Was AD 70 the Parousia?

[PGA]

Hi Roy,

Out of interest Roy, would you include yourself in the following quote?

This Philip Mauro character is just as mixed up as anyone on this forum! -Roy

I don't feel like I'm mixed up.

Peter

[PGA]

You're right when you said, "Concerning the kingdom, Jesus said in Matthew 16:28 that some then alive would see Him coming in His kingdom," but what you neglected to see was that He was talking about a FORETASTE! A SAMPLING IN A VISION of how it will be when Yeshua` will be "coming in His Kingdom!" Look at it again:

Matthew 16:28-17:13

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

KJV

Mark 9:1-13

1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.

7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?

12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.

13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

KJV

Luke 9:27-36

27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

KJV

See how His statement in all three versions was immediately followed by the transfiguration? The transfiguration WAS the vision of His coming in His Kingdom, and some of them, namely Shim`own Kefa, Ya`aqov, and Yochanan (Simon Peter, James and John) SAW THE VISION, just as Yeshua` predicted! –Roy

Shalom Roy,

I’ve digested what you are saying more during this weekend. Yes, these disciples were eyewitnesses of His glory and tasted the coming of His kingdom, as Peter alludes to in 2 Peter 1:16-18. But that still does not identify when the kingdom would come, even if they did get a glimpse of it then. You are reading thousands of years into it. You have to ignore a lot of Scripture to have such a view for Scripture screams 1^st century fulfillment.

Note also in Matthew 16:27 is the phrase ‘the Son of Man is going to come in His Father’s glory.’ I’ve mentioned this before. How did the Father come in the OT? Jesus was coming in like manner. He came with judgment but not physically. He used other nations and calamities in judgment.

Another question to consider in the Transfiguration is what is the significance of the appearance of Moses and Elijah? They were both from the Old Covenant order of things and they were insignificant compared to Jesus, on whom the Father was well pleased. Jesus was the one who was coming with the new and better covenant, and soon. Jesus was the one who was coming in judgment on this unbelieving generation who would not accept Him (with the better covenant) and avenge the blood of all the prophets as well as bringing salvation for those who were waiting for Him. The theme of avenging the blood is a common theme throughout Scripture, coming to fruition in the NT. The theme of a better covenant is also constant in the NT.

Matthew 23 is a case in point. Jesus is pronouncing woes/judgments on these old covenant teachers and believers. He says to THEM that all the righteous blood shed on earth will be judged in this generation and He even tells them that their house (the city and temple) will be left to them desolate.

Matthew 23:1-2

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Seven Woes

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ² “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.

Matthew 23:29-38

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

²⁹ “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. ³⁰ And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ ³¹ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. ³² Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

³³ “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? ³⁴ Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. ³⁵ And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. ³⁶ I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

³⁷ “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. ³⁸ Look, your house is left to you desolate.

This theme is prevalent in the old and new testaments concerning Jerusalem and judgment for slaughtering the prophets and all those sent to them.

Luke 21:20-23

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

²⁰ “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. ²¹ Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. ²² For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. ²³ How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

Luke 19:39-44

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

³⁹ Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”

⁴⁰ “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”

⁴¹ As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it ⁴² and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. ⁴³ The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. ⁴⁴ They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

¹⁴ For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, ¹⁵ who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men ¹⁶ in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

Notice the common theme – judgment on the Jews who are responsible for killing the Lord and all the prophets, both OT and NT prophets. Jesus makes this plain and the apostles make this plain. God is going to avenge these prophets so that all that is written may be fulfilled concerning His judgment.

Deuteronomy 32:16-43

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

¹⁶ They made him jealous with their foreign gods

and angered him with their detestable idols.

¹⁷ They sacrificed to demons, which are not God—

gods they had not known,

gods that recently appeared,

gods your fathers did not fear.

¹⁸ You deserted the Rock, who fathered you;

you forgot the God who gave you birth.

¹⁹ The Lord saw this and rejected them

because he was angered by his sons and daughters.

²⁰ “I will hide my face from them,” he said,

“and see what their end will be;

for they are a perverse generation,

children who are unfaithful.

²¹ They made me jealous by what is no god

and angered me with their worthless idols.

I will make them envious by those who are not a people;

I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.

²² For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,

one that burns to the realm of death below.

It will devour the earth and its harvests

and set afire the foundations of the mountains.

²³ “I will heap calamities upon them

and spend my arrows against them.

²⁴ I will send wasting famine against them,

consuming pestilence and deadly plague;

I will send against them the fangs of wild beasts,

the venom of vipers that glide in the dust.

²⁵ In the street the sword will make them childless;

in their homes terror will reign.

