Guest yod Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 It seems somewhat strange that we would relegate the body of Christ to some sort of "parenthesis." I do agree that the "Church" today is not what it was intended to be, far from it. Anything that causes division and separation in the body of Christ by the taking of myriads of names certainly is not of God. I see a difference between the Body of Christ and "the Church" and that difference was instituted in the early centuries after the Ascension. Once home fellowships were put into a "state-church" level by Constantine and became Cathedrals with a hierarchy of Priest and laity, it was no longer run on the model we were given by the faithful Jewish messianic community, While many of the Body of Christ were in those cathedrals, many were also excluded by extra-biblical creeds and declarations of theologians who had no root in the Tenach (what they called "old" testament). In other words, being a Jew and believing in Jesus was made an impossible task by Church edicts and by Jewish edicts. Yeshua said that He came to bring division (Luke 12:51). He will always divide light from darkness, and truth from lies. He will also divide the "body of Christ" from any "church" that isn't following Him. It's happening still today. For it is God's desire that, "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ..." (Eph 1:9-12) It would appear to me that we should be trying to remove those things which separate and divide us rather than continue to scatter abroad. Yes, but you're looking at this all backwards. The Church is made up of jews & gentiles who have come into the covenants and promises given to ISRAEL. They alone are the "House of Judah" and the "House of Israel" to whom a New Covenant was promised and this is what we, the nations, have been joined to. The faithful Remnant of Israel are the physical sons of Jacob and the "true jews" spoken of in Romans 2:29. This new covenant community is how Israel became a blessing to all the nations for "salvation is of the Jews" according to Jesus himself. This new covenant communtiy was the mystery Paul spoke of and what born-again people of the nations are joined to, according to Ephesians 2 & 3. They are the natural branches of the olive tree which gentiles are grafted into, according to Romans 11. They are the physical sons of Jacob who are mentioned in the book of the Revelation. God has a covenant with them, Israel, and gentiles are adopted into it. I have no envy since my adopted status is equal in all ways...yet we each have a distinctive and theirs is an important one. They are the proof He exists at all. His very Name is bound up in the promises He made to them. Is the remnant of Israel synonymous to "church" in your mind? Because if we call the remnant of Israel by a new name (The Church), it conjures images of Popes and Cathedrals and Gentiles with crosses, doesn't it? When European theologians invented a new institution and called it "the Church" they created something which isn't, and I believe can't be, supported by the scriptures. NONE of the words tranlsated as church mean "a specifically christian religious institution of gentiles separate from Israel", yet that is what the definition of "the Church" has been since that word was imposed upon the scriptures. And the fact that you've chosen Ephesians to quote is interesting since it is chapters 2 and 3 of that book which state (and therefore prove) this fact. If "the Church" truly wants to obey Yeshua's wish of us being one (as He and the Father are one - John 17) then they should reject this spiritualized interpretation of Israel, which was devised by Origin in order to separate Israel from their Messiah in the 3rd century. We are one body based on having one King. The title Yeshua was given at the birth is the same title He was executed for....and the only title He accepted while walking on Earth; and that is King of the Jews. He is the unique Son of the God of Israel. Any other Jesus, just ain't Jesus. He is still weeping over Jerusalem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdktlk Posted January 2, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 282 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/30/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2011 It seems somewhat strange that we would relegate the body of Christ to some sort of "parenthesis." I do agree that the "Church" today is not what it was intended to be, far from it. Anything that causes division and separation in the body of Christ by the taking of myriads of names certainly is not of God. I see a difference between the Body of Christ and "the Church" and that difference was instituted in the early centuries after the Ascension. Once home fellowships were put into a "state-church" level by Constantine and became Cathedrals with a hierarchy of Priest and laity, it was no longer run on the model we were given by the Jewish people. where all people of faith in Yeshua were in community with no denominational barriers. While many of the Body of Christ were in those cathedrals, many were also excluded by extra-biblical creeds and declarations of theologians who had no root in the Tenach (what they called "old" testament) Yeshua said that He came to bring division (Luke 12:51). He will always divide light from darkness, and truth from lies. He will also divide the "body of Christ" from any "church" that isn't following Him. It's happening still today. For it is God's desire that, "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ..." (Eph 1:9-12) It would appear to me that we should be trying to remove those things which separate and divide us rather than continue to scatter abroad. Yes, but you're looking at this all backwards. The Church is made up of jews & gentiles who have come into the covenants and promises given to ISRAEL. The Remnant of Israel is what born-again people are joined to. Is the Remnant of Israel synonymous to "church" in your mind? If not, then you have been hoodwinked by european theologians who redefined words according to definitions which would suit their theology. And if you call the Remnant of Israel by a new name (The Church), it conjures images of Popes and Cathedrals and Gentiles with crosses, doesn't it? When European theologians invented a new institution and called it "the Church" they created something which isn't, and can't be, supported by the scriptures. NONE of the words tranlsated as church mean "a specifically christian religious institution of gentiles separate from Israel", yet that is what the definition of "the Church" has been since that word was imposed upon the scriptures. And the fact that you've chosen Ephesians to quote is interesting since it is chapters 2 and 3 of that book which state (and therefore prove) this fact. If "the Church" truly wants to obey Yeshua's wish of us being one (as He and the Father are one - John 17) then they should reject this spiritualized interpretation of Israel, which was devised by Origin