the future of the earth

[zaitzeff]

--- In smilingg@yahoogroups.com, "ahi_tuna_extra_rare" <mattanders@y...> wrote:

> Opinions?

Yes, the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a fantasy created by people who are careless in Bible study.

The future of the earth is that the earth's conditions, or society's conditions, will gradually get better and better over time.

In the first place, all the governments that persecute Christians are cursed and under a curse. They will be overthrown by God. They will be dissolved or overthrown or will repent of their persecution of the Christians, just as happened with the Roman Empire, and with the USSR.

Some countries [those which are persecuting countries] will change peacefully and some will change as a result of civil war and some will change as a result of external war.

Right now, there are just over 40 countries listed by VOM as severely persecuting the Christians. Over the next 50 years or the next 100 years, that number will gradually go down, and will continue to go down until it is zero.

The progress of world society to paradise is not straight up.

Sometimes there are what seem to be setbacks. Sometimes there are what seem to be plateaus. From week to week, from year to year, there may seem at times to be "no growth." Sometimes there are wars that seem pointless and sometimes there are wars that obviously directly advance the cause of freedom.

The progress of world society to paradise is like the progress of the stock market. Yes, there are "corrections," but the long-term trend is up. Yes, there are bear markets, but the long-term trend is up.

Sometimes, historians who study Rome before and after 313 say that the Christians revolutionized Rome. However, it was a revolution that took place over more than 300 years! In the same way, Christians will revolutionize the world!

All around the world, there will be governments which are more or less democratic, which respect freedom of religion, of speech, of the press, of assembly and the right to petition the government. Every government that is opposed to these things will either fall or repent and adopt them.

At the same time, more and more people on earth will become

Christian. The % which is Christian is going to go up, and up. For the last 100 years, the % marked as Christian has been plateaued at 33%, but that % is poised to be going up for the next 50 or 100 years or so before the next plateau.

And, of the % which is called Christian, more and more will be

committed believers. Fewer and fewer will be Orthodox, Roman Catholic or the mainstream liberal church of the USA. Evangelicals are growing at 5% a year and Pentecostals are growing at 8% a year.

The JWs and the SDA and the LDS will grow and grow for a time, as they have been, and then their numbers will plateau and then they will decline. Probably other new semi-Christian churches will arise which will grow for a while and then plateau and then decline.

As the Christians grow in numbers and in % and in maturity, their influence on society and politics shall increase. The world shall become more and more free. We are likely to see this happen shortly in Iraq. I expect a little war to remove Saddam, followed by American reconstruction of Iraqi society. In the process, the Iraq government will come to look more like the US government in its structure--with a constitution and an independent judiciary and separation of powers,

etc.

Osama bin Laden has actually helped us Christianize the world.  He provoked the USA into overthrowing the Taliban.  The new Afghani government is not perfect, and still says it believes in Sharia law, but many Christians and Christian aid organizations have returned or are returning since the fall of the Taliban.  The Taliban's fall has unleashed a pent-up desire in Afghanistan and Kabul for things from the West.  So, Afghanistan has taken a baby step towards greater religious freedom.  They'll plateau and make take a step back at some point.  Their progress looks like the progress of the church under the USSR.  There were waves of persecution and there were lulls and times of greater freedom.

Among the Christians, Christianity itself--as it is understood by believers--will evolve in such a way that truths formerly rejected by many believers are adopted and considered normal. There was a revolution in the understanding of Christianity at the time of Luther. Likewise, committed Christianity--as it is understood by believers--will become more and more reconciled to the knowledge of science, and also to our responsibility to take care of the earth's

environment.

It will be fun to watch, but it may take another 100 years or 200 years or more for paradise to arrive, in which all on earth are Christian and walking with God, and all who are Christian have forsaken attempts to impose false elements of "the faith" on others by pseudo-scholarship. After a while, the governments shall no longer exist, at least as we understand them. All things will be done by the people acting collectively, and unanimously. So, the people and the government shall be the same and no one shall speak of "the government" because all of them together are the government.

[Guest leejosepho]

With a truth or two slipping in: Rubbish! (edited)

[whatsitmean]

With a truth or two slipping in: Rubbush!

That's an understatement but going the right way.

[zaitzeff]

Greetings Lee Joseph

I could be wrong, but I think the word is

rubbish, not rubbush.

If you wish, pray and ask God what is the truth on the matter, and, if you wish, read books in the library,

and you may learn.

[traveller]

Read books in the library? How about reading the Word of God? He has already told us what is going to happen. He does not lie. Have you read His Word?

[zaitzeff]

Well, to the naysayers,

I have a few questions.

Are you denying that evangelical Christians are currently growing at 5% a year and Pentecostals at 8% a year?

You do realize that this growth rate is faster than the growth rate of world population or the Muslim population growth rate?

You do realize that the Pentecostal growth rate is faster than the growth rate of the JWs or the LDS or any apparent competitors?

Are you saying that the % of the world population which Christian is going to enter a period of decline over the next 10 or 20 years?

Are you saying that the number of countries which severely persecutes Christians, as measured by the list of Voice of the Martyrs, is going to increase to more than 50 or more and continue increasing?

Are you saying that the governments of the earth are going to let their people have less and less freedom, that there will be more kings and less constitutions?

Are you saying that the North Koreans and the Red Chinese governments will prosper and increase in dominion?

