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A Discussion on the Temple in Ezekial 40-48


Matthitjah

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Grace to you,

This Soapbox will not be a debate but a discussion that IMO is at the core purpose of this Ministry. It is for the edification of the believer. Two of our more gifted brethren at Worthy, Shiloh357 and Botz, will discuss the Temple described in Ezekial 40-48 and it's implications. With the objective of getting at a revelation of the Truth. :rolleyes:

As always;

Guidelines for the discussion!

1) This will be a "polite" discussion. This means that neither party will engage in namecalling, ad-hominem attacks, or resort to any manner of character assassination at any point in time.

2) Time to reply will not be a consideration. However, please be considerate enough to at least try to reply in a timely manner, or otherwise concede the discussion.

3) This is not a "win/lose" discussion. The nature of a debate is to argue your points clearly and to the best of your ability. Nobody is right or wrong. Even though you may use the words "right" and "wrong" in the process of disputing a point, the purpose of debate is to get your point across, and support that point with evidence. It is up to the reader to decide who's argument is more weighty.

4) Books and online articles may be used as source material. However, those articles may be referenced in accordance with the Terms of Service. Links to inappropriate material will be removed. Material that is plagiarized will not be considered at all. At all times participants will cite their source material completely.

5) Wherever possible, please try to avoid leading the course of discussion "off track," or "off topic." In order to have a clear and concise debate it is necessary to stick to the topic until such time as the issues involved have been completely discussed and all points have been exhausted. When such a point in the discussion has been reached then other issues can be brought into the discussion and debated.

Let's pray for God's TRUTH to be revealed through this discussion.

Peace,

Dave

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Guest shiloh357

I would like to thank botz for accepting my invitation to this discussion and Mattitjah for setting up this thread.

The discussion pertains to the matter of the Temple of Ezekiel described in Ezekiel 40-48. In particular, it pertains to Ezekiel

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Thanks Shiloh (and Dave).

I would like to state my position from the outset, so that anyone following this will be able to see where I am coming from.

I have not studied Ezekiel very much at all in my life as a Believer, and I suspect there are many like me who have read it, but not really understood all the imagery and prophecy and especially the timescale.

My initial reaction on hearing several brothers mention the re-institution of Temple sacrifices in the future, has been 'hey wait a minute', because surely they are finished when Jesus died as the sacrificial Passover Lamb on the cross, giving up His life that we might be forgiven and have eternal life.

My gut reaction also stems from the idea, that when the New Heavens and the New Earth are revealed, the Lion will indeed lie down with the Lamb, and just as in Eden, there will be no death of any sort, human or animal, and certainly none for sacrifices.

I probably do not have to write this, but just in case anyone does not know....I totally reject anything even vaguely tainted by the smell of what is termed 'Replacement Theology', and therefore my approach to this discussion will be a voyage of discovery, and I will be looking at it without having had any prior teaching on the subject...or at least none that I have in any way, shape or form retained.

I am prepared to ask hard questions, and will seek answers that satisfy rather that continue to tickle my curiousity and still leave me no better off...and through the whole of this discussion I pray that the Holy Spirit will enable both Shiloh and myself to gain something that we didn't have when we first started, and that anyone following will also be challenged, lifted up in their spirit and have their understanding enlarged, knowing that these chapters are notoriously difficult to fully grasp, and that many learned, spiritual men have spent many hours wrestling with their import, and come to a variety of different conclusions.

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In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither. In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south. And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate. And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.

(Eze 40:1-4)

The man speaking to Ezekiel is Jesus. He is the same man who speaks to Ezekiel throughout the entire vision and in 43:7 says:

And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

(Eze 43:7)

So at the outset of this vision, we see that it is a vision that Jesus is revealing to Ezekiel. This is confirmed by other verses such as 44:2, 5, 9, 12, and several other places as well. Ezekiel is taken to a mountain in the Land of Israel and is allowed to see the frame of a city. It is not a city, but it has the structure similar to the city. It is, in fact, a future temple.

