Was AD 70 the Parousia?

[PGA]

Peter

The reason i told you that there is no point in discussing this is exactly what you have shown to be doing since the beginning of this you simply refuse to acknowledge any & all real life events that in any way indicate your misunderstanding even though evidence have been presented on many occasions IF you correctly interpret scriptureyou will find that it BOLDLY states that Jesus WILL RETURN as of yet thereis NO evidence of it happening but when it does it will be the GREATEST EVENT IN HISTORY if it had happened it would be verified by Jesus being on earth it will be real and when Jesus returns He will be here to stay forever ,the preterist view is false invalid and not true We are still in the Church Age and will be until Jesus returns as EVERYTHING that I have shown you that is true and verifiably true ,you intentionally ignore it only because you will not admit you cannot prove it wrong ,show me in history where Jesus has returned I mean anywhere outside your misinterpretation of scripture ,,,the point I have made since the beginning is that Jesus will return soon and has not yet returned,,you miss that point in every post

Hi Danielzk,

For me to provide historical quotes and biblical quotes that support A.D. 70 will take lots of time, but both support A.D. 70 and I'm willing to provide more. I can document much of the Olivet Discourse as a past event from both sources and I have made note of quotes from the writings of Josephus as well as pointed out in previous posts that the Bible talks in terms of something that was to take place during the lives of the 1st century believers. Much of what I have thus documented has been ignored, but I have tried my best to answer most of the criticisms to date.

You are assuming that what you believe is correct with the statement,

"IF you correctly interpret scriptureyou will find that it BOLDLY states that Jesus WILL RETURN as of yet thereis NO evidence of it happening"

You are begging the question. You believe that Babylon is Europe where clearly the Book of Revelation reveals it was where the blood of the martyrs and saints was shed. The Lord Jesus said that all the righteous blood from Abel to Zechariah was being credited to that generation in Jerusalem. IMO, to supply current events to the Bible as being or about to be fulfilled is to ignore what the Scriptures actually are saying and read into them something the writers do not say. I believe that you are reading between the lines something that is not there, just like many people have through the ages. If you are right then according to your outlook we should expect to see these prophecies come to pass in our lifetime, is that correct? JVI has been doing this (reading into the news) since the 1980's when I used to watch his show every week. When what he said did not happen he shifted the dates, and then shifted them again. I still have his Book of Revelation tapes (in my library) from way back and he was wrong. This can be documented with many prophecy experts throughout the ages.

God heard the cry of His prophets and saints long ago and acted on the great city which is figuratively called Babylon, and in the generation of those living in the 1st century.

Revelation 6:10-11

New International Version (NIV)

¹⁰ They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” ¹¹ Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Revelation 18:20

New International Version (NIV)

²⁰ “Rejoice over her, you heavens!

Rejoice, you people of God!

Rejoice, apostles and prophets!

For God has judged her

with the judgment she imposed on you.”

Revelation 18:24

New International Version (NIV)

²⁴ In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,

of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Matthew 23:30-38

New International Version (NIV)

³⁰ And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ ³¹ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. ³² Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

³³ “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? ³⁴ Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. ³⁵ And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. ³⁶ Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.³⁷ “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. ³⁸ Look, your house is left to you desolate.

You are trying to read twenty centuries later into these verses but what do they SAY? Can God say what He means? Do words have meaning in context? If not then why believe anything? Does Scripture back what you believe?

Peter

[PGA]

Hi Danielzk,

Here are some time passages in the Bible that speak of 1st century fulfillment. If you would like to argue against any of these as referring to primarily 1st century believers then let us examine them more fully in the light of Scripture. BTW, this is the tip of the iceberg.

http://www.preteristcentral.com/Why%20I%20am%20a%20Preterist.html

http://www.preteristcentral.com/Why%20I%20am%20a%20Preterist,%20Part%20II.html

http://www.preteristcentral.com/Why%20I%20am%20a%20Preterist,%20Part%20III.html

You need to familiarize yourself with these proofs before you make claims about a future coming, IMO. I understand however if you choose not to examine this literature for I was once in a position similar to yours (I held a futurist position) .

Peter

[Montana Marv]

Peter

Where is Christ's Second Coming. If Christ Came; Why did Rome continue to rule till about 350 AD. You serve a weak Jesus Christ. Satan still influences individuals. A Secret Second Coming which no one saw. 1,000 years is 1,000 years. Jesus Christ setting His feet on the Mt. of Olives is what Scripture says. Your three sources were very weak indeed. Did Jesus really wash the Disciples feet, or was this an allegory that Christians must be clean. Did Christ really assend up into Heaven. Is there a Heaven. Is there a Lake of Fire as Scripture says. The Perterest position is totally ridiculous. The manufactuers of that beleif are not even in the ballpark. Christ becomes a weak God, Satan still abounds.