in order to separate Israel from their Messiah in the 3rd century. We are one body based on having one King and the only title He accepted while walking on Earth was King of the Jews. He is still weeping over Jerusalem. Why wouldn't all of His people do the same? I do agree that the word Church is greatly misconstrued. As it is the assembly of believers with Him in our midst which the Lord desires. When we, as believers gather in His Name, not in His Name with some other name tagged on, for no man can serve two masters. However until we are brought to see by the Lord the seriousness of this matter we will continue, as those in Corinth, to remain carnal and walk as men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 And there are just sooooo many places in the scriptures where these things are said and confirmed over and over and over that I truly truly truly can't understand why this seems to be hidden from so many of my christian brothers and sisters. Would someone please help me out with this??? I mean, there are so many I could start posting one passage at a time and keep going for weeks. How about this one? Here is where the promise of a New Covenant was made. The FIRST time this concept appeared in world history, it was associated with a promise from God to the Jewish people. Jeremiah 31 31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted January 2, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.96 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted January 2, 2011 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kills the prophets, and stones them which are sent unto you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, You shall not see me henceforth, till you shall say, Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord." (Mat 23:37-39) In all that is said how can we reconcile these words of the Lord Jesus with natural Israel being, in this day, a work of the Lord? The key here is the part I put in bold. When will Jesus be seen again by anyone but at His return? Thus, we see a prophecy here, that His coming again is tied into Jerusalem (the Jerusalem that Jesus was speaking to) saying of Yeshua (Jesus), "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord." So how important is it to have Jews belonging to Jerusalem in the End of Days? Looks to me like they are tied together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 And the fact that you've chosen Ephesians to quote is interesting since it is chapters 2 and 3 of that book which state (and therefore prove) this fact. If "the Church" truly wants to obey Yeshua's wish of us being one (as He and the Father are one - John 17) then they should reject this spiritualized interpretation of Israel, which was devised by Origin in order to separate Israel from their Messiah in the 3rd century. We are one body based on having one King. The title Yeshua was given at the birth is the same title He was executed for....and the only title He accepted while walking on Earth; and that is King of the Jews. He is the unique Son of the God of Israel. Any other Jesus, just ain't Jesus. He is still weeping over Jerusalem..... Amen! And He Is Still Raising Up Men And Woman With A Heart After His Heart And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Acts 13:22 Praying! Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. Psalms 122:6 >>>>>()<<<<< Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boaries Posted February 6, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 9 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/23/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2011 This was a very logical response, I appreciate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted February 6, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Just what does all this bickering have to do with where I stand on Israel? If I tell a Jewish person that Yeshua is Moschiach and he tells me to go you know what myself, he's an unbeliever, regardless of whether he's ethnically Jewish or not. Israel is full of unbelievers who don't believe Jesus is Messiah. Many Jewish people are liberal, some are even socialist. At this point, Israel is not a believing nation. Will she become a believing nation in the future? Perhaps Regardless, I will support Israel because they are currently more righteous than the Muslims who oppress them. May God preserve Israel and save them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted February 13, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.12 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2011 Just what does all this bickering have to do with where I stand on Israel? If I tell a Jewish person that Yeshua is Moschiach and he tells me to go you know what myself, he's an unbeliever, regardless of whether he's ethnically Jewish or not. Israel is full of unbelievers who don't believe Jesus is Messiah. Many Jewish people are liberal, some are even socialist. At this point, Israel is not a believing nation. Will she become a believing nation in the future? Perhaps Regardless, I will support Israel because they are currently more righteous than the Muslims who oppress them. May God preserve Israel and save them. Im glad top see someone who knows who the seed of braham is and that the promises were made to that seed. But there is much written about the Israeli goverment and the now jewish state of Israel. According to scripture,it is anitichrist.It is the little horn upon the seven headed beast . If you are interested,I can show this to you.But I would start another thread for it cause Im not going to highjack yours. It would become a debate between me and those who support the beast. Israel is the 'little horn'? Interesting..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Welcome! ____________ To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. Titus 3:2 ____________ I'm glad top see someone who knows who the seed of Abraham is and that the promises were made to that seed. But there is much written about The Israeli Government and the now Jewish State of Israel. According to scripture, it is Antichrist. It is the little horn upon the seven headed beast . If you are interested, I can show this to you. But I would start another thread for it cause I'm not going to highjack yours. It would become a debate between me and those who support the beast.... Dear One Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:43-45 A Twist In Time Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah 23:5-6 Is Not A Crime For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:25-29 However.... He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11 Jesus Saves In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zechariah 12:8-14 Men Don't ____________ Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe ____________ I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. Isaiah 62:6-7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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