Nearness of the Rapture

[Shiloh62]

My wife opened up the Bible on Saturday morning. God guided her hand to Nehemiah 8:16-9:3. It speaks of the Feast of Tabernacles and the reading of the law. I think God is communicating the very nearness of the Rapture. Even if not this directly, he may be speaking of Ezekiel 37, the re-uniting of the house of Judah and the house of Israel, which precedes Ezekiel 38 & 39. Let us read the words of the Lord and do them; let us also confess our sins before the Lord. It may be he will be gracious and forgive our sins.

I agree. I use the nearness of the rapture as a witness tool at work. I assure my coworkers that if Jesus came on our shift, we could just leave all this work behind and go.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Note that none of those statements mean a pre-Matthew-24-tribulation rapture, or a rapture into the third heaven. For it's only after the tribulation of Matthew 24 that the church will be be gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), and the church will be raptured only as high as the sky (the first heaven) to have a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

Bible2 thanks for the great explanation. If you read the scriptures regarding the end times with out all the pre-tribulation theology floating around our head, then you can clearly see that the pre-trib doctrine holds no water. You would have to add to scripture or bend scripture to make it sound doctrine.

If the pre-trib rapture was such an important event why didn't Christ speak of it when explaining the end time event in Matt 24. In fact Christ spoke in a way the seems suggest that believers will be here to see and experiance such things come to pass.

[lekh l'kha]

Being so close to the rapture means that we are also very close to the time when the beast and his armies will persecute the saints, therefore "And I took the little book out of the angel's hand and ate it up. And it was sweet as honey in my mouth, and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was made bitter."

(Rev 10:10).

Onelight's post shows something about the structure of Mat.24, because verse 9 starts with "Then" (Greek: toteh, "the time of"), and the same word is found 8 times from verse 9 to verse 30, and all the sentences from verse 9 to verse 31 is joined together with the words "and", "but", "for", "therefore".

This shows that the great tribulation mentioned in verse 21 is the same tribulation which the Lord began to mention in verse 9:

"... this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come.

Then (toteh, "the time of") they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand). Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains.

for then shall be great tribulation (elaborating on the tribulation mentioned in verse 9), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.

And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

The fact that all the sentences from verse 9 to verse 31 are joined together by the words "and" "But" "for" and "therefore" demands that we understand that

this is speaking about the same tribulation - and we have a "second witness" to this fact by the word "then" (toteh, "the time of") beginning in verse 9 and being used 8 times from verse 9 to verse 30.

The clear distinction of Mat 24 is:

1. Intoduction (verse 1-3)

2. Birth-pains (verses 4-8).

3. "The time of" ("Then" or Greek "toteh") (verses 9-31).

"Tribulation" in the N.T = what happens to the saints at the hand of the beast and his armies (political authorities of this world).

"Wrath" = what happens to the world when God finally judges it through Christ - after the great tribulation.

"And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation." (Rev 13:7)

Then (after the birth-pains) they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake."

(Mat 24:9)

"I watched, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High. And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." (Dan 7:21-22)

"And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

(Rev 11:3)

"And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months."

(Rev 13:5)

The 7th trumpet says,

"And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever."

(Rev 11:15)

It's in between the sounding of the 6th and 7th trumpets that John says,

"And I took the little book out of the angel's hand and ate it up. And it was sweet as honey in my mouth, and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was made bitter." (Rev 10:10)

Yes, the rapture is near - but so is the great tribulation.

Pharaoh afflicted the Israelites before they were delivered by God's judgment of Pharaoh and his armies.

[Rick-Parker]

FYI ...This is a discussion board. If you don't feel like discussing a subject, then why make a statement that you very well know is controversial? Care to tell me how what I said was indirect? I think it was straight forward. I challenged what you said. It was that simple and I was proven wrong at that. I find it hard to get you to step into a discussion about a statement you made and back it up with scripture, or even your own thoughts, Brother.

1 Peter 3:13-17 (New King James Version)

Suffering for Right and Wrong

And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness

[OneLight]

FYI ...This is a discussion board. If you don't feel like discussing a subject, then why make a statement that you very well know is controversial? Care to tell me how what I said was indirect? I think it was straight forward. I challenged what you said. It was that simple and I was proven wrong at that. I find it hard to get you to step into a discussion about a statement you made and back it up with scripture, or even your own thoughts, Brother.

1 Peter 3:13-17 (New King James Version)

Suffering for Right and Wrong

And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you are blessed. “And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.” But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

Once again OneLight, this is not a discussion about which teaching of the Rapture one holds to. I'm perfectly willing to discuss the nearness of the End Times in this thread, but I'm not willing to hijack it to satisfy your desire to be confrontational because I said I believed in the pre-trib rapture. I don't own you squat, so move on man.

The OP did mention the rapture, so it is about what we hold for an understand, yet I will accept your unwillingness to stand behind what you claim and will not pursue you any further on this matter. Just remember that the rapture is part of the End Times, so do expect to be questioned by others.

God Bless and I do mean that.

[Rick-Parker]

FYI ...This is a discussion board. If you don't feel like discussing a subject, then why make a statement that you very well know is controversial? Care to tell me how what I said was indirect? I think it was straight forward. I challenged what you said. It was that simple and I was proven wrong at that. I find it hard to get you to step into a discussion about a statement you made and back it up with scripture, or even your own thoughts, Brother.

1 Peter 3:13-17 (New King James Version)

Suffering for Right and Wrong

And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness

[wyguy]

wyguy said:

You may find this article by Thomas Ice of interest.