There are too many "On that Day" in Zech that put a cabush on what you are peddling.

The perterst delves in to much story telling, which takes away from what is really being said.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, everyone.

I'm going to give this to you all once again:

Believing that God inspired the entire Bible and that the Bible therefore is true, I also believe that Matthew's, Mark's, and Luke's accounts must all be true. It is not a competition between the authors, nor are we to ask who is right and who is wrong. The Gospel accounts are matters of perspective. While one man may have focused upon a certain piece of information, another may focus upon something else. Thus, each tells the story of Yeshua’s life as best as he can remember it from his vantage point. Who is right? I trust God to set the matter straight, and I believe that He perfectly preserved what the authors recorded because out of all the accounts floating around in the first century, these are the accurate accounts that God preserved. Therefore, they are all right, and God has left it up to us to put the pieces together with the premise that all four records are accurate, and thus we must harmonize them to find a more objective account. The following is a harmony of Yeshua's discourse on the second coming. John was silent about this account; therefore, we will only use the three “synoptic Gospels,” Matthew, Mark and Luke. As indicated by the diagram shown above, combinations of Matthew and Mark will be shown in orange since red and yellow (gold) will combine to give one orange. Combinations of Matthew and Luke will be shown in purple since red and blue will combine to give one purple, and combinations of Mark and Luke will be shown in green since yellow (gold) and blue make green. If all three Gospels are identical, the combination color will be brown since all three primary pigments, red, yellow (gold), and blue, will combine to give one brown. If a word must be supplied to complete a thought, that word will be given the default color of black. I have done such a harmony before using the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible. This time, I am using the Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) by David H. Stern. I begin on the next page:

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24¹13¹As Yeshua came out of and left the Temple and was going away, his talmidim came and called his attention to its buildings. One of the talmidim said to him, “Look, Rabbi! What huge stones! What magnificent buildings!” ²But 21⁵As some people were remarking about the Temple, how beautiful its stonework and memorial decorations were,Yeshua answered them, and said to him, ²“You see all these great buildings? Yes! I tell you, ⁶The time is coming when what you see here, they will be totally destroyed—not a single stone will be left standing!”

³As and when he was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the Temple, the talmidim, Kefa, Ya’acov, Yochanan and Andros came to him and asked him privately, ⁷“Rabbi, if this is so, ⁴tell us, when will these things happen? when will these events take place? And what sign will show that they are about to happen when all these things are about to be accomplished? And what will be the sign that you are coming, and that the ‘olam hazeh is ending?”

⁵Yeshua began speaking to them: ⁴Yeshua replied: ⁸He answered,

“Watch out! Don’t let anyone fool you! Don’t be fooled! For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he! I am the Messiah!’ and, ‘The time has come!’ and they will fool many people and they will lead many astray. ⁶You will hear the noise of wars nearby and the news of wars far off; ⁹And when you hear the noise of wars nearby and the news of wars far off and revolutions, see to it that you don’t become frightened; don’t panic. For these things must happen first, but the end will not follow immediately; Such things must happen, but the end is yet to come.”

¹⁰Then he told them, ⁷⁸For peoples will fight each other, and nations will fight each other, and there will be great earthquakes in various places, various parts of the world; there will be epidemics and famines in various places, and there will be fearful sights and great signs from Heaven; ⁸all this is but the beginning of the ‘birth-pains.’

⁹¹² “But you, before all this, they will arrest you and persecute you, handing you over to the synagogues and prisons; watch yourselves! ⁹At that time you will be arrested and handed over to be punished and put to death. They will hand you over to the local Sanhedrins, you will be beaten up in synagogues, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and on my account you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them, and all peoples will hate you because of me. This will all be on account of me, ¹³but it will prove an opportunity for you to bear witness. ¹⁰At that time many will be trapped into betraying and hating each other, ¹¹many false prophets will appear and fool many people; ¹²and many people’s love will grow cold because of increased distance from Torah. ¹⁰Indeed, the Good News has to be proclaimed first to all the Goyim. ¹¹Now when they arrest you and bring you to trial, don’t worry beforehand about what to say. Rather, say whatever is given you when the time comes; for it will not be just you speaking, but the Ruach HaKodesh. ¹⁴So make up your minds not to worry, rehearsing your defense beforehand; ¹⁵for I myself will give you an eloquence and a wisdom that no adversary will be able to resist or refute. ¹²Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will turn against their parents and have them put to death; ¹⁶You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends; some of you they will have put to death; ¹³¹⁷and everyone will hate you because of me. ¹⁸But not a hair of your head will be lost. ¹⁹By standing firm you will save your lives. ¹³But whoever holds out till the end will be delivered.¹⁴And this Good News about the Kingdom will be announced throughout the whole world as a witness to all the Goyim. It is then that the end will come.

