Nearness of the Rapture

[Bible2]

wyguy said:

There is a document called "pseudo-ephraem" which is a sermon by Ephream of Nisibis . . .

Note that the document wouldn't be called "Pseudo (False) Ephraem" if it had really been written by Ephraem.

Also, when the document says "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation" (Section 2), it doesn't mean prior to the tribulation of Matthew 24. For that would contradict the scriptural teaching that all the elect are gathered "after the tribulation" of Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

Also, the writer of the document mistakenly thought that the first half of the tribulation of Matthew 24 had already occurred by his time, and that all that was left to happen was the time of the Antichrist: "Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord [cf. Matthew 24:6-7], they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [cf. Matthew 24:15-22]" (Section 2).

And the writer says that the church will have to go through that time: "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [cf. Revelation 12:14], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the adders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs" (Section 8). There is no salvation apart from being a Christian (John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

The writer again in Section 9 says that the church will have to go through that time: "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord" (Section 9). No one is just or found good (Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no one who has faith in Jesus Christ is outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

But back in Section 4 the writer says that some in the church will nonetheless die during that time: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them".

So in the latter half of Section 2, when the writer says that "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation", and he doesn't mean the tribulation of Matthew 24, what does he mean? The answer is found in the first half of Section 2: "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world". What the writer means by "the confusion" (and so also by "the tribulation") is explained in Section 10: "Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth". The writer is referring to the confusion and destruction of the Antichrist and the unsaved world at the post-trib, second-coming battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14,16, 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which battle the church will be be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to have a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that post-trib meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and then marry the church (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before the church mounts white horses and descends back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he wages war against, and completely defeats, the Antichrist and all the armies of the unsaved world, which will all have gathered against him (Revelation 19:19-21, Revelation 16:14-16). Then the whole church, including those in the church who were beheaded by the Antichrist (the beast), will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

[Bold Believer]

Indeed, there will be a pre-trib Rapture. And I look for it soon.

From what I have read, the pre-trib idea started in the 1600's by a Puritan Minister in Mass. Funny how no other follower of Christ understood this concept prior to that.

Actually, it was 1830 in Scotland. A minister, J. N. Darby of the Irvingites, derived the concept from a reported prophecy by a young named Margaret MacDonald. It was not well-received at first. Cyrus Ingerson Scofield popularized the teaching in the US.

[wyguy]

wyguy said:

There is a document called "pseudo-ephraem" which is a sermon by Ephream of Nisibis . . .

Note that the document wouldn't be called "Pseudo (False) Ephraem" if it had really been written by Ephraem.

Also, when the document says "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation" (Section 2), it doesn't mean prior to the tribulation of Matthew 24. For that would contradict the scriptural teaching that all the elect are gathered "after the tribulation" of Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

Also, the writer of the document mistakenly thought that the first half of the tribulation of Matthew 24 had already occurred by his time, and that all that was left to happen was the time of the Antichrist: "Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord [cf. Matthew 24:6-7], they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [cf. Matthew 24:15-22]" (Section 2).

And the writer says that the church will have to go through that time: "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [cf. Revelation 12:14], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the adders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs" (Section 8). There is no salvation apart from being a Christian (John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

The writer again in Section 9 says that the church will have to go through that time: "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord" (Section 9). No one is just or found good (Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no one who has faith in Jesus Christ is outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

But back in Section 4 the writer says that some in the church will nonetheless die during that time: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them".

So in the latter half of Section 2, when the writer says that "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation", and he doesn't mean the tribulation of Matthew 24, what does he mean? The answer is found in the first half of Section 2: "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world". What the writer means by "the confusion" (and so also by "the tribulation") is explained in Section 10: "Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth". The writer is referring to the confusion and destruction of the Antichrist and the unsaved world at the post-trib, second-coming battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14,16, 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which battle the church will be be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to have a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that post-trib meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and then marry the church (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before the church mounts white horses and descends back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he wages war against, and completely defeats, the Antichrist and all the armies of the unsaved world, which will all have gathered against him (Revelation 19:19-21, Revelation 16:14-16). Then the whole church, including those in the church who were beheaded by the Antichrist (the beast), will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

You may find this article by Thomas Ice of interest.

