Jump to content
IGNORED

Was AD 70 the Parousia?


Bold Believer

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  210
  • Content Per Day:  0.05
  • Reputation:   8
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  10/12/2011
  • Status:  Offline

Hi Gary,

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell. -Gary

I'm not familiar with this prophecy of April 26th, but Gary, what happens if this does not take place next year, or even five years from now? Would you still believe that it was Spirit led? I say this because of all the times I have been led and led others to think that we were living in the last days and Jesus was coming soon. I think of all the times in the past thirty years or so in which prophecy experts have predicted the 2nd Coming or the end times in their date setting and they have been wrong - JVI, Harold Camping, Grant, Jeffereys, Hal Lindsey, John Haggie, and a slew of others. They keep changing their dates once the date expires so as not to lose face. Their credibility has been undermined and it makes many seekers question whether Christianity is true, which of course it is, but it gives the church a bad name. On an Inner Court debate it is not critical; we learn from each other and we can consider the biblical support for our positions, but to an unbeliever it gives them fuel in which to doubt further.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Servant
  • Followers:  25
  • Topic Count:  275
  • Topics Per Day:  0.05
  • Content Count:  5,208
  • Content Per Day:  1.00
  • Reputation:   1,893
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/02/2010
  • Status:  Offline

Hi Gary,

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell. -Gary

I'm not familiar with this prophecy of April 26th, but Gary, what happens if this does not take place next year, or even five years from now? Would you still believe that it was Spirit led? I say this because of all the times I have been led and led others to think that we were living in the last days and Jesus was coming soon. I think of all the times in the past thirty years or so in which prophecy experts have predicted the 2nd Coming or the end times in their date setting and they have been wrong - JVI, Harold Camping, Grant, Jeffereys, Hal Lindsey, John Haggie, and a slew of others. They keep changing their dates once the date expires so as not to lose face. Their credibility has been undermined and it makes many seekers question whether Christianity is true, which of course it is, but it gives the church a bad name. On an Inner Court debate it is not critical; we learn from each other and we can consider the biblical support for our positions, but to an unbeliever it gives them fuel in which to doubt further.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Peter

It's very simple. We aren't supposed to try to predict it. God didn't give it to John and Jesus said no man will know the day or the hour. Anytime someone comes out with a date I become very, very skeptical for that reason. The list of names you posted also contains a lot of televangelists. The end of the world is happening soon, give me money! should send up red flags for anyone. As far as whether or not they give the church a bad name, there's not a thing you or I can do about that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  210
  • Content Per Day:  0.05
  • Reputation:   8
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  10/12/2011
  • Status:  Offline

Hi Gary,

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell. -Gary

I'm not familiar with this prophecy of April 26th, but Gary, what happens if this does not take place next year, or even five years from now? Would you still believe that it was Spirit led? I say this because of all the times I have been led and led others to think that we were living in the last days and Jesus was coming soon. I think of all the times in the past thirty years or so in which prophecy experts have predicted the 2nd Coming or the end times in their date setting and they have been wrong - JVI, Harold Camping, Grant, Jeffereys, Hal Lindsey, John Haggie, and a slew of others. They keep changing their dates once the date expires so as not to lose face. Their credibility has been undermined and it makes many seekers question whether Christianity is true, which of course it is, but it gives the church a bad name. On an Inner Court debate it is not critical; we learn from each other and we can consider the biblical support for our positions, but to an unbeliever it gives them fuel in which to doubt further.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Peter

It's very simple. We aren't supposed to try to predict it. God didn't give it to John and Jesus said no man will know the day or the hour. Anytime someone comes out with a date I become very, very skeptical for that reason. The list of names you posted also contains a lot of televangelists. The end of the world is happening soon, give me money! should send up red flags for anyone. As far as whether or not they give the church a bad name, there's not a thing you or I can do about that.