²⁰“However, when you see Yerushalayim surrounded by armies, then you are to understand that she is about to be destroyed. ¹⁵“So ¹⁴now when you see the abomination that causes devastation spoken about through the prophet Dani’el standing in the Holy Place where it ought not to be” (let the reader understand the allusion), ¹⁶“that will be the time for those in Y’hudah to escape to the hills. ²¹Those in Y’hudah must escape to the hills, those inside the city must get out, and those in the country must not enter it.¹⁷¹⁵If someone is on the roof, he must not go down and enter his house to take any of his belongings; to gather his belongings from his house; ¹⁸¹⁶if someone is in the field, he must not turn back to get his coat. ²²For these are the days of vengeance, when everything that has been written in the Tanakh will come true. ¹⁹¹⁷²³What a terrible time it will be for pregnant women and nursing mothers! ¹⁸Pray that it may not happen in winter. ²⁰Pray that you will not have to escape in winter or on Shabbat. For there will be great distress in the Land and judgment on the people. ²¹¹⁹For there will be trouble then worse than there has ever been from the beginning of the world, when God created the universe, until now, and there will be nothing like it again!²²²⁰Indeed, if God had not limited the duration of the trouble, no one would survive; but for the sake of the elect, those whom he has chosen, he has limited it.

²³²¹“At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here’s the Messiah!’ or, ‘See, there he is!’—don’t believe him! ²⁴For ²²there will appear false Messiahs and false prophets performing signs and wonders—great miracles—amazing things!—for the purpose to fool even the chosen, if possible, of misleading the chosen. ²³But you, watch out! ²⁵There! I have told you in advance! ²⁶So if people say to you, ‘Listen! He’s out in the desert!’ don’t go; or, ‘Look! He’s hidden away in a secret room!’ don’t believe it. ²⁷For when the Son of Man does come, it will be like lightning that flashes out of the east and fills the sky to the western horizon. ²⁸Wherever there’s a dead body, that’s where you find the vultures. ²⁴Some will fall by the edge of the sword, others will be carried into all the countries of the Goyim, and Yerushalayim will be trampled down by the Goyim until the age of the Goyim has run its course.

²⁹ “But immediately following the trouble of those times, ²⁴in those days, after the trouble, ²⁵there will appear signs in the sun, moon and stars;

the sun will grow dark,

the moon will stop shining,

²⁵the stars will fall from the sky, and

on earth, nations will be in anxiety and bewilderment at the sound and surge of the sea, ²⁶as people faint with fear at the prospect of what is overtaking the world; for the powers in heaven will be shaken.

³⁰²⁷“And ²⁶then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud [and] on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory. ²⁸When these things start to happen, stand up and hold your heads high; because you are about to be liberated!” ³¹²⁷He will send out his angels with a great shofar; and they will gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven, from one end of heaven to the other.

²⁹Then he told them a parable: ³²“Now let the fig tree teach you its lesson: Look at the fig tree, when its branches begin to sprout and leaves appear, you know that summer is approaching. Indeed, all the trees. ³⁰As soon as they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves that summer is near. ³³³¹In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you are to know that the time is near, right at the door, the Kingdom of God is near! ³⁴³²Yes! I tell you that this people will certainly not pass away before it has all happened, before all these things happen. ³⁵³¹³³Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never—certainly not—pass away. ³⁶“But ³²However, when that day and hour will come, no one knows—not the angels in heaven, not the Son, just only the Father. ³⁷For the Son of Man’s coming will be just as it was in the days of Noach. ³⁸Back then, before the Flood, people went on eating and drinking, taking wives and becoming wives, right up till the day Noach entered the ark; ³⁹and they didn’t know what was happening until the Flood came and swept them all away. It will be just like that when the Son of Man comes. ⁴⁰Then there will be two men in a field—one will be taken and the other left behind. ⁴¹There will be two women grinding flour at the mill—one will be taken and the other left behind. ⁴²So stay alert, because you don’t know on what day your Lord will come. ³³Stay alert! Be on your guard! For you do not know when the time will come. ⁴³But you do know this: had the owner of the house known when the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. ⁴⁴Therefore you too must always be ready, for the Son of Man will come when you are not expecting him.