Young men and young women will perish,

infants and gray-haired men.

²⁶ I said I would scatter them

and blot out their memory from mankind,

²⁷ but I dreaded the taunt of the enemy,

lest the adversary misunderstand

and say, ‘Our hand has triumphed;

the Lord has not done all this.’”

²⁸ They are a nation without sense,

there is no discernment in them.

²⁹ If only they were wise and would understand this

and discern what their end will be!

³⁰ How could one man chase a thousand,

or two put ten thousand to flight,

unless their Rock had sold them,

unless the Lord had given them up?

³¹ For their rock is not like our Rock,

as even our enemies concede.

³² Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom

and from the fields of Gomorrah.

Their grapes are filled with poison,

and their clusters with bitterness.

³³ Their wine is the venom of serpents,

the deadly poison of cobras.

³⁴ “Have I not kept this in reserve

and sealed it in my vaults?

³⁵ It is mine to avenge; I will repay.

In due time their foot will slip;

their day of disaster is near

and their doom rushes upon them.”

³⁶ The Lord will judge his people

and have compassion on his servants

when he sees their strength is gone

and no one is left, slave or free.

³⁷ He will say: “Now where are their gods,

the rock they took refuge in,

³⁸ the gods who ate the fat of their sacrifices

and drank the wine of their drink offerings?

Let them rise up to help you!

Let them give you shelter!

³⁹ “See now that I myself am He!

There is no god besides me.

I put to death and I bring to life,

I have wounded and I will heal,

and no one can deliver out of my hand.

⁴⁰ I lift my hand to heaven and declare:

As surely as I live forever,

⁴¹ when I sharpen my flashing sword

and my hand grasps it in judgment,

I will take vengeance on my adversaries

and repay those who hate me.

⁴² I will make my arrows drunk with blood,

while my sword devours flesh:

the blood of the slain and the captives,

the heads of the enemy leaders.”

⁴³ Rejoice, O nations, with his people,

for he will avenge the blood of his servants;

he will take vengeance on his enemies

and make atonement for his land and people.

This judgment in Deuteronomy is the kind of judgment that Jesus is pronouncing on this stiff-necked people. They are heaping up their judgment to the limit. Nothing like the judgment that is coming upon them soon in that generation will ever be experienced by this nation again because their whole world of the Old Covenant they made with God is coming to an end. Throughout His three and a half year ministry Jesus keeps warning them to flee from the coming judgment.

This theme of judgment is also a common theme in the Revelation. In fact the city of Jerusalem is compared to a great prostitute (Jer. 3:1-3), Sodom (Isa. 1:21) and Babylon. The ‘great city’ of Revelation 11:8 is also the great prostitute of Revelation 17:1, a harlot (Isa. 1:9-10, 21), the ‘great city’ of Revelation 17:5-6; 17:16-18; 18:2,4-6, 8, 10, 16, 19, 20-24. A great deal could be made of these verses, but if you disagree that this is talking of Jerusalem, then ask yourself where the blood of the prophets and saints have been shed or where the Lord was slain? Ask yourself why Jesus concerned Himself so much about the avenging of this blood. How many times did the saints cry out for vengeance? Well it was fulfilled in A.D. 70.

Revelation 11:8

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

⁸ Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Revelation 18:19-24

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

¹⁹ They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe, O great city,

where all who had ships on the sea

became rich through her wealth!

In one hour she has been brought to ruin!

²⁰ Rejoice over her, O heaven!

Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!

God has judged her for the way she treated you.’”

²¹ Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

“With such violence

the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,

never to be found again.

²² The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters,

will never be heard in you again.

No workman of any trade

will ever be found in you again.

The sound of a millstone

will never be heard in you again.

²³ The light of a lamp

will never shine in you again.

The voice of bridegroom and bride

will never be heard in you again.

Your merchants were the world’s great men.

By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.

²⁴ In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,

and of all who have been killed on the earth.”

Do you notice any similarities between Revelation and Jesus’ warnings in Matthew 23? What other city ever treated the prophets and saints in this manner?

Jerusalem was meant to be the holy city, the city of the LORD, the center of God’s presence on earth, the city of the great King, the LORD God Almighty, as well as the capital and most influential city; a city in which the atonement of the people was made. Well this earth was soon to pass away, in Jesus’ generation; the heavens and the earth were going to be shaken, metaphorically speaking. God was going to abandon it once again, forsake it, this time never to return to the city. Where is God’s light and presence found in the old Jerusalem after the death of Christ except in His coming in judgment or in the body of believers that lived there? It was no longer the holy city. Jesus lamented for it. Where in the NT is the physical nation of Israel mentioned as God’s people after they reject their Messiah? Now the church is mentioned as God’s people, the true Israel of God, the remnant. The 144,000 come out of the 12 tribes of Israel during this period. If you want to be literal, how do you get 144,000 after the destruction of the city when there are no longer any genealogies? They were destroyed with the city and temple in A.D. 70, unless you know otherwise?

