Unknown Soldier Posted December 14, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 14, 2002 CD, Can you show one verse in the New Testament that directly ties elect with Israel? Just one. In the quest for holiness and righteousness, Unknown Soldier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanakila Posted December 15, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 400 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted December 15, 2002 Romans 11:25,26 All Israel shall be saved, amen. This is during the Tribulation, as obviously they aren't saved now, but far from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FishMan Posted December 24, 2002 Share Posted December 24, 2002 I am not for the pre-trib position because I simply don't see it in God's Word. There are many reasons I could point out, and maybe later I will, but here are a couple of things to consider: 1. Pre-tribbers teach that the Holy Spirit will leave this earth when the church is raptured. Yet at the same time, they claim that there will be salvation offered to some during the great tribulation. Well, if the holy spirit is removed from the earth and His work cut off, how will these people come to believe? By their own wisdom or intellect? 2. Pre-tribbers also teahc that the 1st resurrection will occur at the time of the rapture. If this is the case, how can believers who died during the tribulation also be a part of the 1st resurrection if it happened at least 7 years prior? These things, along with many others that pre-tribbers tend to believe, just don't add up with the Bible's timing. And all of this talk about God taking us out of the midst of tribulation and persecution is driving me nuts. Tell that to the millions of Christians throughout these 2,000 years who have shed blood and died for the name of Jesus Christ! Did God love them less? Of course not, and yet he allowed them to die in persecution. Wasn't it Jesus who said fear not those who can destroy the body but cannot destroy the soul? I don't think pre-tribbers should be running around in fear about what the Anti-Christ is going to do to them if there is not pre-trib rapture. God knows who are His, and He can take care of us just fine, even in the midst of the terrible times ahead. FishMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted December 25, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.28 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 25, 2002 Fishman, I also wished to inquire of G-d recently of the rapture and the pre trib post's and doctrine I have and had seen. He has shown me much by way of scripture reading. Time is short. The rapture will be upon us soon, in my mind. Take a look at theTrumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Then look at 1 Corinthians 15:52. Then inquire of the Lord about the seventh Trumpet in Revelation 11. See if he doesn't explain it to you. It won't be easy. It was very frustrating for me. It took much study and prayer. You must overcome what has been preached by the mass' for a short period of time. I am still somewhat confused. Although much enlightened. Look at Matthew 24. Really study it. Then look at the parable of the Virgins in Matthew 25 Notice how verse 11 of Matthew 25 say's Afterward the foolish virgins came saying to the Lord let us in. The Wedding already happened the door was shut. Where else does he say "verily I knew you not"? Think about it. If your not included in the ressurection of the just? What resurrection will you be in? Search out his Word. Search out his holiness. Rend your heart. Seek with true conviction. :thumb: Peace :inlove: Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollinTHUNDER Posted December 25, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,985 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 433 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/23/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 25, 2002 I am not for the pre-trib position because I simply don't see it in God's Word. There are many reasons I could point out, and maybe later I will, but here are a couple of things to consider: Hello FishMan, You seem to think you have plenty of time. So much so, that you can even wait for the sign of His coming in the end of the 7 yr tribulation. I just thought I would give you one scripture to munch on for a while. Matt. 24: 48-50 - "But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, "My master is staying away a long time," (49)and he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. (50)The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of." It appears to me, that you post-tribbers are setting a very dangerous trap for yourselves, thinking that you have plenty of time. Satan doesn't even have to mess with you that much, because he is snickering while he watches you bate your own trap. Watch out my friend!! Jesus will come like a thief in the night. I have never heard of a thief that gives you signs of him coming. Be careful of what you ask for, because you just might get it. The five wise virgins were ready first, and they were rewarded, but the five foolish ones thought they had plenty of time like you, but they were denied entrance as the door was shut. Doesn't this sound familiar?? Can you afford to be wrong?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FishMan Posted December 26, 2002 Share Posted December 26, 2002 Thunder, A Christian's belief in the Rapture does not grant him access into the kingdom of God, as you seem to imply. Nor does me being a post-tribber automatically make me one who is spiritually lazy or presently "beating my servants", so to speak. I would appreciate you taking a little more caution in your wording - I am new to Worthy Boards, but by no means new to our Lord and Savior. I would like for you to address the points I brought up in my earlier post. How do you explain Revelation 20 which includes martyred tribulation saints who refused to take the mark of the beast as being part of the first resurrection? How can that be if the first resurrection occurs before the tribulation even begins, as pre-tribbers hold to? God Bless, FishMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollinTHUNDER Posted December 26, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,985 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 433 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/23/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2002 Thunder, A Christian's belief in the Rapture does not grant him access into the kingdom of God, as you seem to imply. Nor does me being a post-tribber automatically make me one who is spiritually lazy or presently "beating my servants", so to speak. I would appreciate you taking a little more caution in your wording - I am new to Worthy Boards, but by no means new to our Lord and Savior. I would like for you to address the points I brought up in my earlier post. How do you explain Revelation 20 which includes martyred tribulation saints who refused to take the mark of the beast as being part of the first resurrection? How can that be if the first resurrection occurs before the tribulation even begins, as pre-tribbers hold to? God Bless, FishMan FisnMan, I never implied that you were lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FishMan Posted December 26, 2002 Share Posted December 26, 2002 Thunder, sorry, but that doesn't answer my question. Please address this point blank: How do saints who die during the great tribulation end up in a resurrection that occured at least 7 years earlier? FishMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollinTHUNDER Posted December 26, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,985 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 433 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/23/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2002 Thunder, sorry, but that doesn't answer my question. Please address this point blank: How do saints who die during the great tribulation end up in a resurrection that occured at least 7 years earlier? FishMan Actually, the order of the resurrection started with Christ about 2000 years ago, then the order continues until the second coming. The martyrs you speak of have not been resurrected yet. John saw their souls under the altar, not their resurrected bodies. I would guess that they won't receive their resurrected bodies until the second coming. But the bride will already have theirs in the rapture. It's also possible that the martyrs could receive their bodies when the two witnesses are raised. Some things we won't know until we get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FishMan Posted December 26, 2002 Share Posted December 26, 2002 Thunder, Rev. 20:4-5 makes it very clear that these who are killed during the tribulation are also part of the first resurrection - which occurs right before the start of the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ, per verse 4. Make special note of the last part of verse 5, which shows plainly that John saw much more than their souls - he saw them reigning with Christ! This passage does not even mention the "souls under the altar", which is discussed way prior in the book. Furthermore, you use words and phrases like "I would guess" and "It's also possible" and "some things we won't know until we get there" to back up your argument for a pre-trib rapture. By pointing this out to you, I am not claiming to have all knowledge or all the answers but merely to show how people can easily twist and turn scripture to their liking instead of taking scripture for what it plainly tells us. In this case, the first resurrection will include saints who died during the tribulation. As I said before, the timing is all wrong with the pre-trib theory, that is, if we are letting the Bible be our guide. God Bless, FishMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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