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

by Thomas Ice

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Critics of pretribulationism sometimes state that belief in the rapture is a doctrinal development of recent origin. They argue that the doctrine of the rapture or any semblance of it was completely unknown before the early 1800s and the writings of John Nelson Darby. One of the most vocal and sensational critics of the rapture is Dave MacPherson, who argues that, "during the first 18 centuries of the Christian era, believers were never 'Rapture separaters' [sic]; they never separated the minor Rapture aspect of the Second Coming of Christ from the Second Coming itself."1

A second critic, John Bray, also vehemently opposes a pretribulational rapture, writing, "this teaching is not a RECOVERY of truth once taught and then neglected. No, it never was taught-for 1800 years nearly no one knew anything about such a scheme."2 More recently, pre-trib opponent Robert Van Kampen proclaimed, "The pretribulational rapture position with its dual parousias was unheard of in church history prior to 1830."3 In our previous issue of Pre-Trib Perspectives, I noted that pre-wrath advocate Marvin Rosenthal has also joined the chorus.4

Christian reconstructionists have also consistently and almost universally condemned premillennialism and pretribulationism, favoring instead, postmillen-nialism. One sample of their prolific and often vitri-olic opposition can be seen in Gary North's derisive description of the rapture as "the Church's hoped-for Escape Hatch on the world's sinking ship," which he, like MacPherson, believes was invented in 1830.5

How to Find the Rapture in History

Is pretribulationism as theologically bankrupt as its critics profess, or are there answers to these charges? If there are reasonable answers, then the burden of proof and historical argumentation shifts back to the critics. Rapture critics must acknowledge and interact with the historical and theological evidence.

Rapture critic William Bell has formulated three criteria for establishing the validity of a historical citation regarding the rapture. If any of his three criteria are met, then he acknowledges it is "of crucial importance, if found, whether by direct statement or clear inference." As will be seen, the Pseudo-Ephraem sermon meets not one, but two of his canons, namely, "Any mention that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years," and "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period."6

Pseudo-Ephraem's Rapture Statement

I vividly remember the phone call at my office late one afternoon from Canadian prophecy teacher and writer Grant Jeffrey.7 He told me that he had found an ancient pre-trib rapture statement. I said, "Let's hear it." He read the following to me over the phone:

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

I said that it sure sounds like a pre-trib statement and began to fire at him all the questions I have since received many times when telling others about the statement from Pseudo-Ephraem's sermon On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.8 Grant's phone call started me on journey through many of the substantial libraries throughout the Washington, D.C. area in an effort to learn all I could about this historically significant statement. The more information I acquired led me to conclude that Grant is right to conclude that this is a pre-trib rapture statement of antiquity.

Who is Pseudo-Ephraem?

The word "Pseudo" (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church. He was well-known for his poetics, rejection of rationalism, and confrontations with the heresies of Marcion, Mani, and the Arians. As a poet, exegete, and theologian, his style was similar to that of the Jewish midrashic and targumic traditions and he favored a contemplative approach to spirituality. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual father and role model. His many works, some of doubtful authenticity, were soon translated from Syriac into Greek, Armenian, and Latin.

It is not at all unreasonable to expect that a prolific and prominent figure such as Ephraem would have writings ascribed to him. While there is little support for Ephraem as the author of the Sermon on the End of the World, Caspari and Alexander have demonstrated that Pseudo-Ephraem was "heavily influenced by the genuine works of Ephraem."9 What is more difficult, though secondary to the main purpose of this article, is determining the exact date, purpose, location of, and extent of subsequent editorial changes to the sermon.10

Suggestions on the date of the writing of the original sermon range from as early as Wilhelm Bousset's 373 date,11 to Caspari's estimation of sometime between 565 and 627.12 Paul Alexander, after reviewing all the argumentation, favors a date for the final form similar to that suggested by Caspari,13 but Alexander also states simply, "It will indeed not be easy to decide on the matter."14 All are clear that it had to have been written before the advent of Islam.

Pseudo-Ephraem's Sermon

The sermon consists of just under 1500 words, divided into ten sections and has been preserved in four Latin manuscripts. Three of these date from the eighth century and ascribe the sermon to Ephraem. A fourth manuscript from the ninth century, claims not Ephraem, but Isidore of Seville (d. 636) as author.15 Additionally, there are subsequent Greek and Syriac versions of the sermon which have raised questions regarding the language of the original manuscript. On the basis of lexical analysis and study of the biblical citations within the sermon with Latin, Greek, and Syriac versions of the Bible, Alexander believed it most probable that the homily was composed in Syriac, translated first into Greek, and then into Latin from the Greek.16 Regardless of the original language, the vocabulary and style of the extant copies are consistent with the writings of Ephraem and his era. It appears likely that the sermon was written near the time of Ephraem and underwent slight change during subsequent coping.