No, we see the New Jerusalem mentioned, the heavenly city, the new temple, the body of Christ, the new and better covenant, the Spirit of life, the seeds of promise, not the letter of death. And the transition between old and new was complete in A.D. 70. The old no longer existed after this point. No more city – destroyed and in ruins, no more nation – all dispersed, no more covenant for it could no longer be fulfilled to the letter, no more priesthood because our High Priest is after a different order, no more temple, no more genealogies, no more sacrifices of atonement for the sins of the people.

Acts 13:38-41

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

³⁸ “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. ³⁹ Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. ⁴⁰ Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:

⁴¹ “‘Look, you scoffers,

wonder and perish,

for I am going to do something in your days

that you would never believe,

even if someone told you.’^[a]”

Footnotes:

1. Acts 13:41 Hab. 1:5
   

As God once brought the Babylonians in judgment against His people and His holy city, so now He is going to bring the Romans in judgment of this stiff-necked people and this city. The blood of the saints was calling out, just as it was before Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 586 B.C. (Hab. 1:2), but now with the crucifixion and rejection of Christ they had heaped their sins to the limit. Everywhere we read that the apostles go in the Book of Acts there is Jewish opposition to the message.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Peter.

You're right when you said, "Concerning the kingdom, Jesus said in Matthew 16:28 that some then alive would see Him coming in His kingdom," but what you neglected to see was that He was talking about a FORETASTE! A SAMPLING IN A VISION of how it will be when Yeshua` will be "coming in His Kingdom!" Look at it again:

Matthew 16:28-17:13

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

KJV

Mark 9:1-13

1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.

7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?

12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.

13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

KJV

Luke 9:27-36

27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

KJV

See how His statement in all three versions was immediately followed by the transfiguration? The transfiguration WAS the vision of His coming in His Kingdom, and some of them, namely Shim`own Kefa, Ya`aqov, and Yochanan (Simon Peter, James and John) SAW THE VISION, just as Yeshua` predicted! –Roy

Shalom Roy,

I’ve digested what you are saying more during this weekend. Yes, these disciples were eyewitnesses of His glory and tasted the coming of His kingdom, as Peter alludes to in 2 Peter 1:16-18. But that still does not identify when the kingdom would come, even if they did get a glimpse of it then. You are reading thousands of years into it. You have to ignore a lot of Scripture to have such a view for Scripture screams 1^st century fulfillment.

Note also in Matthew 16:27 is the phrase ‘the Son of Man is going to come in His Father’s glory.’ I’ve mentioned this before. How did the Father come in the OT? Jesus was coming in like manner. He came with judgment but not physically. He used other nations and calamities in judgment.

Another question to consider in the Transfiguration is what is the significance of the appearance of Moses and Elijah? They were both from the Old Covenant order of things and they were insignificant compared to Jesus, on whom the Father was well pleased. Jesus was the one who was coming with the new and better covenant, and soon. Jesus was the one who was coming in judgment on this unbelieving generation who would not accept Him (with the better covenant) and avenge the blood of all the prophets as well as bringing salvation for those who were waiting for Him. The theme of avenging the blood is a common theme throughout Scripture, coming to fruition in the NT. The theme of a better covenant is also constant in the NT.

Matthew 23 is a case in point. Jesus is pronouncing woes/judgments on these old covenant teachers and believers. He says to THEM that all the righteous blood shed on earth will be judged in this generation and He even tells them that their house (the city and temple) will be left to them desolate.

Matthew 23:1-2

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Seven Woes

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ² “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.

Matthew 23:29-38

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

²⁹ “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. ³⁰ And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ ³¹ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. ³² Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

³³ “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? ³⁴ Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. ³⁵ And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. ³⁶ I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

³⁷ “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. ³⁸ Look, your house is left to you desolate.

This theme is prevalent in the old and new testaments concerning Jerusalem and judgment for slaughtering the prophets and all those sent to them.

Luke 21:20-23

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

²⁰ “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. ²¹ Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. ²² For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. ²³ How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

Luke 19:39-44

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

³⁹ Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”

⁴⁰ “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”

⁴¹ As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it ⁴² and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. ⁴³ The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. ⁴⁴ They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

¹⁴ For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, ¹⁵ who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men ¹⁶ in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

Notice the common theme – judgment on the Jews who are responsible for killing the Lord and all the prophets, both OT and NT prophets. Jesus makes this plain and the apostles make this plain. God is going to avenge these prophets so that all that is written may be fulfilled concerning His judgment.

