rollinTHUNDER Posted December 26, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,985 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 433 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/23/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2002 Thunder, Rev. 20:4-5 makes it very clear that these who are killed during the tribulation are also part of the first resurrection - which occurs right before the start of the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ, per verse 4. Make special note of the last part of verse 5, which shows plainly that John saw much more than their souls - he saw them reigning with Christ! This passage does not even mention the "souls under the altar", which is discussed way prior in the book. Furthermore, you use words and phrases like "I would guess" and "It's also possible" and "some things we won't know until we get there" to back up your argument for a pre-trib rapture. By pointing this out to you, I am not claiming to have all knowledge or all the answers but merely to show how people can easily twist and turn scripture to their liking instead of taking scripture for what it plainly tells us. In this case, the first resurrection will include saints who died during the tribulation. As I said before, the timing is all wrong with the pre-trib theory, that is, if we are letting the Bible be our guide. God Bless, FishMan FishMan, I agree that they are part of the first resurrection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FishMan Posted December 26, 2002 Share Posted December 26, 2002 I never said only tribulation saints make up the first resurrection. I only said that they are included, along with all believers, including OT saints as. On this we both agree. My point is this: Pre-tribbers use I Thess. 4 to describe the pre-trib rapture. Well, in this passage, Paul plainly says that a resurrection of believers will occur before or as the rapture can take place. So.....if tribulation saints are included in that first resurrection, then there is no way possible for it to occur right before the tribulation! Do you get what I mean by the timing issue? This evidence alone, taken at face value from the word of God, blows a pre-trib rapture theory out of the water. However, it sounds like you want to make the first resurrection a three part event and that is not what the Bible teaches. FishMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted December 26, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.28 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 26, 2002 Rollin, Hi brother. The firstfruit's are the dead in Christ. As they lay now and will until the ressurection of the just. (Firstfruits', defined: means the earliest fruits havested,also the first born. The consecration of such was an important part of the religion of Israel.) G-d forbid any harm came to my brother, If you died today and missed the early rapture you are prepared for? Would you no longer be part of the bride of Christ? You've prepared much!For that matter would say St. Paul because he is dead already , not be part of the bride of Christ? When would you receive your ressurected body? Keep plugging away Rollin. I do greatly Love you my Brother. Even more than my own blood relation brother, a non believer. Whom frequently persecutes my belief despite my acts of Love. Although I'm working on him. Peace :inlove: Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollinTHUNDER Posted December 27, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,985 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 433 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/23/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2002 My point is this: Pre-tribbers use I Thess. 4 to describe the pre-trib rapture. Well, in this passage, Paul plainly says that a resurrection of believers will occur before or as the rapture can take place. So.....if tribulation saints are included in that first resurrection, then there is no way possible for it to occur right before the tribulation! Do you get what I mean by the timing issue? This evidence alone, taken at face value from the word of God, blows a pre-trib rapture theory out of the water. However, it sounds like you want to make the first resurrection a three part event and that is not what the Bible teaches. FishMan Why do think it can't happen before the tribulation, when the beginning of it started 2000 years ago?? Â They will all go in their own order. Â Wasn't Christ raised before the tribulation?? Â And the last of them will be at His second coming, or before the millennium begins. All in their proper order though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollinTHUNDER Posted December 27, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,985 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 433 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/23/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2002 Rollin, Hi brother. The firstfruit's are the dead in Christ. As they lay now and will until the ressurection of the just. (Firstfruits', defined: means the earliest fruits havested,also the first born. The consecration of such was an important part of the religion of Israel.) G-d forbid any harm came to my brother, If you died today and missed the early rapture you are prepared for? Would you no longer be part of the bride of Christ? You've prepared much!For that matter would say St. Paul because he is dead already , not be part of the bride of Christ? When would you receive your ressurected body? Hello Dr. Luke, There would be no problem if I got hit by a bus tomorrow. The dead in Christ will rise first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollinTHUNDER Posted December 29, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,985 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 433 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/23/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 29, 2002 FishMan, I believe the first resurrection is the resurrection of the living, or the righteous. Â In it, all of God's righteous ones will be brought back. Â I believe this includes everyone from the time of Adam all the way to Christ' second coming. Since Christ began this first resurrection 2000 years ago, we know it started then, but we also know that it will end at His second coming. Â Everyone in their own order. Â You seem to have a problem with it being in three phases, but the scriptures below prove that it will be in at least three phases, and possibly more, but at least three. 1Co 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.(dead) Ro 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. Jas 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. If Christ goes first, then the firstfruits of the living, followed by those that belong to Him at His second coming. Â This makes at least three, and the possibility of four if you count the raising of the two witnesses in the tribulation. The Vine (Christ) / Â The Branches (the workers) / Â The Fruit (produced by the workers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FishMan Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Thunder, I see where you're coming from, but none of the posted scriptures hint that the 1st resurrection is broken up into 3 phases. Yes, we will be raised just as Jesus was raised, but to say theses scriptures tell us that we are right now in the 1st resurrection period is I think stretching their meaning. Envisioning this theory makes my head hurt like when I think about there being one God in three persons! Ouch! But hey, I am enjoying this and if we always agreed there would be no use for these boards, right? Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollinTHUNDER Posted December 30, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,985 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 433 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/23/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 30, 2002 But hey, I am enjoying this and if we always agreed there would be no use for these boards, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakcat74 Posted February 7, 2003 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 37 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/10/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted February 7, 2003 Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib... I don't care... All I know He is coming back... and if my head has to roll... so be it! :thumb: B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted February 7, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 92 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/05/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted February 7, 2003 Some of you display anger at our preaching of post trib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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