OK, thanks, but what is significant about April 26th?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Servant
  • Followers:  25
  • Topic Count:  275
  • Topics Per Day:  0.05
  • Content Count:  5,208
  • Content Per Day:  1.00
  • Reputation:   1,893
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/02/2010
  • Status:  Offline

Hi Gary,

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell. -Gary

I'm not familiar with this prophecy of April 26th, but Gary, what happens if this does not take place next year, or even five years from now? Would you still believe that it was Spirit led? I say this because of all the times I have been led and led others to think that we were living in the last days and Jesus was coming soon. I think of all the times in the past thirty years or so in which prophecy experts have predicted the 2nd Coming or the end times in their date setting and they have been wrong - JVI, Harold Camping, Grant, Jeffereys, Hal Lindsey, John Haggie, and a slew of others. They keep changing their dates once the date expires so as not to lose face. Their credibility has been undermined and it makes many seekers question whether Christianity is true, which of course it is, but it gives the church a bad name. On an Inner Court debate it is not critical; we learn from each other and we can consider the biblical support for our positions, but to an unbeliever it gives them fuel in which to doubt further.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Peter

It's very simple. We aren't supposed to try to predict it. God didn't give it to John and Jesus said no man will know the day or the hour. Anytime someone comes out with a date I become very, very skeptical for that reason. The list of names you posted also contains a lot of televangelists. The end of the world is happening soon, give me money! should send up red flags for anyone. As far as whether or not they give the church a bad name, there's not a thing you or I can do about that.

OK, thanks, but what is significant about April 26th?

I don't know, it's not my prophecy lol, it's GDE's. I don't think we can or will know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  59
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  4,402
  • Content Per Day:  0.99
  • Reputation:   2,154
  • Days Won:  28
  • Joined:  02/10/2012
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  04/26/1971

Hi Gary,

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell. -Gary

I'm not familiar with this prophecy of April 26th, but Gary, what happens if this does not take place next year, or even five years from now? Would you still believe that it was Spirit led? I say this because of all the times I have been led and led others to think that we were living in the last days and Jesus was coming soon. I think of all the times in the past thirty years or so in which prophecy experts have predicted the 2nd Coming or the end times in their date setting and they have been wrong - JVI, Harold Camping, Grant, Jeffereys, Hal Lindsey, John Haggie, and a slew of others. They keep changing their dates once the date expires so as not to lose face. Their credibility has been undermined and it makes many seekers question whether Christianity is true, which of course it is, but it gives the church a bad name. On an Inner Court debate it is not critical; we learn from each other and we can consider the biblical support for our positions, but to an unbeliever it gives them fuel in which to doubt further.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Peter

Peter, thanks for the inquiry. I have already stated that if what I am being led to believe does not come to pass I will still believe that it was spirit led but just not the right spirit. The significance of the date is the 65th birthday of the nation of Israel post AD 70 destruction. It is the last possible date for the removal of Gods protective hand upon the gentile church. I am making claim that it is a major fulfillment of the Isaiah 7 prophecy concerning the one who would try to destroy Judah and fail. This is what I have been led to believe. It looks as if April 12-13, 2003 is actually the 65th birthday.

Gary

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  210
  • Content Per Day:  0.05
  • Reputation:   8
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  10/12/2011
  • Status:  Offline

Hi Gary,

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell. -Gary

I'm not familiar with this prophecy of April 26th, but Gary, what happens if this does not take place next year, or even five years from now? Would you still believe that it was Spirit led? I say this because of all the times I have been led and led others to think that we were living in the last days and Jesus was coming soon. I think of all the times in the past thirty years or so in which prophecy experts have predicted the 2nd Coming or the end times in their date setting and they have been wrong - JVI, Harold Camping, Grant, Jeffereys, Hal Lindsey, John Haggie, and a slew of others. They keep changing their dates once the date expires so as not to lose face. Their credibility has been undermined and it makes many seekers question whether Christianity is true, which of course it is, but it gives the church a bad name. On an Inner Court debate it is not critical; we learn from each other and we can consider the biblical support for our positions, but to an unbeliever it gives them fuel in which to doubt further.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Peter

Peter, thanks for the inquiry. I have already stated that if what I am being led to believe does not come to pass I will still believe that it was spirit led but just not the right spirit. The significance of the date is the 65th birthday of the nation of Israel post AD 70 destruction. It is the last possible date for the removal of Gods protective hand upon the gentile church. I am making claim that it is a major fulfillment of the Isaiah 7 prophecy concerning the one who would try to destroy Judah and fail. This is what I have been led to believe. It looks as if April 12-13, 2003 is actually the 65th birthday.