Now from 40:5 to 42:20, the measurements of temple structure are given. Given the sheer volume of measurements presented in these three chapters defies any notion that this is purely figurative in nature. There is far too much intricate architectural data for any reasonable person to draw the conclusion that this structure is meant to be understood as a parable, metaphor, allegory or what not. One would be forced to derive meanings for each of the dimensions given and that would be a practice in futility.

Not only do we have an immense amount of architectural data, but also notice what God says about the boundaries of the Land of Israel:

"This shall be the boundary of the land: On the north side, from the Great Sea by way of Hethlon to Lebo-hamath, and on to Zedad, Berothah, Sibraim (which lies on the border between Damascus and Hamath), as far as Hazer-hatticon, which is on the border of Hauran. So the boundary shall run from the sea to Hazar-enan, which is on the northern border of Damascus, with the border of Hamath to the north. This shall be the north side. "On the east side, the boundary shall run between Hauran and Damascus; along the Jordan between Gilead and the land of Israel; to the eastern sea and as far as Tamar. This shall be the east side. "On the south side, it shall run from Tamar as far as the waters of Meribah-kadesh, from there along the Brook of Egypt to the Great Sea. This shall be the south side. "On the west side, the Great Sea shall be the boundary to a point opposite Lebo-hamath. This shall be the west side. "So you shall divide this land among you according to the tribes of Israel.

(Eze 47:15-21)

In this passage there are 17 currently identifiable landmarks given by Ezekiel beginning with the Mediterranean Sea. The amount of geographic data provided of specific, known locations speaks to the need for a literal interpretation of the vision.

In chapter 48, we read of the tribal allotments, the measurements of the land surrounding the temple, the allotments for the Levites, and the measurements of the gates and the names of the tribes that will ascribed to each of the gates.

All of the data that surrounds the discussion of the sacrifices Ezekiel in terms of intricacy and detail reads similar in style to the instructions given to Moses as to how to construct the Tabernacle and the instruments that went into it. While Ezekiel

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The issue here is that since the data surrounding the above sacrifices pleads for a literal interpretation and the data pertaining the sacrifices themselves are described with the same detailed language, should not these sacrifices be treated as literal also?

That makes sense, I don't think you can jump back and forwards with passages of Scripture, suggesting this bit is allegorical, and the next bit isn't, as far as I am aware there are no passages in the Bible viewed in that manner, and from my reading of Ezekiel 40-48 it seems to be straightforward facts, similar to G-d dictating to Moses on Sinai.

The literal interpretation is not necessarily the central issue...I would also include:-

1. The Time scale...whether it is speaking of something yet to come, and if so precisely when?

2. The idea of sacrifices of any sort being reinstated...notice that the altar is eventually purified for the specific function of being an active item used on a regular basis by the Levites serving at the Temple....what sort of burnt offerings and peace offerings do you think would be in order? And if they are acceptable then, why not now? But I think the question most people would ask is what possible sacrifices are necessary under the New Covenant?

3. Is this solely for the born again Jews?

Another point that needs to be clarified from the onset is that providing there is another Temple built in Jerusalem in the coming years, that will be referred to as the Third Temple, and thus Ezekiel's Temple as the Fourth or Last Temple.

Another thing that occurs to me is that during the period of the Last Temple...what sort of bodies will those on earth possess...ie are the redeemed there with the L-rd (I presume that we are)?

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Guest shiloh357
That makes sense, I don't think you can jump back and forwards with passages of Scripture, suggesting this bit is allegorical, and the next bit isn't, as far as I am aware there are no passages in the Bible viewed in that manner, and from my reading of Ezekiel 40-48 it seems to be straightforward facts, similar to G-d dictating to Moses on Sinai.

Agreed.

The literal interpretation is not necessarily the central issue...I would also include:-

True. It is not the central issue, but the interpretative approach we employ effects how we treat the data. That is why I began establishing why I believe the literal approach best suits the information at hand.