Deuteronomy 32:16-43

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

¹⁶ They made him jealous with their foreign gods

and angered him with their detestable idols.

¹⁷ They sacrificed to demons, which are not God—

gods they had not known,

gods that recently appeared,

gods your fathers did not fear.

¹⁸ You deserted the Rock, who fathered you;

you forgot the God who gave you birth.

¹⁹ The Lord saw this and rejected them

because he was angered by his sons and daughters.

²⁰ “I will hide my face from them,” he said,

“and see what their end will be;

for they are a perverse generation,

children who are unfaithful.

²¹ They made me jealous by what is no god

and angered me with their worthless idols.

I will make them envious by those who are not a people;

I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.

²² For a fire has been kindled by my wrath,

one that burns to the realm of death below.

It will devour the earth and its harvests

and set afire the foundations of the mountains.

²³ “I will heap calamities upon them

and spend my arrows against them.

²⁴ I will send wasting famine against them,

consuming pestilence and deadly plague;

I will send against them the fangs of wild beasts,

the venom of vipers that glide in the dust.

²⁵ In the street the sword will make them childless;

in their homes terror will reign.

Young men and young women will perish,

infants and gray-haired men.

²⁶ I said I would scatter them

and blot out their memory from mankind,

²⁷ but I dreaded the taunt of the enemy,

lest the adversary misunderstand

and say, ‘Our hand has triumphed;

the Lord has not done all this.’”

²⁸ They are a nation without sense,

there is no discernment in them.

²⁹ If only they were wise and would understand this

and discern what their end will be!

³⁰ How could one man chase a thousand,

or two put ten thousand to flight,

unless their Rock had sold them,

unless the Lord had given them up?

³¹ For their rock is not like our Rock,

as even our enemies concede.

³² Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom

and from the fields of Gomorrah.

Their grapes are filled with poison,

and their clusters with bitterness.

³³ Their wine is the venom of serpents,

the deadly poison of cobras.

³⁴ “Have I not kept this in reserve

and sealed it in my vaults?

³⁵ It is mine to avenge; I will repay.

In due time their foot will slip;

their day of disaster is near

and their doom rushes upon them.”

³⁶ The Lord will judge his people

and have compassion on his servants

when he sees their strength is gone

and no one is left, slave or free.

³⁷ He will say: “Now where are their gods,

the rock they took refuge in,

³⁸ the gods who ate the fat of their sacrifices

and drank the wine of their drink offerings?

Let them rise up to help you!

Let them give you shelter!

³⁹ “See now that I myself am He!

There is no god besides me.

I put to death and I bring to life,

I have wounded and I will heal,

and no one can deliver out of my hand.

⁴⁰ I lift my hand to heaven and declare:

As surely as I live forever,

⁴¹ when I sharpen my flashing sword

and my hand grasps it in judgment,

I will take vengeance on my adversaries

and repay those who hate me.

⁴² I will make my arrows drunk with blood,

while my sword devours flesh:

the blood of the slain and the captives,

the heads of the enemy leaders.”

⁴³ Rejoice, O nations, with his people,

for he will avenge the blood of his servants;

he will take vengeance on his enemies

and make atonement for his land and people.

This judgment in Deuteronomy is the kind of judgment that Jesus is pronouncing on this stiff-necked people. They are heaping up their judgment to the limit. Nothing like the judgment that is coming upon them soon in that generation will ever be experienced by this nation again because their whole world of the Old Covenant they made with God is coming to an end. Throughout His three and a half year ministry Jesus keeps warning them to flee from the coming judgment.

This theme of judgment is also a common theme in the Revelation. In fact the city of Jerusalem is compared to a great prostitute (Jer. 3:1-3), Sodom (Isa. 1:21) and Babylon. The ‘great city’ of Revelation 11:8 is also the great prostitute of Revelation 17:1, a harlot (Isa. 1:9-10, 21), the ‘great city’ of Revelation 17:5-6; 17:16-18; 18:2,4-6, 8, 10, 16, 19, 20-24. A great deal could be made of these verses, but if you disagree that this is talking of Jerusalem, then ask yourself where the blood of the prophets and saints have been shed or where the Lord was slain? Ask yourself why Jesus concerned Himself so much about the avenging of this blood. How many times did the saints cry out for vengeance? Well it was fulfilled in A.D. 70.