³⁴“It’s like a man who travels away from home, puts his servants in charge, each with his own task, and tells the doorkeeper to stay alert. ⁴⁵“Who is the faithful and sensible servant whose master puts him in charge of the household staff, to give them their food at the proper time? ⁴⁶It will go well with that servant if he is found doing his job when his master comes. ⁴⁷Yes, I tell you that he will put him in charge of all he owns. ⁴⁸But if that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is taking his time’; ⁴⁹and he starts beating up his fellow servants and spends his time eating and drinking with drunkards; ⁵⁰then his master will come on a day the servant does not expect, at a time he doesn’t know; ⁵¹and he will cut him in two and put him with the hypocrites, where people will wail and grind their teeth! ³⁵So stay alert! for you don’t know when the owner of the house will come, ³⁶whether it will be evening, midnight, cockcrow or morning—you don’t want him to come suddenly and find you sleeping! ³⁴“But keep watch on yourselves, or your hearts will become dulled by carousing, drunkenness and the worries of everyday living, and that Day will be sprung upon you suddenly like a trap! ³⁵For it will close in on everyone, no matter where they live, throughout the whole world. 25¹“The Kingdom of Heaven at that time will be like ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went out to meet the groom. ²Five of them were foolish and five were sensible. ³The foolish ones took lamps with them but no oil, ⁴whereas the others took flasks of oil with their lamps. ⁵Now the bridegroom was late, so they all went to sleep. ⁶It was the middle of the night when the cry rang out, ‘The bridegroom is here! Go out to meet him!’ ⁷The girls all woke up and prepared their lamps for lighting. ⁸The foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’ ⁹‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both you and us. Go to the oil dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ ¹⁰But as they were going off to buy, the bridegroom came. Those who were ready went with him to the wedding feast, and the door was shut. ¹¹Later, the other bridesmaids came. ‘Sir! Sir!’ they cried, ‘Let us in!’ ¹²But he answered, ‘Indeed! I tell you, I don’t know you!’ ¹³So stay alert, because you know neither the day nor the hour. ³⁷And what I say to you, I say to everyone: stay alert!”

¹⁴“For it will be like a man about to leave home for awhile, who entrusted his possessions to his servants. ¹⁵To one he gave five talents [equivalent to a hundred years’ wages]; to another, two talents; and to another, one talent—to each according to his ability. Then he left. ¹⁶The one who had received five talents immediately went out, invested it and earned another five. ¹⁷Similarly, the one given two earned another two. ¹⁸But the one given one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

¹⁹“After a long time, the master of those servants returned to settle accounts with them. ²⁰The one who had received five talents came forward bring the other five and said, ‘Sir, you gave me five talents; here, I have made five more.’ ²¹His master said to him, ‘Excellent! You are a good and trustworthy servant. You have been faithful with a small amount, so I will put you in charge of a large amount. Come and join in your master’s happiness!’ ²²Also the one who had received two came forward and said, ‘Sir, you gave me two talents; here, I have made two more.’ ²³His master said to him, ‘Excellent! You are a good and trustworthy servant. You have been faithful with a small amount, so I will put you in charge of a large amount. Come and join in your master’s happiness!’

²⁴“Now the one who had received one talent came forward and said, ‘I knew you were a hard man. You harvest where you didn’t plant and gather where you didn’t sow seed. ²⁵I was afraid, so I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here! Take what belongs to you!’ ²⁶‘You wicked, lazy servant!’ said his master, ‘So you knew, did you, that I harvest where I haven’t planted? And that I gather where I didn’t sow seed? ²⁷Then you should have deposited my money with the bankers, so that when I returned, I would at least have gotten back interest with my capital! ²⁸Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has ten. ²⁹For everyone who has something will be given more, so that he will have more than enough; but from anyone who has nothing, even what he does have will be taken away. ³⁰As for this worthless servant, throw him out in the dark, where people will wail and grind their teeth!’

³¹“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, accompanied by all the angels, he will sit on his glorious throne. ³²All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates sheep from goats. ³³The ‘sheep’ he will place at his right hand and the ‘goats’ at his left.