Gary

Thanks, I'm going to think about it and get back to you later once I check out Isaiah 7.

Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  59
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  4,402
  • Content Per Day:  0.99
  • Reputation:   2,154
  • Days Won:  28
  • Joined:  02/10/2012
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  04/26/1971

Hi Gary,

It is spirit led Steve, and ultimately though I believe it to be the Holy Spirit, only time will tell. -Gary

I'm not familiar with this prophecy of April 26th, but Gary, what happens if this does not take place next year, or even five years from now? Would you still believe that it was Spirit led? I say this because of all the times I have been led and led others to think that we were living in the last days and Jesus was coming soon. I think of all the times in the past thirty years or so in which prophecy experts have predicted the 2nd Coming or the end times in their date setting and they have been wrong - JVI, Harold Camping, Grant, Jeffereys, Hal Lindsey, John Haggie, and a slew of others. They keep changing their dates once the date expires so as not to lose face. Their credibility has been undermined and it makes many seekers question whether Christianity is true, which of course it is, but it gives the church a bad name. On an Inner Court debate it is not critical; we learn from each other and we can consider the biblical support for our positions, but to an unbeliever it gives them fuel in which to doubt further.

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

Peter

Peter, thanks for the inquiry. I have already stated that if what I am being led to believe does not come to pass I will still believe that it was spirit led but just not the right spirit. The significance of the date is the 65th birthday of the nation of Israel post AD 70 destruction. It is the last possible date for the removal of Gods protective hand upon the gentile church. I am making claim that it is a major fulfillment of the Isaiah 7 prophecy concerning the one who would try to destroy Judah and fail. This is what I have been led to believe. It looks as if April 12-13, 2003 is actually the 65th birthday.

Gary

Thanks, I'm going to think about it and get back to you later once I check out Isaiah 7.

Peter

Peter, I would suggest you also consider 2 Kings 17, with an understanding of the foreshadowing of a people who were not a people that were given one priest so that they might know the one true God that inhabited the land of Samaria in the stead of the Northern kingdom of Israel. Consider that which is said of their end and compare to the modern gentile church as a whole, and knowing that God never changes, what is the logical conclusion for them that fear God but also serve idols?

2Ki 17:41 So these nations feared the LORD, and served their graven images, both their children, and their children's children: as did their fathers, so do they unto this day.

I can put the pieces of the puzzle together as they are given unto me for anyone but there is one basic problem that I am faced with.

Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Not to mention Gods people, when disobedient, love to stone the prophets.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:

A man who God chooses to send may not have a bright future, in this world anyway.

I would be happy to explain anything that you would like to know as God only give unto us that which we are to use to benefit others with. My only goal is to help others fear God and seek to obey every precept of scripture in hope of the salvation which is to be revealed in the end. I offer myself available by telephone or in person meetings to any and all who truly seek to understand that which God has freely given unto me. I am your servant.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  210
  • Content Per Day:  0.05
  • Reputation:   8
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  10/12/2011
  • Status:  Offline

Hi Gary,

Consider that which is said of their end and compare to the modern gentile church as a whole, and knowing that God never changes, what is the logical conclusion for them that fear God but also serve idols? -Gary[

I am unfamiliar with an end of the church age? Jesus said that He would build His church and the gates of Hades would not prevail against it. The kingdom age is an eternal age. The kingdom of God is also the kingdom of heaven. The two are used interchangeably. Again I would point you to Acts 2:29-36. One of David's descendants is on the throne. He is both Lord and Christ!

