Lucifer?

[sdktlk]

Questions such as:

1) "Why do we say that the passage in Isaiah 14:12 IS Satan, when the verse in and of itself is mistranslated and is not a proper name at all?"

2) "Why would we say that Satan is a fallen "angel of light" when I can find no where in Scripture to back that up?"

3) "Why would we suppose that Satan was cast out of heaven before the foundation of the world, if we cannot verify that through Scripture?"

4) "Why, if he and his angels were indeed cast out before the foundation of the world, why do we see him being able to come before the throne of God in Job 1:6 and 2:1?"

5) "I wonder why we see a lying spirit in the presence of, and having a conversation with, the Lord in 1Kings 22 and 2Chronicles 18?"

6) "We see, the "war in heaven" in Revelation 12:9-13 and wonder how that could be an event that happened before there was ever a man?"

Do any of these question plague any of you, are am I the only one?

Well, none of these questions plague me.

Maybe "plague" was a bad choice of words. I guess the proper would be concern. So, do any of these questions cause you concern, and if not why not?

[other one]

Questions such as:

1) "Why do we say that the passage in Isaiah 14:12 IS Satan, when the verse in and of itself is mistranslated and is not a proper name at all?"

2) "Why would we say that Satan is a fallen "angel of light" when I can find no where in Scripture to back that up?"

3) "Why would we suppose that Satan was cast out of heaven before the foundation of the world, if we cannot verify that through Scripture?"

4) "Why, if he and his angels were indeed cast out before the foundation of the world, why do we see him being able to come before the throne of God in Job 1:6 and 2:1?"

5) "I wonder why we see a lying spirit in the presence of, and having a conversation with, the Lord in 1Kings 22 and 2Chronicles 18?"

6) "We see, the "war in heaven" in Revelation 12:9-13 and wonder how that could be an event that happened before there was ever a man?"

Do any of these question plague any of you, are am I the only one?

Well, none of these questions plague me.

Maybe "plague" was a bad choice of words. I guess the proper would be concern. So, do any of these questions cause you concern, and if not why not?

None of the questions concern me. First of all none of them concern whether or not I am saved, so they are secondary knowledge to know. the verses in Ezekiel are discussing a being that was a covering cherub, and was present in the garden, and existed before the earth was created in Genesis. It really doesn't matter to me whether we call him the devil, or Satan, or Lucifer or butt head....... we're still talking about the same entity. We're told that we see and interface with angels in this life and we would not know it so I do not have a problem with him or any other angel being the king or head of a state., It's simple metaphysical to look at each scripture and see how it fits into the rest of scripture and reconciling the differences. Sometimes one has to go back to the Hebrew and Greek to see some of the things and how they relate.

While Satan was removed from his position as covering cherub, it's very obvious to me that he still has access to heaven. It will not be until the very end that he is confined to this dimension and thrown out of heaven/heavens. That time will come in the very near future.

God is using our world and our existence as a lesson to the entire universe as to the outcome of letting something like Lucifer control anything. He's going to let him pretty much destroy everything before he steps in and puts a stop to all the nonsense. those of us who have chosen to follow Jesus will be rewarded in the end and all the hassle we've been through won't really seem that big of a deal.

The second thing God is doing is making a group of entities to judge the angels. While God himself truly is capable of doing so, Him being a just and fair entity is not going to be the one/ones to condemn the angels. He even made us unqualified to be judges in the beginning as to not knowing right from wrong, and it was Lucifer/Satan himself that made it possible for us to be qualified as the jury to set in judgment of their rebellion.

I don't have a problem with the questions because I have read the Bible many times and read/listened to the new testament hundreds of times over the past 50 years. I have also read through the books such as Enoch, Jasher and Jubilees and decided though they are not inspired of God, they are information that was put down by people who followed God and are as likely to be based on fact as much as is the news in the New York times. I have also looked very deep into the dark side and know from personal first hand experience how it works and the overall objectives of their plans..

So I have a complete story structure of belief from before creation of the Universe and for eternity after it's destroyed and rebuilt.

I have Jesus and am a freely volunteered bond servant to him, so I have no long term worries. I just have to manage to suffer through the next few years until my master returns. Like Paul I do not have a problem with being sent into his presence before that time. I do need to stay here for something or else he'd not have spared my life so many times.

[David333]

Questions such as:

1) "Why do we say that the passage in Isaiah 14:12 IS Satan, when the verse in and of itself is mistranslated and is not a proper name at all?"

2) "Why would we say that Satan is a fallen "angel of light" when I can find no where in Scripture to back that up?"

3) "Why would we suppose that Satan was cast out of heaven before the foundation of the world, if we cannot verify that through Scripture?"

4) "Why, if he and his angels were indeed cast out before the foundation of the world, why do we see him being able to come before the throne of God in Job 1:6 and 2:1?"

5) "I wonder why we see a lying spirit in the presence of, and having a conversation with, the Lord in 1Kings 22 and 2Chronicles 18?"

6) "We see, the "war in heaven" in Revelation 12:9-13 and wonder how that could be an event that happened before there was ever a man?"