1. The Time scale...whether it is speaking of something yet to come, and if so precisely when?

The given dimension of this temple structure are not only larger than the Temple Mount, it is larger than the current city of Jerusalem. It should go without saying that it is a structure that has never existed up to this point. It cannot belong to the New Heavens and New Earth. This is because we are told in Rev. 21:1 that in the New Earth, there is no more sea. We are also told in Rev. 21:22 that there will be no Temple in the New Earth. When Ezekiel is given the boundaries of the land re-allotted to the tribes of Israel, the first boundary marker is the Mediterranean Sea. So the temple described by Ezekiel is future from our perspective, but is not found on the New Earth in the book of Revelation. It is my conviction that the best time frame for this temple will be during the millennial reign of Christ.

2. The idea of sacrifices of any sort being reinstated...notice that the altar is eventually purified for the specific function of being an active item used on a regular basis by the Levites serving at the Temple....what sort of burnt offerings and peace offerings do you think would be in order? And if they are acceptable then, why not now? But I think the question most people would ask is what possible sacrifices are necessary under the New Covenant?

Burnt offerings and peace offerings are free-will offerings. A burnt offering must be from the best of the best of your flock, or herd. A man with oxen cannot bring a lamb, but those who can only bring a turtle dove is not seen as bring less than the man with the oxen, provided it is not a sickly or blemished dove. While the old Mosaic system is not being reinstated, the standards of what constitutes holy vs. profane do not change.

To your second question, they would not be acceptable now for several reasons:

1. God has not fully restored His nation, and they are still yet in a state of unbelief generally speaking.

2. The true Zadokite priesthood has not been re-established by the Lord

3. There is no temple in which such sacrifices can be performed.

4. There is no altar that meets the prescription

5. Messiah is not yet reigning on the earth on the throne of David.

Now to your third question, the New Covenant is cut in the blood of Jesus. The only sacrifice that pertains to the New Covenant is the final sin offering of Jesus on the cross.

Please note that in Ezekiel, the sin offerings are used only for ritual consecration, and have no expiatory role where man

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The given dimension of this temple structure are not only larger than the Temple Mount, it is larger than the current city of Jerusalem. It should go without saying that it is a structure that has never existed up to this point. It cannot belong to the New Heavens and New Earth. This is because we are told in Rev. 21:1 that in the New Earth, there is no more sea. We are also told in Rev. 21:22 that there will be no Temple in the New Earth. When Ezekiel is given the boundaries of the land re-allotted to the tribes of Israel, the first boundary marker is the Mediterranean Sea. So the temple described by Ezekiel is future from our perspective, but is not found on the New Earth in the book of Revelation. It is my conviction that the best time frame for this temple will be during the millennial reign of Christ.

That is how it seems to me at this point too...but one of the things I cannot get my head around just yet, is are we to believe then that the mortal human beings are mixing with the born-again beings who have inherited or been clothed with immortality, and that we now have a period of time in which both co-exist for 1,000 years? Very difficult to get ones head around this.

Burnt offerings and peace offerings are free-will offerings. A burnt offering must be from the best of the best of your flock, or herd. A man with oxen cannot bring a lamb, but those who can only bring a turtle dove is not seen as bring less than the man with the oxen, provided it is not a sickly or blemished dove. While the old Mosaic system is not being reinstated, the standards of what constitutes holy vs. profane do not change.

I understand this....but are immortal resurrected beings going to make the sacrifices?...If so, is it only the Jewish people who will be ministering in this way, or will it be the mortal Jews, using mortal peace and free-will offerings?

To your second question, they would not be acceptable now for several reasons:

1. God has not fully restored His nation, and they are still yet in a state of unbelief generally speaking.

2. The true Zadokite priesthood has not been re-established by the Lord

3. There is no temple in which such sacrifices can be performed.

4. There is no altar that meets the prescription

5. Messiah is not yet reigning on the earth on the throne of David.

So it is only a question of timing and correct handling/method, rather than the sense that these things are no longer necessary and have no useful function in the light of all that Jesus has achieved through His death and resurrection.

