Nearness of the Rapture

[Bible2]

PaulT said:

At the risk of pointing out the blindingly obvious, the rapture described in 2 Thessalonians 4 hasn't happened yet.

Did you mean 1 Thessalonians 4? If so, that's right.

But the full preterists nonetheless still (mistakenly) claim that the second coming, resurrection, and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7-20:6) have already happened, because they employ the same "it's only allegorical, not literal" argument that you use to (mistakenly) claim that all of the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 have already happened.

If partial preterists such as yourself have no problem accepting that the second coming, resurrection and rapture haven't yet occurred, because nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7-20:6), then why do partial preterists such as yourself have such a huge problem accepting that the events of Revelation chapters 6-18 haven't yet occurred, since nowhere in history do we find these events?

If partial preterists such as yourself feel no need to try to shoehorn the second coming, resurrection, and rapture into some point in history, then why do you feel any need to try to shoehorn the events of Revelation chapters 6-18 into history? Why can't Revelation chapters 6-18 happen in the future just as the second coming, resurrection and rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7-20:6) will happen in the future?

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The mistaken idea of preterism, whether partial preterism or full preterism, could be animated by the same spirit of fear that the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture coul be animated by: the fear that the church which is presently alive on the earth will have to go through the awful suffering of the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 and Matthew 24:7-29. Both the mistaken idea of preterism and the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture give a false assurance to the church which is presently alive on the earth that it won't have to suffer through the tribulation. The mistaken idea of preterism gives the church the false assurance that the entire tribulation already happened in the past, while the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture gives the church the false assurance that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the third heaven before the tribulation begins.

But when the tribulation begins in the future, the shaky doctrinal wall which both preterism and pre-trib-rapturism have tried to build up between the church and the tribulation will be completely shattered (cf. Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church begins to suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4). The mistaken ideas of preterism and pre-trib-rapturism will have left many in the church completely unprepared mentally to undergo this suffering, to where these mistaken ideas could even contribute to many in the church committing apostasy during the tribulation (to the ultimate loss of their salvation: Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:1) as they become "offended" that God would make them go through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-12, cf. Isaiah 8:21-22).

Even though the church will have to suffer through Revelation chapters 6-18 in the future, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10), because even if many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), this will only be to their gain (Philippians 1:21,23, 2 Corinthians 5:8, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Timothy 2:12).

PaulT said:

No man knows the day or the hour, yet the appointed time, known only to God, is closer today than it was yesterday.

While Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". That is, he could have been referring only to the time in which Matthew 24:36 was spoken, not to the future. For elsewhere he says: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13). That is, the Holy Spirit can show Christians when Jesus will return. This is similar to what Paul says: "even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things" (1 Corinthians 2:11-12). Also, Amos says: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

In Matthew 24:44, Jesus could mean that only if Christians don't watch (stay awake, spiritually), his return will happen when they aren't expecting it; compare: "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). For just prior to Matthew 24:44, Jesus had suggested that it is possible for Christians to know when he will return and to watch for that return: "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready" (Matthew 24:43-44), just as Paul says: "ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus had just finished saying that he won't return and gather together the church until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), just as Revelation shows that before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the world-reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31).

The Antichrist's world-reign could begin when the Antichrist's followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing robot-image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1), and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and declares himself God (Daniel 11:36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Revelation 13:4-8). Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15).

PaulT said:

Belief in the future rapture doesn't require a belief in a future tribulation period.

Actually, belief in the future rapture does require a belief in a future tribulation period, because the rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the church at the second coming of Jesus Christ: 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

Also, belief in the future rapture does require a belief in a future tribulation period, because the rapture can't occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the tribulation and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8).

Also, belief in the future rapture does require a belief in a future tribulation period, because at Jesus' return to rapture and marry the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20).

PaulT said:

Why must it? Explain the connection. There is no linkage between Matthew, Mark and 2d Thessalonians.

The connection between Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 (and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7-20:6) is that they all refer to the as-yet-unfulfilled second coming of Jesus Christ and the resurrection and rapture (gathering together/catching up together) of the church at that time.

