Believer1997 Posted June 16, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 66 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,363 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 9 Joined: 11/07/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2010 Especially the pilot and/or the charter company that agreed to such nonsense as putting that much weight and people on a small plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godrulz Posted June 16, 2010 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 885 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1960 Share Posted June 16, 2010 Yes, the problem was with man, not God. If God intervened every time we do something wrong, things would be mixed up and love and free will would have to go out the window. Keith was never Calvinistic/fatalistic. He longed for heaven like we all should. His influence was Charles Finney, etc., the enemy of hyper-Calvinism, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 16, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.96 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted June 16, 2010 Yes, the problem was with man, not God. All I'm saying is that it was very, very odd that this simple piece of common sense was blinded from everyone before the accident. Whatever the cause was . . . that was weird, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believer1997 Posted June 16, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 66 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,363 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 9 Joined: 11/07/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2010 I personally don't think it was weird - I think things like this happen all the time and we are not necessarily 'blinded' - often we just don't want to be faced with the inconvenience and additional expense to plan things properly and safely. How many times have people jumped in the car to 'run down' to the corner store and don't put on seat belts or bother to buckle the kids up and then something tragic happens? There are things which are just unavoidable and unforeseen - some are more obvious, overloading a boat or plane with more than the recommended weight or number of passengers is horribly predictable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellarose Posted June 17, 2010 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 388 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/02/1989 Share Posted June 17, 2010 if we are appointed to die, how can our death not be in God's control? how can God write all of our days down if He doesn't know when they will end? if God meant for joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery, how can you know God did not mean for keith green to die when he did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godrulz Posted June 17, 2010 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 885 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1960 Share Posted June 17, 2010 I don't believe God desired nor intended Keith Green to die. It was presumptuous to overload the airplane and the pilot should have known better. God allowed it, but that does not mean He intended it. If Keith would have decided to not go up with some kids, he may still be alive today. God has given us free will that He normally does not tamper with, despite the consequences. He does mitigate the situation and did use it to reach the lost and stir the church to their responsibility. Keith was not Calvinistic, so would object to the idea of this being God's perfect will. We are in spiritual warfare. Sometimes there are losses despite our position of victory at the cross and in the end (we are in between now). Hbr 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, Psa 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. Gen 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. if we are appointed to die, how can our death not be in God's control? how can God write all of our days down if He doesn't know when they will end? if God meant for joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery, how can you know God did not mean for keith green to die when he did? Hebrews is stating we die and then are judged. It is sheer eisegesis to proof text it to mean our exact date of death is predestined (suicides or accidents that are preventable?!). Psalms is poetic, not didactic. The Psalmist is expressing God's present knowledge (the womb) and His intentions for a person that are not a causative blueprint nor meticulously controlled. Other verses show that the future is partially open and things happen that God did not intend nor desire. As well, some translations have a Calvinistic bias, so original language and other version comparison is helpful. God did not orchestrate nor predestine the slavery issue. Moral agents can do evil and God can creatively mitigate it or orchestrate things to bring good out of it. This is one historical narrative, not a universal principle either (Hitler's killing of Jews was not intended or caused by God. He mitigated some of the evil, but much of it was horrific, grievous, and justice will not take place until eternity. The ones who died have no good coming out of it if they were not believers. The Bible presents a warfare view, not a blueprint view. God allowed these things against Joseph, but did not cause or initiate them. He then used it to bring good by His ability. If the free agents had a heart change and loved Joseph instead, the story would have panned out differently. God is omnicompetent, not omnicausal. He sovereignly decided to not tightly control all things in order for love, freedom, relationship to be genuine, a higher good, despite the potential for evil and suffering (that are contrary to His will according to the Gospels). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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