Note that he confirms that the document wouldn't be called "Pseudo (False) Ephraem" if it had really been written by Ephraem: "The word 'Pseudo' (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem"; "there is little support for Ephraem as the author".

Ice said:

The fact that the pre-trib statement occurs in section 2, while the antichrist and tribulation are developed throughout the middle sections, followed by Christ's second coming to the earth in the final section supports a pre-trib sequence.

Note that there's no pre-Matthew-24-tribulation rapture statement in Section 2, as was shown in detail in post #23 of this thread. Also, the pre-battle-of-Armageddon-rapture statement in Section 2 comes after Section 1's reference to the Matthew 24 tribulation: "There will be stirrings of nations and evil reports, pestilences, famines, and earth quakes in various places. All nations will receive captives; there will be wars and rumors of wars. From the rising to the setting of the sun the sword will devour much. The times will be so dangerous that in fear and trembling they will not permit thought of better things, because many will be the oppressions and desolations of regions that are to come".

Ice said:

After learning of Pseudo-Ephraem's rapture statement, I shared it with a number of colleagues. My favorite approach was to simply read the statement, free of any introductory remarks, and ask what they thought. Every person, whether pre-trib or not, concluded that it was some kind of pre-trib statement.

But they would be mistaken, just as, for example, preterists are mistaken when they simply read the statement: "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in the tribulation" (Revelation 1:9; the original Greek has a "the" before "tribulation"). For even though John in the first century referred to his being in "the tribulation", he didn't mean the tribulation of Matthew 24, but the general tribulation which Christians have always had to go through (Acts 14:22, John 16:33).

Just as we are not to read "the tribulation" in Revelation 1:9 as referring to the tribulation of Matthew 24, so we are not to read "the tribulation" in Section 2 of the Pseudo-Ephraem document as referring to the tribulation of Matthew 24.

Ice said:

Section 2 of the sermon begins with a statement about imminency . . .

Section 2 of the document refers only to the writer's mistaken belief in the imminency of the coming of the Antichrist, as the writer mistakenly thought that the first half of the Matthew 24 tribulation had already happened by his time: "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one".

Ice said:

As I break down the rapture statement, notice the following observations:

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered . . ." Gathered where? A later clause says they "are taken to the Lord." Where is the Lord? Earlier in the paragraph the sermon speaks of "the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion. . ." Thus the movement is from the earth toward the Lord who is apparently in heaven

Note that none of those statements mean a pre-Matthew-24-tribulation rapture, or a rapture into the third heaven. For it's only after the tribulation of Matthew 24 that the church will be be gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), and the church will be raptured only as high as the sky (the first heaven) to have a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

Ice said:

The purpose for the gathering was so that they would not "see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of their sins." Here we have the purpose of the tribulation judgments stated and that was to be a time of judgment upon the world because of their sin, thus, the church was to be taken out.

The "confusion" (and the "tribulation") referred to by the writer in Section 2 of the Pseudo-Ephraem document is only the "confusion" of the post-trib battle of Armageddon in Section 10 of the document. For the church will be raptured into the air (and then married to Jesus, Revelation 19:7) only right before the judgment of the whole world at the post-trib battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19:11-21).

Ice said:

Unlike those texts, this sermon has Christians being removed from the time of tribulation.

Actually, the document in no way has Christians being removed from the Matthew 24 tribulation, but repeatedly refers to Christians suffering and dying during that time: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic" (Section 4); "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [cf. Revelation 12:14], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the adders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord" (Section 8); "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord" (Section 9).

The mistake you continually make is there will be Christians on the earth during the Tribulation, yes - but they will be those that missed the Rapture and become converted during the Tribulation. (Many through the preaching of the Two Witnessess, and the 144,000 sealed Jewish evangelists). They will be the ones who will be beheaded rather than take the Mark of the Beast.

And again, the Rapture question is not a salvation issue. If I'm right, I'll have a good laugh at your expense in Heaven. If you're right, I'll apologize if we happen to meet up in one of the Antichrist's concentration camps.

[Guest]

.... But the best part of all will definitely be meeting the One who gave His Life for me and paid the penalty for my sins. I can't wait to thank Him IN PERSON and worship Him forever!!!

2 Timothy 4:8

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. Maranatha! Come quickly, Yeshua!

Yes!

As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.

My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God? Psalms 42:1-2

Kid's Talk!

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Romans 8:15

Yes They Do!

What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. Matthew 10:27

[Jedi4Yahweh]

The mistake you continually make is there will be Christians on the earth during the Tribulation, yes - but they will be those that missed the Rapture and become converted during the Tribulation.

Please show us in scripture where its says precisely that Christians will be taken and those left behind will still have a chance to convert. Please don't quote the left behind series.

(Many through the preaching of the Two Witnessess, and the 144,000 sealed Jewish evangelists). They will be the ones who will be beheaded rather than take the Mark of the Beast.

Where do you get they were beheaded??? It says they were sealed by God.

You forgot to mention the multitude from all nations that no man could number.

Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;

And again, the Rapture question is not a salvation issue. If I'm right, I'll have a good laugh at your expense in Heaven. If you're right, I'll apologize if we happen to meet up in one of the Antichrist's concentration camps.

I agree believing either way is not a salvation issue, but it can be deceiving. Christians need to know what to expect and they need to know that they need to endure until the end or they too can fall away and commit apostasy or be deceived. Jesus warned us of this in Matt 24.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name's sake.

Mat 24:10 And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another. (Taking about Christians stumbling and betraying one another.)

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.

Mat 24:13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

[lekh l'kha]

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