Acts 2:29-36

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

29 “Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:

“Sit at my right hand

35 until I make your enemies

a footstool for your feet.”’[b]

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.

What God promised to David He delivered in Christ. When Christ rose He was put on David's throne, thus He received a kingdom and He is Lord and Christ. He waited until A.D. 70 for His enemies to be made His footstool. In the OT and NT the Jews are called enemies of God. God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him a name that is above every name. It is past tense; it has happened - He is Lord, He has received what He had before He became man and subjected Himself to the Father, that God may be all in all.

There is no mention of a fifth kingdom in Daniel. That is something that is read into the text. At the end of the fourth kingdom the Lord would set up His eternal kingdom.

Daniel 2:40

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others.

It is during this fourth kingdom that the God of heaven sets up His kingdom that will never be destroyed.

Daniel 9:24-27

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

24 Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

25 “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Jesus was the one who would destroy the city by the use of the Roman armies (Luke 13:35; Acts 6:14). This happened in A.D. 70.

Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  210
  • Content Per Day:  0.05
  • Reputation:   8
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  10/12/2011
  • Status:  Offline

I am unfamiliar with an end of the church age?

Peter

End of the Age , end of the church age is what Jesus said in reference to his return to earth to set up his kingdom on earth

We are now in the church Age , Jesus will be ruler of the earth when he sets up His Kingdom

Matthew

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Jesus returns to the same place as where he ascended into heaven , in a manner like he went up he will come back , he ascended up into the clouds and he will return coming down from the clouds ,but when he returns it will be seen by everyone as lighting is seen from the east to the west , everyone on earth will know that Jesus has come ,

Acts

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Hi Danielzk,

I find some problems with your interpretation. The problem is that when Jesus discussed His coming with the disciples and the end of the age He was speaking of the end of the Jewish age, the old covenant, not the church age. Daniel 2, 9, 12 speak of of Daniels people and the end of their covenant age. Did Jesus put an end to sin and atone for wickedness with His atonement? (Daniel 9:24) Did He bring in an everlasting righteousness with His sacrifice? If not then what is the righteousness that you as a Christian are clothed with? Did He save His people from their sins, all those appointed and had their names written in the book? Was the power of the holy people broken in A.D. 70? (Daniel 12:7) If it was not then how is the old covenant still practiced today without a temple, priesthood or animal sacrifices? Where did Jesus ever say that He would bring an end to the church - His body of believers?

Jesus also said that the gospel would be preached in all the world and then the end would come. This is what Scripture teaches, that it was preached to all the known world of that time. (Colossians 1:6, 23; Acts 2:5; Romans 10:18) Paul confirms that the end of the ages has come. (1 Corinthians 10:11) Throughout the NT there is a comparison between the new and old covenants. You find it in every epistle and book. These people were expecting something to happen in their generation. Jesus made it plain throughout His ministry that judgment was coming upon their generation. That judgment was issued and it brought in a better covenant. The old had to disappear so that people were not trying to live under the old. From A.D. 30 or so until A.D. 70 the two existed side by side. (Hebrews 8:13; 7:11-12, 18, 23-28; 8:6-12 - please read)

Also, please keep in mind Daniel 9:24 when you read the following:

Hebrews 9:11-28

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

The Blood of Christ

11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact,the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Jesus said before He gave up His Spirit that 'It is finished.' It is a past act. He has appeared, in heaven, at the end of the ages to do away with sin. In A.D. 70 He came to put an end to the Jewish age, the old covenant, the animal sacrifice, the Levitical priesthood. If you think not then where are the sacrifices for sin offered by the Jews? (Matthew 5:17-18) These are tremendous hurdles that you have to explain away. Can you do it without turning a blind eye to what Scripture says?

The problem during the first century was that Christ was the end of the law and yet the old and new were both together during the transition and many wanted to incorporate the two.