What is most significant for present-day readers is the fact that the sermon was popular enough to be translated into several languages fairly soon after its composition. The significance of the sermon for us today is that it represents a prophetic view of a pre-trib rapture within the orthodox circles of its day.

The sermon is built around the three themes of the title On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World and proceeds chronologically. The fact that the pre-trib statement occurs in section 2, while the antichrist and tribulation are developed throughout the middle sections, followed by Christ's second coming to the earth in the final section supports a pre-trib sequence. This characteristic of the sermon fits the first criteria outlined by William Bell, namely "that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years." Thus, phase one is the rapture statement from section 2; the interval of 3 1/2 years, 42 months, and 1,260 days, said to be the tribulation in sections 7 and 8; the second phase of Christ's return is noted in section 10 and said to take place "when the three and a half years have been completed."17

Why Pseudo-Ephraem's Statement is Pretribulational

After learning of Pseudo-Ephraem's rapture statement, I shared it with a number of colleagues. My favorite approach was to simply read the statement, free of any introductory remarks, and ask what they thought. Every person, whether pre-trib or not, concluded that it was some kind of pre-trib statement. A few thought it was a statement from such pre-trib proponents like John Walvoord or Charles Ryrie. Most noted the clear statement concerning the removal of believers before the tribulation as a reason for thinking the statement pre-trib. This is Bell's second criteria for identifying a pre-trib statement from the past, namely, "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period." Note the following reasons why this should be taken as a pre-trib statement:

1) Section 2 of the sermon begins with a statement about imminency: "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent [Latin "immineat"] or overhanging."18 This is similar to the modern pre-trib view of imminency and considering the subsequent rapture statements supports a pre-trib scenario.

2) As I break down the rapture statement, notice the following observations:

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered . . ." Gathered where? A later clause says they "are taken to the Lord." Where is the Lord? Earlier in the paragraph the sermon speaks of "the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion. . ." Thus the movement is from the earth toward the Lord who is apparently in heaven. Once again, in conformity to a translation scenario found in the pre-trib teaching.

The next phrase says that the gathering takes place "prior to the tribulation that is to come. . ." so we see that the event is pretribulational and the tribulation is future to the time in which Pseudo-Ephraem wrote.

The purpose for the gathering was so that they would not "see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of their sins." Here we have the purpose of the tribulation judgments stated and that was to be a time of judgment upon the world because of their sin, thus, the church was to be taken out.

3) Finally, the Byzantine scholar Paul Alexander clearly believed that Pseudo-Ephraem was teaching what we call today a pre-trib rapture. According to Alexander, most Byzantine apocalypses were concerned with how Christians would survive the time of severe persecution by Antichrist. The normal approach given by other apocalyptic texts was a shortening of the time to three and a half years, enabling the survival of some Christians.19 Unlike those texts, this sermon has Christians being removed from the time of tribulation. Alexander observed:

It is probably no accident that Pseudo-Ephraem does not mention the shortening of the time intervals for the Antichrist's persecution, for if prior to it the Elect are 'taken to the Lord,' i.e., participate at least in some measure in beatitude, there is no need for further mitigating action on their behalf. The Gathering of the Elect according to Pseudo-Ephraem is an alternative to the shortening of the time intervals.20

Conclusion

Regardless of what else the writer of this sermon believed, he did believe that all believers would be removed before the tribulation-a pre-trib rapture view. Thus, we have seen that those who have said that there was no one before 1830 who taught the pre-trib rapture position will have to revise their statements by well over 1,000 years. This statement does not prove the pre-trib position, only the Bible can do that, but it should change many people's historical views on the matter.

ENDNOTES

1 Dave MacPherson, The Great Rapture Hoax (Fletcher, NC: New Puritan Library, 1983), 15. For a refutation of MacPherson's charges see Thomas D. Ice, "Why the Doctrine of the Pretribulational Rapture Did Not Begin with Margaret Macdonald," Bibliotheca Sacra 147 (1990): 155-68.