³⁴“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you whom my Father has blessed, take your inheritance, the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. ³⁵For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you have me something to drink, I was a stranger and you made me your guest, ³⁶I needed clothes and you provided them, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ ³⁷Then the people who have done what God wants will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? ³⁸When did we see you a stranger and make you our guest, or needing clothes and provide them? ³⁹When did we see you sick or in prison, and visit you?’ ⁴⁰The King will say to them, ‘Yes! I tell you that whenever you did these things for one of the least important of these brothers of mine, you did them for me!’

⁴¹“Then he will also speak to those on his left, saying, ‘Get away from me, you who are cursed! Go off into the fire prepared for the Adversary and his angels! ⁴²For I was hungry and you gave me no food, thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, ⁴³a stranger and you did not welcome me, needing clothes and you did not give them to me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ ⁴⁴Then they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, thirsty, a stranger, needing clothes, sick or in prison, and not take care of you?’ ⁴⁵And he will answer them, ‘Yes! I tell you that whenever you refused to do it for the least important of these people, you refused to do it for me!’ ⁴⁶They will go off to eternal punishment, but those who have done what God wants will go to eternal life.” ³⁶Stay alert, always praying that you will have the strength to escape all the things that will happen and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man.”

God's Word needs to be understood through the oldest languages we have available. Later versions, no matter how well-intentioned the interpreters, have been tainted with "informational thermodynamics." That is, with every change of hands from copier to copier or from language to language or from country to country, some information was lost in translation. It is only natural for human beings to make errors. God preserved His Word within the Bible; however, at no time was plenary verbal inspiration claimed for ANY translation!

Thanks! Good job! I don't see any purple though.

Peter

That's because it doesn't happen that often. Usually when Matthew (red) and Luke (blue) agree, Mark also agrees with them, thus making it all three (brown). However, if you will look in the section from Matthew 24:32-44, Mark 13:31-33, and Luke 21:29-33, you will find a few places in purple.

And you're welcome and welcome to use it wherever you might find a need.

[PGA]

Hi Montana, Danielzk,

Montana I'll have a brief response to your last post later before I go back to work next week.

Danielzk, you'll notice in the article link below various quotes from the works of Josephus that back up Matthew 24. You can bring up the works of Josephus by a Google search and see for yourself by referencing the different books and divisions that are listed. It is not hard.

On both your charges that Preterism is ridiculous I leave this with you for now:

http://www.preterist...schatology.html

Please explain to me how you can view passages like Matthew 10 (esp. vs 23) as unrelated to Matthew 24 with all the similarities that talk of Jesus coming in their lifetime. Would you like to give it a try? Are you telling me that these two passages are talking about two separate comings/events? If so then I'll be interested to see how you go about defending this. How do you separate 'this generation' found in Matthew 23:36 from Matthew 24:34? How do you make 'this generation' into 'that generation'? How do you interpret Revelation 1:7 that says 'all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him'? Do you see this as applying to the nation of Israel or to all the peoples of the whole world? When the inspired writers of the NT say that God is coming quickly/shortly/soon how do turn this into an eternity, all in the name of literalism?

Peter

[PGA]

Peter,

You still don't get it everything the preterist view is all entirely a misunderstanding and misinterpretation of scripture,simply a false reading.

approach this from a common sense perspective,,,,any historical event worth remembering will be documented and recorded by many people and many sources. When Jesus returns it will be the GREATEST Most Spectacular event in all of humankinds history ,nothing will ever be as great of an event as God once again walking with His prized beloved creation ,created in the image of himself .

When Jesus returns ; all the events in Zech 14 will happen ,as of yet there is no evidence of any of Zech 14 having happened nor the antichrist pushing the mark 666 on anyone. when these things happen there will be a multitude of newspaper and radio & TV media coverage immediately to tell the whole world about it as it happens as they say "reporting live "

As the scripture says ...As with Lightning when it strikes in the east as it happens it is seen in the west and so shall the coming of Christ Jesus will be

If aliens from another galaxy landed a spaceship on earth ,there would be hundreds of Live TV reporters there on scene as it happens ,with the superfast satellite broadcasting internet newscasting TV & radio broadcasting and hundreds of millions of cell phone users with internet access and live video on their phones, as with any newsworthy story it is made available to the entire world instantly as it happens ,,