Romans 10:4

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Galatians 3:23-25

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Romans 7:1-6

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

An Illustration From Marriage

7 Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8:1-5

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Life Through the Spirit

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

I think that when the curtain was torn it signified not only that the way was opened for man to be reconciled with God but also that God had left that earthly temple, never to return. After this we see that the church, the called out body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, a temple not built by human hands in which God now resides, the new temple in which God resides with man. We as the body of believer are His temple on earth where His presence abides. The problem with the early church was that it was persecuted by the old covenant Jews and was so against these new covenant believers that God really got their attention when He no longer made it possible for them to continue with the old covenant - He bought it to an end; the world, the heavens and earth that they knew was no longer, their dispensation, their covenant was gone.

Acts 1:9-11 is still a puzzle to me. I don't know how to explain it except to say that if this is the 'second coming' then other portions of Scripture that speak of this coming do not match this coming. For instance, Jesus does not come in like manner. There is no mention of Jesus' coming with thousands upon thousands of His angels or on a white horse and this going was before the disciples and a small body of believers, totaling about 120 (Acts 1:15), not a worldview event. These were men of Galilee, the apostles and believers who were instructed that He would come in like manner as they had seen Him go. His appearance at the ascension is not like the appearance of His coming in glory where people fall at His feet in fear and awe. Then there are the time statements in the passage that speaks to the first century believers. They were also looking for Him to 'restore the kingdom of Israel.' But Paul makes it plain that not all who are Israel are the true Israel.

Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  210
  • Content Per Day:  0.05
  • Reputation:   8
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  10/12/2011
  • Status:  Offline

Hi Danielzk,

Where do I begin? Sorry, this is going to be long. I will break it into different posts over the next few days.

I am not sure how to break this to you but the preterits view is simply invalid , it simply has so many flaws and that is why these scriptures are hard for you to understand , because the teaching you follow is not in alignment with scripture

The statements you place along with the scriptures are not even a match -Danielzk

That is not something you have demonstrated with Scripture. Jesus came to His own - Israel of the old covenant - the people God made a covenant with and what the OT primarily concerns itself with. Yet His own did not receive Him. Why did Jesus come? He came to fulfill all Scripture written about Him and to bring in the everlasting covenant and save His people - the remnant, those who are true Israel, both Jews and Gentiles. Scripture demonstrates this. Now there is neither Jew nor Gentile, believers are all one in Christ. All who receive Him He gave the right to become children of God, not just the Jews!

the Daniel 24 is not at all about Jesus ,, -Danielzk

How can you say this. It is so concerned with Jesus. Try reading a commentary or two or even a dozen or just reason it out with the words given by God.

Daniel 9:24

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[a] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[b] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.[c]

Footnotes:

  1. Daniel 9:24 Or ‘weeks’; also in verses 25 and 26
  2. Daniel 9:24 Or restrain
  3. Daniel 9:24 Or Most Holy Place; or most holy One

Who else can put an end to sin, atone for wickedness, bring in an everlasting righteousness and anoint the Most Holy or be anointed the Holy One?

this refers to Daniels 70th Week prophecy where a man comes on the world scene as a man of peace and confirms a covenant with Israel and all of her enemies and declares a peace treaty that assures Israel to have peace & security for a period of 7 years(1week) and in the middle of that week 3.5 years he goes into the temple that has been built (which is pending now) and puts an end to the animal sacrifices and sits upon the throne that was meant for Christ and declares that he is god , then he demands that every one worship him and he starts killing Jews in Judea , this is the event that is known as "the abomination that makes desolate"(Daniel 9:27)(Matthew 24:15 )( it has not yet happened ), at this time he and the false prophet are a team and call fire down from heaven to convince the people that he is god ,,this is the man called ,"the man of sin" or the "son of perdition" or the antichrist -Danielzk