PaulT said:

It's already been pointed out that there is no such individual identified in scripture as "the Antichrist."

Note that the idea of the Antichrist doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Antichrist" in order for it to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the idea of the Trinity doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Trinity" in order for it to be true and supported by scripture.

The individual man commonly called "the Antichrist" is the singular "antichrist" who will come (1 John 2:18), the individual "man of sin" who will sit in a third Jewish temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Daniel 11:36), the human "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and be worshipped by the whole world (Revelation 13:8). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) which will animate the coming Antichrist has been working since the first century (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18,22, 2 John 1:7).

PaulT said:

Why do you insist on retaining a belief in, and, worse, teaching or trying to teach something that is not true?

What has been proven false?

[Bible2]

OneLight said:

Your refusal to accept what I say about what I was talking about . . .

When was your explanation of what you were talking about refused?

OneLight said:

. . . and the continuation of you saying you took my words in context, which is not correct.

Actually, it is correct to say that in post #304 (before your subsequent explanation in post #306) your words in post #300 were taken in their context, because the context of your words in post #300 was your quotation of the attacking post #299 in its entirety without your disagreeing with anything that it said, and your only confirming something that it said. Therefore, all your words in post #300 seemed to do was support the attack of post #299. Therefore, post #300 was replied to accordingly, in post #304.

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But let's avoid this continued distraction from the discussion of the actual subject of this thread. In order that the discussion can move forward, what are your views regarding the scriptural points that have been raised in connection with the subject of this thread, such as the following two points?

1. The rapture can't be near in a pre-trib sense of near, because the rapture won't occur until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27) of Revelation chapters 6-18, which hasn't started yet, and which could take some seven years to transpire.

2. No matter how near or far the rapture is, until it occurs we must all continue to "Watch" (Mark 13:37, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, 1 Corinthians 16:13, Acts 20:31), meaning that we must all continue to "Stay awake", spiritually, and not fall into any unrepentant sin, or into unrepentant laziness, or into apostasy, to the ultimate loss of our salvation at the rapture and judgment of the church at the second coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

[OneLight]

OneLight said:

Your refusal to accept what I say about what I was talking about . . .

When was your explanation of what you were talking about refused?

OneLight said:

. . . and the continuation of you saying you took my words in context, which is not correct.

Actually, it is correct to say that in post #304 (before your subsequent explanation in post #306) your words in post #300 were taken in their context, because the context of your words in post #300 was your quotation of the attacking post #299 in its entirety without your disagreeing with anything that it said, and your only confirming something that it said. Therefore, all your words in post #300 seemed to do was support the attack of post #299. Therefore, post #300 was replied to accordingly, in post #304.

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But let's avoid this continued distraction from the discussion of the actual subject of this thread. In order that the discussion can move forward, what are your views regarding the scriptural points that have been raised in connection with the subject of this thread, such as the following two points?

1. The rapture can't be near in a pre-trib sense of near, because the rapture won't occur until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27) of Revelation chapters 6-18, which hasn't started yet, and which could take some seven years to transpire.

2. No matter how near or far the rapture is, until it occurs we must all continue to "Watch" (Mark 13:37, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, 1 Corinthians 16:13, Acts 20:31), meaning that we must all continue to "Stay awake", spiritually, and not fall into any unrepentant sin, or into unrepentant laziness, or into apostasy, to the ultimate loss of our salvation at the rapture and judgment of the church at the second coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

Sorry Brother, but I am done trying to explain to you how you are wrong. You do not listen and then play ignorant when shown.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Quote the TOS;

Abuse of other posters is not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to, name calling, insulting, harassing, threatening or in any way invading the privacy of another poster. We also strongly discourage giving out personal information such as email addresses, physical addresses and phone numbers on the public boards. Any information given out in private is at your own discretion and risk. (Eph. 4: 29)

Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating. Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God! This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted! Users that cannot respect others will be banned. (Lev. 19:18)

Peace,

Dave