Lucifer?

[David333]

16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'

How would this describe Adam?

In every way. It was because of Adam's "fall" that the curse came upon the earth, else-wise there would be no natural catastrophes, floods, hurricanes, etc. It is the very nature of Adam, which we inherited, that has shook kingdoms and destroyed cities. It was Adam that caused this world to become a wilderness. When Adam died WE ALL died in him, and he had no ability to open the house of the Adamic man and allow us, his prisoners, to go home. But, thank God for the Lord Jesus, the Last Adam, for His sacrifice and faithfulness unto death. For, "When He ascended up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men." (Eph 4:8) Now, for the first time since Adam fell can we go home again. THANK YOU JESUS!

What do you think it's talking about when it says that, He led captivity captive?

[other one]

16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'

How would this describe Adam?

In every way. It was because of Adam's "fall" that the curse came upon the earth, else-wise there would be no natural catastrophes, floods, hurricanes, etc. It is the very nature of Adam, which we inherited, that has shook kingdoms and destroyed cities. It was Adam that caused this world to become a wilderness. When Adam died WE ALL died in him, and he had no ability to open the house of the Adamic man and allow us, his prisoners, to go home. But, thank God for the Lord Jesus, the Last Adam, for His sacrifice and faithfulness unto death. For, "When He ascended up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men." (Eph 4:8) Now, for the first time since Adam fell can we go home again. THANK YOU JESUS!

that's a real stretch for me sdktlk. I don't think I can make the trip from where I am to where you are. Sin did come into the world by tha actions of Adam, but it was the work of Lucifer/Satan that set it in motion. It was actually Eve that brought Adams attention to the fruit, and was a living example that since she was not dead that it must not be true that they wold die. I can only imagine the confusion in Adam's mind when he saw that she had eaten and was alive.

I don't see how Adam could be an evil person since he couldn't have known right from wrong. He simply didn't do what God had told him to do. Actually had they not eaten of the fruit, thay nor their decendants would not know right from wrong and we would not be qualified to judge the angels when the time comes to do so.

So I say that all of this is squarely on the sholders of the entity that we refer to as Satan/Lucifer/whathisname, and was because of this enttiie's actions; and was all within the will of the Father from the very beginning..

[nebula]

16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'

How would this describe Adam?

In every way. It was because of Adam's "fall" that the curse came upon the earth, else-wise there would be no natural catastrophes, floods, hurricanes, etc. It is the very nature of Adam, which we inherited, that has shook kingdoms and destroyed cities. It was Adam that caused this world to become a wilderness. When Adam died WE ALL died in him, and he had no ability to open the house of the Adamic man and allow us, his prisoners, to go home. But, thank God for the Lord Jesus, the Last Adam, for His sacrifice and faithfulness unto death. For, "When He ascended up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men." (Eph 4:8) Now, for the first time since Adam fell can we go home again. THANK YOU JESUS!

Well, when I think of Adam, I don't think of someone who made the earth tremble, shook kingdoms, made the world a wilderness (wasn't the world outside of the Garden already a wilderness?), destroyed cities, nor did not open the house of prisoners.

Not opening the house of prisoners implies the ability to open the house of prisoners, and how did Adam have that?

I too believe you are stretching things. Yeah, I know you believe it was the Holy Spirit, but I've had too many bad experiences with people promoting strange stuff under the claim of being taught by the Holy Spirit and needing no man to teach him.

[enoob57]

Questions such as:

"why do we say that the passage in Isaiah 14:12 Is Satan, when the verse in and of itself is mistranslated and not a proper name at all?

This context is to the king of Babylon and gives insight to the heart of the future ruler "man of sin" spoken of by Paul or as anti- Christ spoken of by John

[sdktlk]

16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'

How would this describe Adam?

In every way. It was because of Adam's "fall" that the curse came upon the earth, else-wise there would be no natural catastrophes, floods, hurricanes, etc. It is the very nature of Adam, which we inherited, that has shook kingdoms and destroyed cities. It was Adam that caused this world to become a wilderness. When Adam died WE ALL died in him, and he had no ability to open the house of the Adamic man and allow us, his prisoners, to go home. But, thank God for the Lord Jesus, the Last Adam, for His sacrifice and faithfulness unto death. For, "When He ascended up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men." (Eph 4:8) Now, for the first time since Adam fell can we go home again. THANK YOU JESUS!

that's a real stretch for me sdktlk. I don't think I can make the trip from where I am to where you are. Sin did come into the world by tha actions of Adam, but it was the work of Lucifer/Satan that set it in motion. It was actually Eve that brought Adams attention to the fruit, and was a living example that since she was not dead that it must not be true that they wold die. I can only imagine the confusion in Adam's mind when he saw that she had eaten and was alive.