Do any of these question plague any of you, are am I the only one?

Well, none of these questions plague me.

Maybe "plague" was a bad choice of words. I guess the proper would be concern. So, do any of these questions cause you concern, and if not why not?

None of the questions concern me. First of all none of them concern whether or not I am saved, so they are secondary knowledge to know. the verses in Ezekiel are discussing a being that was a covering cherub, and was present in the garden, and existed before the earth was created in Genesis. It really doesn't matter to me whether we call him the devil, or Satan, or Lucifer or butt head....... we're still talking about the same entity. We're told that we see and interface with angels in this life and we would not know it so I do not have a problem with him or any other angel being the king or head of a state., It's simple metaphysical to look at each scripture and see how it fits into the rest of scripture and reconciling the differences. Sometimes one has to go back to the Hebrew and Greek to see some of the things and how they relate.

While Satan was removed from his position as covering cherub, it's very obvious to me that he still has access to heaven. It will not be until the very end that he is confined to this dimension and thrown out of heaven/heavens. That time will come in the very near future.

God is using our world and our existence as a lesson to the entire universe as to the outcome of letting something like Lucifer control anything. He's going to let him pretty much destroy everything before he steps in and puts a stop to all the nonsense. those of us who have chosen to follow Jesus will be rewarded in the end and all the hassle we've been through won't really seem that big of a deal.

The second thing God is doing is making a group of entities to judge the angels. While God himself truly is capable of doing so, Him being a just and fair entity is not going to be the one/ones to condemn the angels. He even made us unqualified to be judges in the beginning as to not knowing right from wrong, and it was Lucifer/Satan himself that made it possible for us to be qualified as the jury to set in judgment of their rebellion.

I don't have a problem with the questions because I have read the Bible many times and read/listened to the new testament hundreds of times over the past 50 years. I have also read through the books such as Enoch, Jasher and Jubilees and decided though they are not inspired of God, they are information that was put down by people who followed God and are as likely to be based on fact as much as is the news in the New York times. I have also looked very deep into the dark side and know from personal first hand experience how it works and the overall objectives of their plans..

So I have a complete story structure of belief from before creation of the Universe and for eternity after it's destroyed and rebuilt.

I have Jesus and am a freely volunteered bond servant to him, so I have no long term worries. I just have to manage to suffer through the next few years until my master returns. Like Paul I do not have a problem with being sent into his presence before that time. I do need to stay here for something or else he'd not have spared my life so many times.

AMEN!!!

[nebula]

It really doesn't matter to me whether we call him the devil, or Satan, or Lucifer or butt head.......

Thanks, I needed that!

[Guest]

[Rick-Parker]

Do any of these question plague any of you, are am I the only one?

No. It has nothing to do with obtaining salvation nor our mission of spreading the Gospel to the ends of the Earth. I have more to learn from Scripture than the name of the leader of the angelic revolt against God in Heaven, when it happened, and if he stills has access to the Father. I am more interested in striving to be more like Christ than in wasting time on such things, which we can never know the complete answers to until we get to Heaven. Let alone possibly confuse one who still drinks milk on the way to eating meat. Let us talk about helping those move forward instead of wasting time on irrelevant trivia.

[other one]

Telll ya'll what. Next time I see Lucifer I'll ask him about these questions and give you all feed back. Since I'm not in any hurry to visit the old boy, It might take a while........... I hope.

[goldust59]

The questions posed "concern" me in regard to learning what God is wanting us to know from these passages of scripture. This thread was for discussing views on Lucifer, not obtaining salvation or our mission of spreading the gospel. I agree we have many things to learn from the scripture & was under the impression that the forums were for discussing views & hopefully learning from each other as we are all in various stages of the knowledge of the scripture. (milk, meat) I have to say here that NOTHING in the scripture should be considered "irrelevant trivia". (see Romans 15:4, 2Timothy 3:16,17) If God saw fit to record something then He meant it to be there for a reason. Sometimes we read over things and dont "see" what is being said because we have decided we already know. Cant tell you how many times something "jumps" out at me from scripture I have lovingly read many, many times. The scriptures are layered with meaning and we need to search them out. Now, back to topic; Adam was given the job of "keeping" (covering?) the garden. My understanding is that Adam was the one that fell from his position with God when he willingly ate of the tree that would make him "like God".

[nebula]

16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'

How would this describe Adam?

[sdktlk]

16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'

How would this describe Adam?

In every way. It was because of Adam's "fall" that the curse came upon the earth, else-wise there would be no natural catastrophes, floods, hurricanes, etc. It is the very nature of Adam, which we inherited, that has shook kingdoms and destroyed cities. It was Adam that caused this world to become a wilderness. When Adam died WE ALL died in him, and he had no ability to open the house of the Adamic man and allow us, his prisoners, to go home. But, thank God for the Lord Jesus, the Last Adam, for His sacrifice and faithfulness unto death. For, "When He ascended up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men." (Eph 4:8) Now, for the first time since Adam fell can we go home again. THANK YOU JESUS!