Revelation 11:8

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

⁸ Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Revelation 18:19-24

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

¹⁹ They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe, O great city,

where all who had ships on the sea

became rich through her wealth!

In one hour she has been brought to ruin!

²⁰ Rejoice over her, O heaven!

Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!

God has judged her for the way she treated you.’”

²¹ Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

“With such violence

the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,

never to be found again.

²² The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters,

will never be heard in you again.

No workman of any trade

will ever be found in you again.

The sound of a millstone

will never be heard in you again.

²³ The light of a lamp

will never shine in you again.

The voice of bridegroom and bride

will never be heard in you again.

Your merchants were the world’s great men.

By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.

²⁴ In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,

and of all who have been killed on the earth.”

Do you notice any similarities between Revelation and Jesus’ warnings in Matthew 23? What other city ever treated the prophets and saints in this manner?

Jerusalem was meant to be the holy city, the city of the LORD, the center of God’s presence on earth, the city of the great King, the LORD God Almighty, as well as the capital and most influential city; a city in which the atonement of the people was made. Well this earth was soon to pass away, in Jesus’ generation; the heavens and the earth were going to be shaken, metaphorically speaking. God was going to abandon it once again, forsake it, this time never to return to the city. Where is God’s light and presence found in the old Jerusalem after the death of Christ except in His coming in judgment or in the body of believers that lived there? It was no longer the holy city. Jesus lamented for it. Where in the NT is the physical nation of Israel mentioned as God’s people after they reject their Messiah? Now the church is mentioned as God’s people, the true Israel of God, the remnant. The 144,000 come out of the 12 tribes of Israel during this period. If you want to be literal, how do you get 144,000 after the destruction of the city when there are no longer any genealogies? They were destroyed with the city and temple in A.D. 70, unless you know otherwise?

No, we see the New Jerusalem mentioned, the heavenly city, the new temple, the body of Christ, the new and better covenant, the Spirit of life, the seeds of promise, not the letter of death. And the transition between old and new was complete in A.D. 70. The old no longer existed after this point. No more city – destroyed and in ruins, no more nation – all dispersed, no more covenant for it could no longer be fulfilled to the letter, no more priesthood because our High Priest is after a different order, no more temple, no more genealogies, no more sacrifices of atonement for the sins of the people.

Acts 13:38-41

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

³⁸ “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. ³⁹ Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. ⁴⁰ Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:

⁴¹ “‘Look, you scoffers,

wonder and perish,

for I am going to do something in your days

that you would never believe,

even if someone told you.’^[a]”

Footnotes:

1. Acts 13:41 Hab. 1:5
   

As God once brought the Babylonians in judgment against His people and His holy city, so now He is going to bring the Romans in judgment of this stiff-necked people and this city. The blood of the saints was calling out, just as it was before Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 586 B.C. (Hab. 1:2), but now with the crucifixion and rejection of Christ they had heaped their sins to the limit. Everywhere we read that the apostles go in the Book of Acts there is Jewish opposition to the message.

There's a fundamental flaw in your whole way of looking at these verses: The coming of God in the Tanakh and the coming of Christ are not based on judgment, but on RESCUE! The focus is not on how God came to the Isra'elites for judgment, but rather, such as in the Exodus, for rescuing them from the oppression of the Egyptians. God did get angry against His people Isra'el for a short time, but the emphasis was in His dealing through Koresh (Cyrus II the Great) king of Persia to set His children free and re-gather them back to the Land of Isra'el.

I don't have a bit of problem with the beginning of the Tribulation, the beginning of the pressure put upon His people for their rejection of His Son, being in the first century. HOWEVER, the RESCUE - the SALVATION - of His people was NOT during the first century, but may be during the twenty-first century. THAT'S the emphasis of the Second Coming, and THAT'S why it was not fulfilled in the first century and to this day has not yet been fulfilled.

[Steve_S]

Hi Gary,

How do you read coming quickly to be 20 plus centuries removed

This can be done. If we consider what Peter revealed to us about the prophets of old.

1Pe 1:11-12 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I am assuming that since Peter understood this principle that he would have done likewise and searched the spirit that was in him for revelation of who he was writing too. I try to keep this in mind when I read the New Testament, knowing that these things may have been written for our day.

Gary

I certainly believe that all Scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, correcting, rebuking and training in righteousness, but I believe the timeline was specifically for them in the first century concerning the last days, the end of the age, the Day of Wrath, the final hour, etc., etc. I never knew the church age had an end. Where in Scripture does it say that it does?