Tell me, just what are you saying?

[zaitzeff]

Re God telling us what is going to happen

Yes, I have read the Bible many times.

God says,

"I will bless those who bless you [Abraham],

and I will curse those who curse you [Abraham]."

Gen 12:3

Today, Christians are the seed of Abraham and the inheritors of that promise.  Those who curse Christians are curse; those who bless Christians are blessed.

God also says that those who did what he said would be the head and not the tail, and He would bless them.  Those who did not would be cursed.

You have seen it happen already in the history of the Roman Empire.  Those who cursed God and God's people were cursed and finally destroyed.  Those who blessed God and God's people were blessed and prospered.  If you wish, read about the lives of Diocletian and Galerius and Valerian and Constantine.  Read about the pagan rebellion around 380 and how God send a wind to scatter the evil army.  Read how Constantine destroyed many armies many times his size, and how, in one of the last battles, a great storm arose and sank the ships of Licinius.  Read about the horrible and miserable deaths of those who led the persecutions of the Christians:

suicide, torture, assasination, incurable and undiagnosable disease, etc.

God blessed the Protestants v. the Roman Catholics.  God blessed the English in 1588.  God blessed the Americans in 1776 and 1787 and God blessed the Union in 1863.  God blessed the English in 1942 & 1943 and God blessed the Allies in 1944.

God has blessed America because America has religious freedom and freedom is a blessing to the Christians.

God blessed the West by letting Andropov [ruler of the USSR] die and after him Gorbachev came in with Glasnost, and then the collapse of the USSR.

The West isn't perfect, but it generally does bless God's people, while the East--China, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc--does not.  So, God will curse and has cursed the East while God is blessing the West and God is making the West the head and the East the tail.

Right now, North Korea can barely feed its people and people are dying to get out of North Korea.  Red China is becoming more and more capitalist; over time, the Party itself will collapse as the sole power in China, just as it did in Russia.

[Guest leejosepho]

Greetings in return, ZaitZeff.

I would have even at first offered a greeting, but I was not certain that rubbish was actually from you.  And, please know my "attack" herein is on what you have posted, not on your person.

I am well aware there are many, many books I have not read on this subject, but I have read at least a few ... and I have yet to see, as mentioned by Traveller, any such "rubbish" in Scripture ... and no, that does not mean anything not written in Scripture is automatically "rubbish".

But at least in this case, Scripture actually says something quite different.  So, there is but one conclusion remaining: Rubbish!

However, I am at least one who would glady discuss with you the things you have posted, and my purpose for doing that would be two-fold:

1) To possibly help you see the truth of the matter;

2) To help others better see the depth of end-time deception.

Of course, you would certainly have equal opportunity to attempt to do the same kind of thing from your perspective, but be sure to know you would ultimately "lose" when so coming against Scripture.

Also, you might want to take notice:

I am a cab driver -- neither a philosopher nor a theologian.  Therefore, I know how to "cut through the traffic" on today's cluttered "highways of intellectual debate" and arrive at an ordered destination ... while sometimes leaving a few heads "spinning" along the way!

Blessings!

Lee

[zaitzeff]

>But at least in this case, Scripture actually says something >quite different.  So, there is but one conclusion remaining: >Rubbish!

your argument remind me of the Jews who rejected and today still reject Christ as the Messiah.  They believe the scriptures, or they say that they do.  They then cite a number of passages which they allege are prophecies of things they say the Messiah would do while on earth, to wit, bring world peace, prosperity and endless happiness to the Jews.  Because the world has not had peace in the last 2000 years, because their is poverty, because the Jews have been persecuted and oppressed in the last 2000 years, they say, therefore, the Messiah has not come.  Therefore, Jesus was not and is not the Messiah!

The history of Bible interpretation shows that it is so easy as you are making it.  The Bible says that there were 14 generations from David to Jeconiah, but actually there were 18!  The Bible tells you to cut off your hand if it offends or pluck out your eye, but I hazard the guess that you have not done so!  Correct me if I am wrong!

So, if you want to go by, "what the Bible says, nothing more and nothing less, without any interpretation and without using reason to make sense of it" let me know after you get back from the hospital emergency room.  Since you will be missing a hand and an eye, I don't know if you will still be driving your cab.  Perhaps you will have more time to study with your remaining eye.

As for the Bible, hear what it says,

"The kingdom of God is like a mustard seed.  when it is planted it is the smallest of the seeds, but it grows to be the largest plant."

"The kingdom of God is like leaven placed in meal, which leavens it."

"I saw a stone without hands that became a mountain and then filled the whole earth."

In each of these cases, describing the kingdom of God, the growth of the kingdom is shown to be gradual and to take place over time.

If you have kids, they don't become 6 feet tall in a day or even a year, or even 5 years.  The kingdom of God is like that in its growth.  It grows slowly and gradually in numbers, influence and maturity.  Even the Bible speaks of the church as the perfect man, no longer tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.  The church is not yet mature, but it becomes mature over a period of time and by a process.  The process is not yet done and will not be done for many years.  The same is true of society as a whole.

[Guest leejosepho]

"Z":

Sorry, but an attack against me or Scripture or anyone's understanding of it or obedience to it accomplishes nothing in the face of my allegation the stuff you posted is rubbish.

Zoom!

Wanna try again?

Blessings!

Lee