,the 2nd coming of Jesus THEE Christ God in the flesh form returning to earth and saving Israel from destruction,,then establish HIS Kingdom on earth FOREVER will absolutely be broadcast live as it happens

It has not happened yet,,,but when it does happen ,EVERYONE on earth ,atheists, buddists, muslim ,Taoists, hindu and everyone else will know of it as soon as it happens

That is one reason why the preterist view is soooooo wrong and invalid ,

It is more than obvious that you simply ignore dozens of modern day fulfillment of scripture, simply because it proves the preterist notion to be totally impossible

Hi Danielzk,

Just saying the view is wrong is of little persuasion. I need you to show me from Scripture and you are not providing anything that we can discuss or work with at this moment. Let us look at the words of Jesus in the gospels. What did Jesus mean when He said to the disciples in Matthew 10:23,

Matthew 10:23

New International Version (NIV)

²³ When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Have you ever looked at the comparisons between Matthew 10 and Matthew 24, for in Matthew 10:23, surely, it is clear that Jesus is speaking to the disciples concerning their generation and His coming and I feel the same is clear in Matthew 24, is it not?

As for your reference to Zechariah 14, have you done a comparison between Zech. 14:5 and Matthew 25:31 or Matthew 16:27?

http://www.eschatology.org/all-articles-articles-211/113-old-testament-prophecies/953-zechariah-14-fulfilled-or-future

Peter

[PGA]

Hi Danielzk,

Hi Peter

How many times must it be shown to you before you accept it????????

Zechariah 14

6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.

8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.

9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

these are things that WILL happen when Jesus returns,,notice verse 9

9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

Jesus will be king of the earth , on earth when he returns to earth

how is it possible that you cherry pick scriptures that you want a meaning you desire even though that it is not there, but it is plain to see other things that will happen that have not happend???

the reason is that you will not accept the facts and truth ,whether it be scripture, or present day real life events, -Danielzk

Is Jesus not king over all the earth? Is He your king? Do people all over the earth, since His resurrection, acknowledge Him as King of kings and Lord of lords? Does He not reign over every tribe and nation of people? You fail to see that when He came before the throne in heaven at His ascension He was given all dominion and all authority. You have to ignore a lot of Scripture to ignore this truth.

Matthew 28:16-20

New International Version (NIV)

The Great Commission

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

What do these words actual say, not putting any private interpret into them? They say that Jesus came to them, told them that He was given all authority in heaven and on earth and that He would be with them always, to the very end of the age. That end came in A.D. 70. Some of them were still reported to be alive - i.e., John.

During His ascension we see Him coming before the throne of God in heaven and being given this power and honor and great glory.

Matthew 24:30

New International Version (NIV)

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[a] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Footnotes:

Matthew 24:30 Or the tribes of the land

Matthew 24:30 See Daniel 7:13-14.

Daniel 7:13-14

New International Version (NIV)

13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

The apostles and writers of the NT acknowledge that Jesus is Lord and seated on David's throne as the rightful heir.

Acts 2:32-36

New International Version (NIV)

32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:

“Sit at my right hand

35 until I make your enemies

a footstool for your feet.”’[a]

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 7:55-56

New International Version (NIV)

55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

Ephesians 1:20-23

New International Version (NIV)

20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Did you notice that this passage distinguishes between two ages, the present age or one that is and the age to come. Now Jesus said to His eleven disciples that He would be with them to the end of the age and then He would bring in the new age. The question to you is which age were the disciples in? He told them He would be with them until the end of the age. If that age has passed then we are in the age to come. Where do we see a third age? Again, it is important to how you look upon the two ages in which are referred to. The Old and New Covenants make sense of these two ages. The Old Covenant age existed until the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. After that there was no longer any way in which to fulfill the letter of the law. If you don't have a temple then you cannot offer/atone for sins for the people. Jesus over and over again said that He was bringing in a new covenant in His blood.

Colossians 1:11-14

New International Version (NIV)

11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, 12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you[a] to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Are you in the kingdom of light?

Now tell me from these verses and many more how you do not see Christ as having already received His kingdom that was spoken of through Daniel the Prophet as happening during the fourth kingdom. If He has received His kingdom then He is ruling on earth as in heaven. In the Book of Revelation we see the constant switch between the heavenly and the earthly and Jesus is Lord of all!!! The great city spoken of in Revelation 17-18 is none other than Jerusalem, not the United States of Europe. How you get Europe as the great harlot/whore/prostitute is beyond me.Over and over in the NT and the OT we see that the blood of all the saints and prophets is being attributed to Jerusalem, not Europe two thousand years removed. The time of tribulation is none other than that which came upon the city of Jerusalem/land of Israel during the 1st century.