Now to your third question, the New Covenant is cut in the blood of Jesus. The only sacrifice that pertains to the New Covenant is the final sin offering of Jesus on the cross.

Please note that in Ezekiel, the sin offerings are used only for ritual consecration, and have no expiatory role where man

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That is how it seems to me at this point too...but one of the things I cannot get my head around just yet, is are we to believe then that the mortal human beings are mixing with the born-again beings who have inherited or been clothed with immortality, and that we now have a period of time in which both co-exist for 1,000 years? Very difficult to get ones head around this.

I don't know if they are mixing in the sense that we are rubbing shoulders with them, but I think we will inhabit the same planet and maybe the same region.

I understand this....but are immortal resurrected beings going to make the sacrifices?...
People like you me? I don't think so. See, under the Mosaic system, each person had to bring his best animal or he had to purchase an animal that was acceptable. He had to provide his own sacrifice. Under the Mosaic system, you had to bring the animal yourself, and if it were say, a sin offering, you had to confess your sin in order to transfer your sin to the animal.

That is not how it is depicted in Ezekiel. In Ezekiel, no one is bringing any sacrifices to the Temple. No one is transferring his or her sin to an animal. Rather, what we have in Ezekiel is that the Levites are the only ones offering sacrifices. They do it as service of worship and consecration, and not to provide atonement for sin.

If so, is it only the Jewish people who will be ministering in this way, or will it be the mortal Jews, using mortal peace and free-will offerings?

I believe it will only be Levites based on the text. Will these be resurrected Levites or mortal? You are asking me a question for which there is not sufficient information from the text of Ezekiel to make a definitive answer. My personal conviction will be that it will be only resurrected Levites. I cannot be dogmatic and am open to being wrong on that issue.

So it is only a question of timing and correct handling/method, rather than the sense that these things are no longer necessary and have no useful function in the light of all that Jesus has achieved through His death and resurrection.

The Bible never claims the sacrifices have no useful function after Jesus death, burial and resurrection. In fact, Paul himself performed sacrifices on possibly two different occasions. What the Bible does say is that the sacrifice for sin is no more. This is consistent with the description in the vision of Ezekiel.

21
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Hey bro...Just a quick note to let you know I am thinking, praying and reading on Ezekiel when I can, but have not had time to get down to writing yet as I am trying to sort my end of the year tax assessment, but will add more as soon as it is possible.

Shalom lecha chaverli. Botz

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Tax return safely completed...I used to have an accountant to do it, but he became rather expensive, and so I have to compute all the years figures in a very amateur way, and I hate crunching numbers, so I am glad it is over for another year.

Right back on track with the whole set up that is found in Ezekiel 40-48.

This so far is what I assume you believe:- After the Tribulation, Jesus will return to Earth with every Believer that has ever lived, and He will rule from the Temple at Jerusalem, which will be ministered by those mortal Messianic Jews who have survived the Tribulation, while all the immortal Believers will be given other tasks etc. (maybe a bit like the angels...we might even mingle with them). I would think the Earth will be a fairly crowded place, unless we are here but invisible and in another sort of dimension.

When the L-rds government is set up in Jerusalem, and the Temple established, then there will be sin offerings, guilt offerings and burnt offerings, although the sin offerings will done as acts of consecration/purification.

The remaining survivors in the world, although they know Jesus has come back, do not all become Believer's, and they have to present themselves before the L-rd on a yearly? basis. The tribes of Israel are apportioned their land, and presumably the L-rd is now demonstrating to Israel how they should have been a light to the nations if they had obeyed Him in the first place and discerned where or to Whom the Law was leading them, instead of rejecting Him and becoming treacherous and hard-hearted.

From what I read of the consecrations in Ezekiel, G-d cleanses the people symbolically if you like Ezk 43.

An interesting verse in the same chapter is 10

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