Daniels 70 weeks of years begins with the decree to rebuild the city/temple and ends with the cutting off of the Righteous One [i.e., Jesus' crucifixion] and the judgment that comes on the city, temple and these people. Ezra left Babylon in 457 B.C. to return to Jerusalem and restore God's house. Jesus was cut of or crucified in A.D. 30 or there about. You are trying to stretch that prophecy way into the future beyond what Scripture teaches. The 'Anointed One' refers to the Lord Jesus Christ, not the anti-Christ/man of sin. The city and the temple were rebuilt in troubled times when Herod finished restoring the temple and city. The Jews were in a period of war with the Romans when the city and temple were destroyed in A.D. 70. Josephus writes about the Jewish Wars and about the siege of Jerusalem that resulted in its destruction (He uses terminology that is found in the Bible). In Luke 21:20 desolation comes through the hands of the Romans as decreed by God. (Daniel 9:26) These are the desolation's that have been decreed by God. Those in Judea are told to flee by Jesus when they see these things coming (The Christians fled to Pelle before this destruction). Brothers fight against brothers (talk about tribulation - Matthew 10:21-23 with Matthew 24:9-14) in that there were three factions of Jews that Josephus mentions that divide the city into three sections and fought among themselves as well as against the Romans.

I think that a distinction can be made between two rulers, the Anointed One and the ruler whose people destroy the city. One refers to our Lord and the other to the Romans and their ruler. I have heard some Peterist's who argue that both references or rulers are in reference to God, but I don't necessarily see it that way. Jesus confirmed His new covenant with many in the shedding of His blood on the cross during His three and a half years of ministry, but in my mind it is something I'm still trying to sort out in how it all relates. The Roman ruler did desecrate the temple area. and the city. Great tribulation came upon the city, such as they had never known as a nation and will never know again as a nation for the Old Covenant peoples were dispersed and the old covenant ceased with this fall.

But to look upon this prophecy as both rulers refering to God's messengers - the Lord Jesus and the Roman armies and their ruler - requires that the covenant maker is God who is making the New Covenant in Christ and in the middle of that covenant (3 1/2 years) Jesus is cut off, making an end to sacrifice and offering by His one sacrifice and then God brings the Roman armies against the city which in turn sets up the abomination of desolation (the last 3 1/2 years) that results in/causes the end of the old covenant completely with the final destruction of the physical temple and destruction of the city and dispersion of the old covenant people. In the mean time, one generation lives to see the completion.

But concerning Matthew 24:15-22/Luke 21:20-24 and the term 'desolations' it can be considered that the whole area of Jerusalem, the holy city, the city that housed God's name (that the Romans surrounded), had been desecrated, and desolation happened by the Romans, especially when they entered the temple area as recorded by Josephus on more that one occasion during the period after Jesus ascended to heaven (Before 66, in A.D. 66 and 70). In A.D. 70 Titus actually desecrated the temple.

Daniel 9:25-27

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

25 “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree[a] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[b] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.[c]The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.[d] In the middle of the ‘seven’[e]he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[f][g]

Footnotes:

  1. Daniel 9:25 Or word
  2. Daniel 9:25 Or an anointed one; also in verse 26
  3. Daniel 9:26 Or off and will have no one; or off, but not for himself
  4. Daniel 9:27 Or ‘week’
  5. Daniel 9:27 Or ‘week’
  6. Daniel 9:27 Or it
  7. Daniel 9:27 Or And one who causes desolation will come upon the pinnacle of the abominable temple, until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated city

The similarities between Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 are many. There are also many similarities between Revelation and Daniel/Matthew that can be pointed out at another time.

I have heard all the preterist views of saying that Nero was the antichist and all that but it is not true -Danielzk

I believe he was one of the anti-Christ's/ one of the beasts mentioned in Revelation 13 and certainly fits the title of 'the Beast' as he was known by some in the first century. His name also fits the number of the beast - 666. Persecution/tribulation of Christian's by the Roman's started during the reign of Nero. Before this the Jews were their main source of persecution, as noted in so many of the epistles. Nero, as emperor being the first beast and Vespitan or Titus as the second beast who is given authority by the first and who is sent by Nero, the first beast, to this region of the world to quell the Jewish uprisings. All these comments can be expanded on not only from the Bible but also from history to give more reason to believe that Nero is referenced.

But I still find it hard to understand how you can say that Daniel 9:24 does not refer to the Messiah.

More later.

Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...