So, again, how do you read Matthew 10 (esp. vs 23) in relation to Matthew 24? Both chapters speak of the end times, persecution, death, betrayal, preaching of the gospels and Jesus' coming (i.e., the end of the age).

Peter

[Montana Marv]

PGA

If Christ has come (the Second Coming). Why does Christ need you as His witness. Did ALL mourn at the Second Coming; Did all see Him arrive. WHY did not Rome follow Him??? Is Satan still active today. If he is, then Christ is still allowing him (Satan) to deceive. If there are two spiritual entities exsisting (Satan and Christ), then Christ is not reigning, and He is not the olny LORD here on earth.

You have no evidence...

Christ's Second Coming is still in our future.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[PGA]

PGA

If Christ has come (the Second Coming). Why does Christ need you as His witness. Did ALL mourn at the Second Coming; Did all see Him arrive. WHY did not Rome follow Him??? Is Satan still active today. If he is, then Christ is still allowing him (Satan) to deceive. If there are two spiritual entities exsisting (Satan and Christ), then Christ is not reigning, and He is not the olny LORD here on earth.

You have no evidence...

Christ's Second Coming is still in our future.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi Montana,

Lots of questions but no answers to the ones I asked you? Your interpretation has a lot to answer for too.

Why does Christ need you as His witness. -Montana

He is still the only way of salvation - the same yesterday, today and forever. Without His ransom, sacrifice and offering we still stand before God on our own merit. People still need to hear the good news.

There is no shadow of turning in God.

Did ALL mourn at the Second Coming; Did all see Him arrive. WHY did not Rome follow Him??? -Montana

It depends what you mean by ALL. The nation of Israel mourned as all the tribes of the land for the judgment that came against Jerusalem and Israel during the 1st century.

Revelation 1:7

New International Version (NIV)

⁷ “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”^[a]

and “every eye will see him,

even those who pierced him”;

and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”^[b]

So shall it be! Amen.

Footnotes:

1. Revelation 1:7 Daniel 7:13
   
2. Revelation 1:7 Zech. 12:10
   

Since this verse is a quote from Zechariah 12:10 is is helpful to see the context from the OT and it concerns Israel.

Zechariah 12:10

New International Version (NIV)

Mourning for the One They Pierced

¹⁰ “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

The prophecy concerns the nation of Israel - the twelve tribes.

Matthew 24:30

New International Version (NIV)

³⁰ “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth^[a] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.^[b]

Footnotes:

1. Matthew 24:30 Or the tribes of the land
   
2. Matthew 24:30 See Daniel 7:13-14.
   

With the destruction of Jerusalem all the nations of the earth would also mourn over her, as revealed in the Book of Revelation.

Luke 23:27-30

New International Version (NIV)

²⁷ A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. ²⁸ Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. ²⁹ For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ ³⁰ Then

“‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!”

and to the hills, “Cover us!”’

Revelation 18:2-3

New International Version (NIV)

² With a mighty voice he shouted:

“‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’^[a]

She has become a dwelling for demons

and a haunt for every impure spirit,

a haunt for every unclean bird,

a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.

³ For all the nations have drunk

the maddening wine of her adulteries.

The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,

and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”

Revelation 18:9-11

New International Version (NIV)

Threefold Woe Over Babylon’s Fall

⁹ “When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. ¹⁰ Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,

you mighty city of Babylon!

In one hour your doom has come!’

¹¹ “The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore—

Is Satan still active today. If he is, then Christ is still allowing him (Satan) to deceive. If there are two spiritual entities exsisting (Satan and Christ), then Christ is not reigning, and He is not the olny LORD here on earth. -Montana

One of the differences between fully and partial Preterism is whether the last three chapters of Revelation have been or will be fulfilled. Was Satan defeated by the cross? I lean towards the position that he was and his demise was complete with the fall of the Old Covenant and Jerusalem. Maybe you can show me otherwise, but here are some verses that speak to fulfillment:

Genesis 3:15

New International Version (NIV)

¹⁵ And I will put enmity

between you and the woman,

and between your offspring^[a] and hers;

he will crush^[b] your head,

and you will strike his heel.”

