize:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Don't you realize that all the OT saints looked FORWARD to the cross, even as we look BACKWARD to the cross? What do you think this verse means:

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Are you familiar with "Abraham's bosom"?

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

I am not sure myself how this all fits together, (but I believe it has to do with temporal and eternal time) but the Lord first had to ascend where He prepared a place for EVERYONE including the OT saints. But to the point, Jesus went and preached to the OT saints in "prison" and revealed that He was the Messiah that was to come (the gospel). This is basic to understanding the OT. Why aren't you aware of it? It was when Jesus preached to those souls that the Holy Spirit opened their eyes to see and gave them ears to hear.

dad: I believe that once you get this rapture thing straightened out in your own mind, you will do well in contributing to the edification of the body of Christ"

Thank you, I am not trying to follow any heretics, I don't truly see how this affects my salvation in anyway or yours.  We will find that we had a lot wrong when we get to heaven, no doubt.  As long as my faith is in Christ, come what may, I will be just fine.  I am totally prepared to give my life for Jesus if He requires it.  I believe even with my present understandings, I have much to contribute and pray to grow in knowledge everyday.  I realize that God can not reveal anything to a closed mind and I try to consciously remain open to His instruction and guidance.  If anything else is revealed to me I will let you know.  I have been proven wrong many times and if you've read my testimony you will see that.  My objective isn't to be right, I want to learn and grow in truth only.

Yes, I realize you are not TRYING to follow any heretics, but you ARE adhering to some of their misguided doctrines, such as the "doctrine of imminency", "the understanding of the two witnesses", "tribulation vs. wrath", "the 7 years of tribulation, when Rev. only says 3 1/2", and there are some others. You need to get "out of the box", and get back to ONLY the Bible and quit ADDING to or TAKING AWAY from the Word of God.

You appear to be pretty reasonable otherwise and I would love to discuss your insights further, if only you came to the CORRECT conclusions, which are NOT "MY" conclusions, but is what the scriptures reveal.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

P.S. I see that Timothy beat me to the punch on QUOTES.

[wordsower]

Dad,

You say that I add to scripture because I assume that Lazarus died.  Well, you assume that he still lives?  Do you have scripture for that?  Didn't think so, so are you adding to scripture? No, you just interpret it that way.  Adding to scripture would be to say some blasphemous thing like Jesus' mother was always a virgin when the scripture plainly says she had other sons, but we can debate the Catholics on another thread.

You say I subtract from the scripture because I believe the mercy that was extended to me was the blood of Jesus, well I understand that from the New Covenant Sacrifice explained in Hebrew 9.  Nothing but the blood of Jesus can save me or the Jews.  Just because we interpret that differently doesn't mean I subtracted from scripture.  Please be careful when speaking such curses on people!

About the lost son:

There you go again ADDING to what was said. It does not say CANNOT ENTER. Secondly if taken metaphorically, as you have (& is reasonable, I might add) it is speaking of the Lord's FIRST advent. THEN you don't read the ENTIRE context which includes:

Luke 15:31-32 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Now compare this verse with:

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

31& 32 are especially important to my interpretation because since the Jews were chosen and given the law they are first heirs and have always been God's chosen, like the older son says in 29 "Lo this many years I have been serving You; I never transgressed your commandment at any time"  That's Israel, keeping the commandments and missing the Saviour!!

He doesn't think it's fair that he has been keeping the commandments and this "law breaker Gentile gets a feast!  His father pleads for him to come in but he is jealous and doesn't.  

Romans 11:28 simply says that the Jews were enemies because they persecuted the Christians but they are still the election of God, don't know what that has to do with my point?

The fact that the OT believers looked forward to the cross still doesn't change the fact that they did not have the Holy Spirit.  He did not come until after Jesus ascended to heaven.  

I'll be back when I get my three year old interested in something besides sitting on my head while I type!

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Wordsower,

You say that I add to scripture because I assume that Lazarus died.  Well, you assume that he still lives?  Do you have scripture for that?  Didn't think so, so are you adding to scripture? No, you just interpret it that way.  Adding to scripture would be to say some blasphemous thing like Jesus' mother was always a virgin when the scripture plainly says she had other sons, but we can debate the Catholics on another thread.