2 John L. Bray, The Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Teaching (Lakeland, FL.: John L. Bray Ministry, 1982), 31-32.

3 Robert Van Kampen, The Sign (Wheaton, IL.: Crossway Books, 1992), 445.

4 Thomas Ice, "Is The Pre-Trib Rapture A Satanic Deception?" Pre-Trib Perspectives (II:1; March 1995):1-3.

5 Gary North, Rapture Fever: Why Dispensationalism is Paralyzed (Tyler, TX.: Institute for Christian Economics, 1993), 105.

6 William E. Bell, "A Critical Evaluation of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine in Christian Eschatology" (Ph.D. diss., New York University, 1967), 26-27.

7 For more information on the Pseudo-Ephraem statement see Grant R. Jeffrey, Final Warning (Toronto: Frontier Research Publications, 1995). Forthcoming, Timothy Demy and Thomas Ice, "The Rapture and an Early Medieval Citation" Bibliotheca Sacra 152 (July 1995): 300-11. Grant R. Jeffrey, "A Pretribulational Rapture Statement in the Early Medieval Church" in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, ed., When the Trumpet Sounds: Today's Foremost Authorities Speak Out on End-Time Controversies (Eugene, Or: Harvest House, 1995).

8 Grant Jeffrey found the statement in Paul J. Alexander, The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, by (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985), 2.10. The late Alexander found the sermon in C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters, (Christiania, 1890), 208-20. This German work also contains Caspari's commentary on the sermon on pages 429-72.

9 Paul J. Alexander, "The Diffusion of Byzantine Apocalypses in the Medieval West and the Beginnings of Joachimism," in Prophecy and Millenarianism: Essays in Honour of Marjorie Reeves, ed. Ann Williams (Essex, U.K. : Longman, 1980), 59.

10 Paul J. Alexander, "Medieval Apocalypses as Historical Sources," American Historical Review 73 (1968): 1017. In this essay Alexander addresses in-depth the historical difficulties facing the interpreter of such texts. To these difficulties, issues of theological interpretation and concern must also be added.

11 W. Bousset, The Antichrist Legend, trans. A. H. Keane (London: Hutchinson and Co., 1896), 33-41. An early date is also accepted by Andrew R. Anderson, Alexander's Gate: Gog and Magog and the Enclosed Nations. Monographs of the Mediaeval Academy of America, no. 5. (Cambridge, MA.: Mediaeval Academy of America, 1932):16-18.

12 Caspari, 437-42.

13 Alexander, Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, 147. This leaves the possibility that the work may have been altered or revised prior to the date of the extant manuscripts.

14 Ibid., 145. Earlier, he writes: "All that is certain, is as Caspari pointed out, that it must have been written prior to Heraclius' victories over Sassanid Persia, for the author talks repeatedly of wars between Rome and Persia and such discussions do not make sense after Heraclius' victories and the beginning of the Arab invasions" (144).

15 Ibid., 136-37. The only critical edition is Caspari's which suffers a lack of objectivity in that he relied upon only two of the four extant manuscripts.

16 Ibid., 140-44.

17 Caspari, 219. English citations are taken from a translation of the sermon provided by Cameron Rhoades, instructor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX.

18 Ibid., 210.

19 Alexander, 209.

20 Ibid., 210-11.

[Rick-Parker]

Good job finding that, wyguy!

[OneLight]

Indeed, there will be a pre-trib Rapture. And I look for it soon.

From what I have read, the pre-trib idea started in the 1600's by a Puritan Minister in Mass. Funny how no other follower of Christ understood this concept prior to that.

Oh well.

That's it? Oh Well ... glad nothing depends on an explanation from you, Parker.

Ya know, this is not supposed to be a debate on whether there will be a pre-trib rapture or not. There are plenty of pages of discussion, argument, innuendo (such as you have done here), name calling and closed threads on the issue. There is even a debate on the 3 different beliefs on this very topic category FYI. Perhaps you should read those topics again instead of throwing insults at me because my answer wasn't sufficient for you. By the way, you can do a search on what I have posted in regards to this issue to find out my position on it. Blessings to you, Brother.

FYI ...This is a discussion board. If you don't feel like discussing a subject, then why make a statement that you very well know is controversial? Care to tell me how what I said was indirect? I think it was straight forward. I challenged what you said. It was that simple and I was proven wrong at that. I find it hard to get you to step into a discussion about a statement you made and back it up with scripture, or even your own thoughts, Brother.