Footnotes:

1. Genesis 3:15 Or seed
   
2. Genesis 3:15 Or strike
   

Romans 16:20

New International Version (NIV)

²⁰ The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

John 12:29-31

New International Version (NIV)

²⁹ The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

³⁰ Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. ³¹ Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

John 16:10-11

New International Version (NIV)

¹⁰ about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; ¹¹ and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Both sin and death were defeat by the cross, but God allowed Satan to roam the earth once he was kicked out of the heavenly realms after the resurrection of Christ for a short time. Until the Old Covenant was completely dismantled Christ's kingdom would not have come in its fullness. The judgment spoken of in John 12:31 and 16:11 took until the destruction of the temple and city before being complete, even though Satan's defeat came at the cross. The power of sin and death was overcome by the cross (Col. 2:15). God accepted the sacrifice/death of the One who brought in the new covenant.

Satan was once the power of the air (Eph. 2:2)/the ruler of the spiritual realm, but now the Lord is. Satan had been cast down to earth for a short time. At the destruction of the city and temple I believe he was cast into the lake of Revelation 20:10.

Revelation 12:7-12

New International Version (NIV)

⁷ Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. ⁸ But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. ⁹ The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

¹⁰ Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power

and the kingdom of our God,

and the authority of his Messiah.

For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,

who accuses them before our God day and night,

has been hurled down.

¹¹ They triumphed over him

by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony;

they did not love their lives so much

as to shrink from death.

¹² Therefore rejoice, you heavens

and you who dwell in them!

But woe to the earth and the sea,

because the devil has gone down to you!

He is filled with fury,

because he knows that his time is short.”

The Lord reigns over the earth from heaven!

Peter

[PGA]

Hi Montana,

Where is Christ's Second Coming. -Montana

Exactly, where is it? I believe it has already come but it is not recognized because people today are looking for it as a physical, visible coming on earth.

If Christ Came; Why did Rome continue to rule till about 350 AD. -Montana

Daniel 2:44

New International Version (NIV)

⁴⁴ “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

The Roman Empire no longer exists. As you say, it rule came to an end. God bought other nations against it until it was crushed just as He did against Babylon, and other kingdoms and nations.

You serve a weak Jesus Christ. -Montana

Not at all. I believe He has conquered sin and death, do you? The Lord reigns. You seem to be oblivious to this. Is not His kingship in the lives of all believers in this generation over all nations of this world, just like it has since He ascended to the right hand of God in heaven? Do we, as Christians not serve the King of kings and the Lord of lords? The King of kings has a kingdom. Paul said:

Philippians 3:20

New International Version (NIV)

²⁰ But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Colossians 3:1-4

New International Version (NIV)

Living as Those Made Alive in Christ

3 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. ² Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. ³ For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. ⁴ When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Satan still influences individuals. -Montana

People are influenced by all kinds of things depending on how the foundation of their lives is built.

A Secret Second Coming which no one saw. -Montana

Do you believe that every time the Bible uses the word 'see' or 'saw' that it talks about a physical seeing? You can also see through the eyes of your understanding. With the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple I believe that they understood and mourned - all the tribes of the land.

1,000 years is 1,000 years. -Montana

It depends on its context and whether God is using the 1000 years figuratively or literally. The Bible and especially the NT constantly contrast or compare, as well as shows the shadows and typologies of, the OT in a new light. In Hebrews we see the contrasts between two cities (earthly/old and heavenly/new Jerusalem), two covenants, two mediators, two priesthoods, two tabernacles, and so on. In Revelation we have two cities contrasted, two peoples, two judgments, two places, two realms - heaven and earth, etc, etc. You can't take the whole of Revelation as literal. But to interpret it correctly you have to understand the figures of speech and how the symbols, metaphors, imagery, shadows and typologies are used in the OT and in reference to what.

Jesus Christ setting His feet on the Mt. of Olives is what Scripture says. Your three sources were very weak indeed. Did Jesus really wash the Disciples feet, or was this an allegory that Christians must be clean. Did Christ really assend up into Heaven. Is there a Heaven. Is there a Lake of Fire as Scripture says. The Perterest position is totally ridiculous. The manufactuers of that beleif are not even in the ballpark. Christ becomes a weak God, Satan still abounds. -Montana

That is a misrepresentation of the Preterist position. I believe that Jesus physically washed the feet of His disciples as an example and lesson to them as well as us. I believe that there is a heaven, but I don't necessarily see it in the same light that you do. I believe that Jesus ascended to heaven. The ascension is spoken of not only in the NT but also in the OT (Daniel 7:13-14 for instance).

Peter