Peter

Hi Peter, It is actually seen in Gods overall plan. The period of the gentiles is the time that Jerusalem was trodden underfoot beginning in AD 70 and ending in 1967. Then there is the finality which can be seen in the full number of the gentiles being come in. Jesus has been staffing his kingdom with rulers over the last two thousand years. He is taking away the authority from the angels and giving it to the sons of God who are yet to be manifested. This will be the final 1000 years of the perfecting of the creation of God. The first 6000 are up sometime before April 26th 2013 when the last gentile who will be given power to rule in the millennium will have been chosen. These things are written all over scripture and it wasn't until I became strictly obedient to that which was revealed unto me that I started to receive the revelation that exposes these truths. I understand if you do not believe and accept what I say as truth but only encourage you as Hebrews 10 tells us to do, to submit unto the works of God and live in them while watching what it is that he is about to do.

Peace in Christ,

Gary

I'm just curious as to what you think will happen on April 26th, 2013, exactly?

[gdemoss]

Hi Gary,

How do you read coming quickly to be 20 plus centuries removed

This can be done. If we consider what Peter revealed to us about the prophets of old.

1Pe 1:11-12 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I am assuming that since Peter understood this principle that he would have done likewise and searched the spirit that was in him for revelation of who he was writing too. I try to keep this in mind when I read the New Testament, knowing that these things may have been written for our day.

Gary

I certainly believe that all Scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, correcting, rebuking and training in righteousness, but I believe the timeline was specifically for them in the first century concerning the last days, the end of the age, the Day of Wrath, the final hour, etc., etc. I never knew the church age had an end. Where in Scripture does it say that it does?

Peter

Hi Peter, It is actually seen in Gods overall plan. The period of the gentiles is the time that Jerusalem was trodden underfoot beginning in AD 70 and ending in 1967. Then there is the finality which can be seen in the full number of the gentiles being come in. Jesus has been staffing his kingdom with rulers over the last two thousand years. He is taking away the authority from the angels and giving it to the sons of God who are yet to be manifested. This will be the final 1000 years of the perfecting of the creation of God. The first 6000 are up sometime before April 26th 2013 when the last gentile who will be given power to rule in the millennium will have been chosen. These things are written all over scripture and it wasn't until I became strictly obedient to that which was revealed unto me that I started to receive the revelation that exposes these truths. I understand if you do not believe and accept what I say as truth but only encourage you as Hebrews 10 tells us to do, to submit unto the works of God and live in them while watching what it is that he is about to do.

Peace in Christ,

Gary

I'm just curious as to what you think will happen on April 26th, 2013, exactly?

Steve, not on but before and it seems my understanding of the date may be slightly off as I later learned that Israel became a nation on May 14th, but my first source spoke of April 26th which was last years anniversary according to the gregorian calendar. The difference in calendars makes it difficult to understand exact dates for me. To make it simple, I expect God to have exhausted his patience with the gentle church and begin the process of cleansing the temple for the final time, the fullness of the gentiles having come in before the nation of Israel turns 65 years old. I have come to this conclusion as I was led through the scriptures and providentially to information about the events of the past century. I have tried to discuss it in detail here at worthy but there is too much opposition to the discussion and threads get locked quickly. While I don't look forward to going through what is coming, I will be glad when it all begins or the dates come and pass without incident and I find that I have just been misled. Either way I will be relieved.

Gary

[Steve_S]

Hi Gary,

How do you read coming quickly to be 20 plus centuries removed

This can be done. If we consider what Peter revealed to us about the prophets of old.

1Pe 1:11-12 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I am assuming that since Peter understood this principle that he would have done likewise and searched the spirit that was in him for revelation of who he was writing too. I try to keep this in mind when I read the New Testament, knowing that these things may have been written for our day.

Gary

I certainly believe that all Scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, correcting, rebuking and training in righteousness, but I believe the timeline was specifically for them in the first century concerning the last days, the end of the age, the Day of Wrath, the final hour, etc., etc. I never knew the church age had an end. Where in Scripture does it say that it does?

Peter

Hi Peter, It is actually seen in Gods overall plan. The period of the gentiles is the time that Jerusalem was trodden underfoot beginning in AD 70 and ending in 1967. Then there is the finality which can be seen in the full number of the gentiles being come in. Jesus has been staffing his kingdom with rulers over the last two thousand years. He is taking away the authority from the angels and giving it to the sons of God who are yet to be manifested. This will be the final 1000 years of the perfecting of the creation of God. The first 6000 are up sometime before April 26th 2013 when the last gentile who will be given power to rule in the millennium will have been chosen. These things are written all over scripture and it wasn't until I became strictly obedient to that which was revealed unto me that I started to receive the revelation that exposes these truths. I understand if you do not believe and accept what I say as truth but only encourage you as Hebrews 10 tells us to do, to submit unto the works of God and live in them while watching what it is that he is about to do.