1 Peter 3:13-17 (New King James Version)

Suffering for Right and Wrong

And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness

[turtletwo]

I do not believe in the pre-trib rapture, though I have stated that the rapture is closer then we could ever believe. The apostasy is already happening. Look around. I don't know where we are on the time-line, but I do not believe His coming is a ways off.

Why don't you believe in the pre-trib rapture, OneLight? I would be truly interested to hear your thoughts on this. I happen to respect the various positions on the timing of Christ's return for His own. We can lovingly disagree on this matter, while still fellowshiping in Christ with one another. Do you agree?

Yes, there is apostacy everywhere. Sadly, it's found its way into many churches now! Some are even practicing yoga and dabbling with things from the New Age Movement.

It is difficult to find one that even proclaims the gospel anymore. They are turning more into clubs than places of worship. Many will no longer preach that we are all sinners who must trust in Christ's Atonement as our only hope for Heaven. They often shy away from mentioning repentance and a literal Hell. They are afraid that their mega-churches will shrink if they address unpopular topics such as leading holy lives. ("Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" Hebrews 12:14 ) Some are even ashamed to mention the precious Blood that Jesus shed!

It is a sobering time, to be sure. People I knew who I once thought to be genuine Christians have turned to crazy beliefs... such as 'everyone is going to Heaven.' I think that is called Universalism. But scripture says,"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:13-14

[OneLight]

I do not believe in the pre-trib rapture, though I have stated that the rapture is closer then we could ever believe. The apostasy is already happening. Look around. I don't know where we are on the time-line, but I do not believe His coming is a ways off.

Why don't you believe in the pre-trib rapture, OneLight? I would be truly interested to hear your thoughts on this. I happen to respect the various positions on the timing of Christ's return for His own. We can lovingly disagree on this matter, while still fellowshiping in Christ with one another. Do you agree?

Yes, there is apostacy everywhere. Sadly, it's found its way into many churches now! Some are even practicing yoga and dabbling with things from the New Age Movement.

It is difficult to find one that even proclaims the gospel anymore. They are turning more into clubs than places of worship. Many will no longer preach that we are all sinners who must trust in Christ's Atonement as our only hope for Heaven. They often shy away from mentioning repentance and a literal Hell. They are afraid that their mega-churches will shrink if they address unpopular topics such as leading holy lives. ("Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" Hebrews 12:14 ) Some are even ashamed to mention the precious Blood that Jesus shed!

It is a sobering time, to be sure. People I knew who I once thought to be genuine Christians have turned to crazy beliefs... such as 'everyone is going to Heaven.' I think that is called Universalism. But scripture says,"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:13-14

Sure. Here it is in a nutshell.

Let look not only at 2 Thessalonians, but other scripture as well.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

The Comfort of Christ

[turtletwo]

What do I see, OneLight? A lot to comprehend! Though you did a good job trying to explain things to me. It's not your fault, by any means. I just get mind fog from being seriously ill, so that's probably why I'm still confused. Because between the N.T. verses and Daniel (and other O.T. prophets)...there are so many end time scriptures. That it's like putting together a 1000 piece puzzle on the table. Hard to complete the picture. To tie them all together in sequence. But I will continue re-reading and considering your explaination, OneLight...as well as the others here.

You all gave thought-provoking input! KatyAnn brought up the parable of the Wheat and the Tares. Which is well worth remembering when discussing this. So would this be a post-tribulation view, KatyAnn? Or how would you define the timing of this event Jesus foretold? Any thoughts on this parable, anyone? It seems quite clearly interpreted for us.

And nebula spoke of the trumpets. I have always been drawn to that same thought. If the Christians go up at the last trump, then that would be the seventh trumpet of Revelation. Correct? So is that a mid-trib position, neb? Because don't the worst part of the judgements follow the trumpets in the pouring out of the seven vials? Doesn't the revealing of the son of perdition and him setting himself up as god in the temple occur around the middle of the Tribulation?

Despite issues with mind fog, I am still very interested in prophecy. If only for the reason wyguy said," I say, the sooner the better. I'm sick of living in this sack of sin I call a body." As someone 'sick of being sick', I look forward to the new body the Lord will graciously give me. Just imagine being pain-free, sorrow-free and sin-free!