You are in error here. We live by EVERY Word that proceeds from the mouth of God. When we insist on ADDING our own interpretation to the scriptures, THAT is error. If I make a conjecture of an event in scripture of which it is not clear, I plainly state as much, even as I mentioned Lazarus' grave. As you have noted, the Catholics have been adding their "interpretation" to the scriptures for many years. It only gets worse. I would plead with you to not go beyond what the scriptures plainly state.

You say I subtract from the scripture because I believe the mercy that was extended to me was the blood of Jesus, well I understand that from the New Covenant Sacrifice explained in Hebrew 9.  Nothing but the blood of Jesus can save me or the Jews.  Just because we interpret that differently doesn't mean I subtracted from scripture.  Please be careful when speaking such curses on people!

You still haven't addressed what "YOUR MERCY" means in Romans 11:30-31. It was by the mercy of others that the Gospel came to you and it is now up to you and me to "show mercy" to the Jews by taking the Gospel to them. I have not spoken any curses ON anyone. But I do clearly warn them that if they persist in their ways that the SCRIPTURES tell of DIRE consequences. Do you or do you not let people know that the alternative to Jesus is hell? When you do ARE YOU CURSING THEM?

About the lost son:Quote  

There you go again ADDING to what was said. It does not say CANNOT ENTER. Secondly if taken metaphorically, as you have (& is reasonable, I might add) it is speaking of the Lord's FIRST advent. THEN you don't read the ENTIRE context which includes:

Luke 15:31-32 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

31& 32 are especially important to my interpretation because since the Jews were chosen and given the law they are first heirs and have always been God's chosen, like the older son says in 29 "Lo this many years I have been serving You; I never transgressed your commandment at any time"  That's Israel, keeping the commandments and missing the Saviour!!

He doesn't think it's fair that he has been keeping the commandments and this "law breaker Gentile gets a feast!  His father pleads for him to come in but he is jealous and doesn't.

See, to maintain your theology, you are ADDING to the scriptures again. After the prodigal son's father spoke to him in those last verses, it is left to conjecture whether the eldest son came to the feast. But since his father made such an impassioned plea, I believe that the elder son did in fact attend the feast. AND to support that conclusion, moving along with the same line of interpretation we find that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved in Romans 11 which means that indeed the elder son joined the younger brother at the feast.

The fact that the OT believers looked forward to the cross still doesn't change the fact that they did not have the Holy Spirit.  He did not come until after Jesus ascended to heaven.

You are missing the entire point! You say that the Holy Spirit is removed at your pre-trib rapture. Yet the Holy Spirit was indeed prevelant in the OT, even though He was only UPON the OT saints, and NOT IN THEM. It took HIS council to reveal the Word of God to them, just as it takes HIS council to reveal the Word of God to us AND to ALL ISRAEL when they get saved. But with the NT came the Gospel and the revelation of Jesus Christ and that takes a MESSENGER, i.e. YOU AND ME to deliver that Gospel, even as it says in Romans 10.

Listen Wordsower, if you insist on ADDING TO OR TAKING AWAY from the scriptures, I really don't want to be involved in this dialogue. Interpretation is NOT up to you or me ultimately, but it is the Holy Spirit that gives the interpretation. We need to develop a hermeneutic whereby we can eliminate our OWN interpretation and understand the scriptures AS THEY ARE WRITTEN. You have been given much insight, but as I say, you continue to come to wrong conclusions, and your example of the "elder son" is just such an example.

Again I caution you to remember NOT TO ADD OR TAKE AWAY. This is what the Word says, NOT Ernie.

Your Servant in Christ,

Dad Ernie

[wordsower]

You still haven't addressed what "YOUR MERCY" means in Romans 11:30-31. It was by the mercy of others that the Gospel came to you and it is now up to you and me to "show mercy" to the Jews by taking the Gospel to them. I have not spoken any curses ON anyone. But I do clearly warn them that if they persist in their ways that the SCRIPTURES tell of DIRE consequences. Do you or do you not let people know that the alternative to Jesus is hell? When you do ARE YOU CURSING THEM?

It was NOT by the mercy of others, it was by the mercy of God.   Romans 11:32:  For God has committed them all to disobedience, the He might have mercy on all.

That is as clear as clear can be.  I am about tired of you accusing me of adding to scipture when I am simply reading what it says.

You say you think the older son went into the feast....Where do you see that?  It is not there, it says, "But he was angry and would not go in." Luke 15:28 Do you see who is adding to scripture here?  

If you can't read what's there I'm done here.  

Blessings and prayers,