Peace in Christ,

Gary

I'm just curious as to what you think will happen on April 26th, 2013, exactly?

Steve, not on but before and it seems my understanding of the date may be slightly off as I later learned that Israel became a nation on May 14th, but my first source spoke of April 26th which was last years anniversary according to the gregorian calendar. The difference in calendars makes it difficult to understand exact dates for me. To make it simple, I expect God to have exhausted his patience with the gentle church and begin the process of cleansing the temple for the final time, the fullness of the gentiles having come in before the nation of Israel turns 65 years old. I have come to this conclusion as I was led through the scriptures and providentially to information about the events of the past century. I have tried to discuss it in detail here at worthy but there is too much opposition to the discussion and threads get locked quickly. While I don't look forward to going through what is coming, I will be glad when it all begins or the dates come and pass without incident and I find that I have just been misled. Either way I will be relieved.

Gary

Are you speaking of feeling that you've been led by the Spirit on this or are you speaking of study with other people?

[gdemoss]

Hi Gary,

How do you read coming quickly to be 20 plus centuries removed

This can be done. If we consider what Peter revealed to us about the prophets of old.

1Pe 1:11-12 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I am assuming that since Peter understood this principle that he would have done likewise and searched the spirit that was in him for revelation of who he was writing too. I try to keep this in mind when I read the New Testament, knowing that these things may have been written for our day.

Gary

I certainly believe that all Scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, correcting, rebuking and training in righteousness, but I believe the timeline was specifically for them in the first century concerning the last days, the end of the age, the Day of Wrath, the final hour, etc., etc. I never knew the church age had an end. Where in Scripture does it say that it does?

Peter

Hi Peter, It is actually seen in Gods overall plan. The period of the gentiles is the time that Jerusalem was trodden underfoot beginning in AD 70 and ending in 1967. Then there is the finality which can be seen in the full number of the gentiles being come in. Jesus has been staffing his kingdom with rulers over the last two thousand years. He is taking away the authority from the angels and giving it to the sons of God who are yet to be manifested. This will be the final 1000 years of the perfecting of the creation of God. The first 6000 are up sometime before April 26th 2013 when the last gentile who will be given power to rule in the millennium will have been chosen. These things are written all over scripture and it wasn't until I became strictly obedient to that which was revealed unto me that I started to receive the revelation that exposes these truths. I understand if you do not believe and accept what I say as truth but only encourage you as Hebrews 10 tells us to do, to submit unto the works of God and live in them while watching what it is that he is about to do.

Peace in Christ,

Gary

I'm just curious as to what you think will happen on April 26th, 2013, exactly?

Steve, not on but before and it seems my understanding of the date may be slightly off as I later learned that Israel became a nation on May 14th, but my first source spoke of April 26th which was last years anniversary according to the gregorian calendar. The difference in calendars makes it difficult to understand exact dates for me. To make it simple, I expect God to have exhausted his patience with the gentle church and begin the process of cleansing the temple for the final time, the fullness of the gentiles having come in before the nation of Israel turns 65 years old. I have come to this conclusion as I was led through the scriptures and providentially to information about the events of the past century. I have tried to discuss it in detail here at worthy but there is too much opposition to the discussion and threads get locked quickly. While I don't look forward to going through what is coming, I will be glad when it all begins or the dates come and pass without incident and I find that I have just been misled. Either way I will be relieved.

Gary

Are you speaking of feeling that you've been led by the Spirit on this or are you speaking of study with other people?

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell.

Gary

[Steve_S]

Hi Gary,

How do you read coming quickly to be 20 plus centuries removed

This can be done. If we consider what Peter revealed to us about the prophets of old.

1Pe 1:11-12 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I am assuming that since Peter understood this principle that he would have done likewise and searched the spirit that was in him for revelation of who he was writing too. I try to keep this in mind when I read the New Testament, knowing that these things may have been written for our day.

Gary

I certainly believe that all Scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, correcting, rebuking and training in righteousness, but I believe the timeline was specifically for them in the first century concerning the last days, the end of the age, the Day of Wrath, the final hour, etc., etc. I never knew the church age had an end. Where in Scripture does it say that it does?