But the best part of all will definitely be meeting the One who gave His Life for me and paid the penalty for my sins. I can't wait to thank Him IN PERSON and worship Him forever!!!

2 Timothy 4:8

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. Maranatha! Come quickly, Yeshua!

[Jedi4Yahweh]

A lot of extrabiblical sources are being used here. Stick to scripture. Read the parable of the Wheat and the Tares. Notice that the Tares are collected and burned before the Wheat is gathered.

Matt 13

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Then Christ explains what this means.

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

So, evidently the Tares (unbelievers) are gathered and burnt and the Wheat (believers) are still there to inherit the Kingdom of God.

The point...there is no rapture of believers with unbelievers left behind. Matt 13 makes it very plain.

Interesting point...

[Bible2]

wyguy said:

You may find this article by Thomas Ice of interest.

Note that he confirms that the document wouldn't be called "Pseudo (False) Ephraem" if it had really been written by Ephraem: "The word 'Pseudo' (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem"; "there is little support for Ephraem as the author".

Ice said:

The fact that the pre-trib statement occurs in section 2, while the antichrist and tribulation are developed throughout the middle sections, followed by Christ's second coming to the earth in the final section supports a pre-trib sequence.

Note that there's no pre-Matthew-24-tribulation rapture statement in Section 2, as was shown in detail in post #23 of this thread. Also, the pre-battle-of-Armageddon-rapture statement in Section 2 comes after Section 1's reference to the Matthew 24 tribulation: "There will be stirrings of nations and evil reports, pestilences, famines, and earth quakes in various places. All nations will receive captives; there will be wars and rumors of wars. From the rising to the setting of the sun the sword will devour much. The times will be so dangerous that in fear and trembling they will not permit thought of better things, because many will be the oppressions and desolations of regions that are to come".

Ice said:

After learning of Pseudo-Ephraem's rapture statement, I shared it with a number of colleagues. My favorite approach was to simply read the statement, free of any introductory remarks, and ask what they thought. Every person, whether pre-trib or not, concluded that it was some kind of pre-trib statement.

But they would be mistaken, just as, for example, preterists are mistaken when they simply read the statement: "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in the tribulation" (Revelation 1:9; the original Greek has a "the" before "tribulation"). For even though John in the first century referred to his being in "the tribulation", he didn't mean the tribulation of Matthew 24, but the general tribulation which Christians have always had to go through (Acts 14:22, John 16:33).

Just as we are not to read "the tribulation" in Revelation 1:9 as referring to the tribulation of Matthew 24, so we are not to read "the tribulation" in Section 2 of the Pseudo-Ephraem document as referring to the tribulation of Matthew 24.

Ice said:

Section 2 of the sermon begins with a statement about imminency . . .

Section 2 of the document refers only to the writer's mistaken belief in the imminency of the coming of the Antichrist, as the writer mistakenly thought that the first half of the Matthew 24 tribulation had already happened by his time: "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one".

Ice said:

As I break down the rapture statement, notice the following observations:

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered . . ." Gathered where? A later clause says they "are taken to the Lord." Where is the Lord? Earlier in the paragraph the sermon speaks of "the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion. . ." Thus the movement is from the earth toward the Lord who is apparently in heaven

Note that none of those statements mean a pre-Matthew-24-tribulation rapture, or a rapture into the third heaven. For it's only after the tribulation of Matthew 24 that the church will be be gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), and the church will be raptured only as high as the sky (the first heaven) to have a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

Ice said:

The purpose for the gathering was so that they would not "see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of their sins." Here we have the purpose of the tribulation judgments stated and that was to be a time of judgment upon the world because of their sin, thus, the church was to be taken out.

The "confusion" (and the "tribulation") referred to by the writer in Section 2 of the Pseudo-Ephraem document is only the "confusion" of the post-trib battle of Armageddon in Section 10 of the document. For the church will be raptured into the air (and then married to Jesus, Revelation 19:7) only right before the judgment of the whole world at the post-trib battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19:11-21).

Ice said:

Unlike those texts, this sermon has Christians being removed from the time of tribulation.

Actually, the document in no way has Christians being removed from the Matthew 24 tribulation, but repeatedly refers to Christians suffering and dying during that time: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic" (Section 4); "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [cf. Revelation 12:14], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the adders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord" (Section 8); "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord" (Section 9).

Edited August 19, 2010 by Bible2