Peter

Hi Peter, It is actually seen in Gods overall plan. The period of the gentiles is the time that Jerusalem was trodden underfoot beginning in AD 70 and ending in 1967. Then there is the finality which can be seen in the full number of the gentiles being come in. Jesus has been staffing his kingdom with rulers over the last two thousand years. He is taking away the authority from the angels and giving it to the sons of God who are yet to be manifested. This will be the final 1000 years of the perfecting of the creation of God. The first 6000 are up sometime before April 26th 2013 when the last gentile who will be given power to rule in the millennium will have been chosen. These things are written all over scripture and it wasn't until I became strictly obedient to that which was revealed unto me that I started to receive the revelation that exposes these truths. I understand if you do not believe and accept what I say as truth but only encourage you as Hebrews 10 tells us to do, to submit unto the works of God and live in them while watching what it is that he is about to do.

Peace in Christ,

Gary

I'm just curious as to what you think will happen on April 26th, 2013, exactly?

Steve, not on but before and it seems my understanding of the date may be slightly off as I later learned that Israel became a nation on May 14th, but my first source spoke of April 26th which was last years anniversary according to the gregorian calendar. The difference in calendars makes it difficult to understand exact dates for me. To make it simple, I expect God to have exhausted his patience with the gentle church and begin the process of cleansing the temple for the final time, the fullness of the gentiles having come in before the nation of Israel turns 65 years old. I have come to this conclusion as I was led through the scriptures and providentially to information about the events of the past century. I have tried to discuss it in detail here at worthy but there is too much opposition to the discussion and threads get locked quickly. While I don't look forward to going through what is coming, I will be glad when it all begins or the dates come and pass without incident and I find that I have just been misled. Either way I will be relieved.

Gary

Are you speaking of feeling that you've been led by the Spirit on this or are you speaking of study with other people?

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell.

Gary

Ah, well. It was just a latent curiosity after I came across it, not seeking an argument or debate.

[gdemoss]

Ah, well. It was just a latent curiosity after I came across it, not seeking an argument or debate.

Thanks Steve, it does bring about much problems when discussed. There's that little issue of 'if we all have the Holy Spirit, then why isn't he showing this to everyone?'. And that I completely understand. While I have spoken to others who have understood these things to be true, they are far and few in between.

Gary

[PGA]

Hi Roy,

There's a fundamental flaw in your whole way of looking at these verses: The coming of God in the Tanakh and the coming of Christ are not based on judgment, but on RESCUE! The focus is not on how God came to the Isra'elites for judgment, but rather, such as in the Exodus, for rescuing them from the oppression of the Egyptians. God did get angry against His people Isra'el for a short time, but the emphasis was in His dealing through Koresh (Cyrus II the Great) king of Persia to set His children free and re-gather them back to the Land of Isra'el. -Roy

So you say. The covenant that was entered into promised both blessings and curses (Deut. 4, 6, 8, 28,29,32, etc). Throughout the OT we see this 'stiff-necked' people, we see God sending prophets to them in warning. Finally God sends His Son in the fullness of time and they reject their Messiah. He brings salvation or rescue to those who are waiting, to the elect, the remnant, to those who have ears to hear, eyes to see and a heart to understand, but judgment on the rest - the great and terrible day of the Lord for breaking the covenant. Constantly the warning goes out to 'this generation' that Jesus came to, the warning to flee from the coming wrath. As Jesus goes through the cities and towns He not only brings the good news of salvation and a better covenant, but the warning of judgment (Matt. 10:15 for instance). Yes, Jesus came to save His people, but the Father also appointed all judgment to the Son (John 5:22).

I don't have a bit of problem with the beginning of the Tribulation, the beginning of the pressure put upon His people for their rejection of His Son, being in the first century. HOWEVER, the RESCUE - the SALVATION - of His people was NOT during the first century, but may be during the twenty-first century. THAT'S the emphasis of the Second Coming, and THAT'S why it was not fulfilled in the first century and to this day has not yet been fulfilled. -Roy

When you use the word 'His people' what do you mean? He came to His own but His own did not receive Him yet to all who received Him

He gave the right to become children of God - children not born of the flesh but born of the Spirit, children who worship in spirit and in truth.

The Book of revelation is about the judgment of Israel of the Old Covenant. That 'great city' spoken of is Jerusalem. How can it be any other? What other city is guilty of persecuting and killing the prophets and apostles? Does Jesus not make this plain enough in the gospels?

Luke 13:33-35

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

33 In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Matthew 23:34-38

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

How does this not speak to you of judgment upon this generation, the great and terrible day of the Lord? If you read Revelation 17-19 the great city in it is guilty of killing these same prophets and apostles. So are you suggesting Babylon the Great, the great city is not Jerusalem, it is Jerusalem but it is not in the generation that Jesus said judgment would come upon them or something completely different that you would be responsible for justifying from Scripture?

Peter