I don't see how Adam could be an evil person since he couldn't have known right from wrong. He simply didn't do what God had told him to do. Actually had they not eaten of the fruit, thay nor their decendants would not know right from wrong and we would not be qualified to judge the angels when the time comes to do so.

So I say that all of this is squarely on the sholders of the entity that we refer to as Satan/Lucifer/whathisname, and was because of this enttiie's actions; and was all within the will of the Father from the very beginning..

We read, "And Adam WAS NOT deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1Tim 2:14) The response you gave as to Adam's responsibility is the same one he gave God, "And the man said, The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." (Gen 3:12) It's all her fault God. Satan, in and of himself can do nothing, he is the tempter, it is Adam, the nature of, that has to take action to destroy something.

We seem to forget that "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is not the knowledge of true good and true evil. It simply gave Adam the ability to start making those determinations in and of himself outside the council of God. He did have the knowledge of True Good and true evil before he ate. God had said, "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, BEHOLD, IT WAS VERY GOOD. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." (Gen 1:29-30) The LORD God also said, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou SHALL NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Gen 2:16-17) Here we discover the knowledge of true good and evil. To obey God is good, not to obey is evil. Adam has a choice to make, just as we do.

I write these things, not to be "right," but try to cause us to think. If this is the case, and we have been misdirected, what other fallacies have been fostered upon us by the church systems in which we have been raised up. It is important for we then need to, before God, "prove all things (and) hold fast that which IS GOOD." (1Thes 5:21)

[other one]

16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'

How would this describe Adam?

In every way. It was because of Adam's "fall" that the curse came upon the earth, else-wise there would be no natural catastrophes, floods, hurricanes, etc. It is the very nature of Adam, which we inherited, that has shook kingdoms and destroyed cities. It was Adam that caused this world to become a wilderness. When Adam died WE ALL died in him, and he had no ability to open the house of the Adamic man and allow us, his prisoners, to go home. But, thank God for the Lord Jesus, the Last Adam, for His sacrifice and faithfulness unto death. For, "When He ascended up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men." (Eph 4:8) Now, for the first time since Adam fell can we go home again. THANK YOU JESUS!

that's a real stretch for me sdktlk. I don't think I can make the trip from where I am to where you are. Sin did come into the world by tha actions of Adam, but it was the work of Lucifer/Satan that set it in motion. It was actually Eve that brought Adams attention to the fruit, and was a living example that since she was not dead that it must not be true that they wold die. I can only imagine the confusion in Adam's mind when he saw that she had eaten and was alive.

I don't see how Adam could be an evil person since he couldn't have known right from wrong. He simply didn't do what God had told him to do. Actually had they not eaten of the fruit, thay nor their decendants would not know right from wrong and we would not be qualified to judge the angels when the time comes to do so.

So I say that all of this is squarely on the sholders of the entity that we refer to as Satan/Lucifer/whathisname, and was because of this enttiie's actions; and was all within the will of the Father from the very beginning..

We read, "And Adam WAS NOT deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1Tim 2:14) The response you gave as to Adam's responsibility is the same one he gave God, "And the man said, The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." (Gen 3:12) It's all her fault God. Satan, in and of himself can do nothing, he is the tempter, it is Adam, the nature of, that has to take action to destroy something.

We seem to forget that "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is not the knowledge of true good and true evil. It simply gave Adam the ability to start making those determinations in and of himself outside the council of God. He did have the knowledge of True Good and true evil before he ate. God had said, "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, BEHOLD, IT WAS VERY GOOD. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." (Gen 1:29-30) The LORD God also said, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou SHALL NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Gen 2:16-17) Here we discover the knowledge of true good and evil. To obey God is good, not to obey is evil. Adam has a choice to make, just as we do.

I write these things, not to be "right," but try to cause us to think. If this is the case, and we have been misdirected, what other fallacies have been fostered upon us by the church systems in which we have been raised up. It is important for we then need to, before God, "prove all things (and) hold fast that which IS GOOD." (1Thes 5:21)

You are adding words and thoughts that are not in scripture.

[sdktlk]

16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'

How would this describe Adam?

In every way. It was because of Adam's "fall" that the curse came upon the earth, else-wise there would be no natural catastrophes, floods, hurricanes, etc. It is the very nature of Adam, which we inherited, that has shook kingdoms and destroyed cities. It was Adam that caused this world to become a wilderness. When Adam died WE ALL died in him, and he had no ability to open the house of the Adamic man and allow us, his prisoners, to go home. But, thank God for the Lord Jesus, the Last Adam, for His sacrifice and faithfulness unto death. For, "When He ascended up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men." (Eph 4:8) Now, for the first time since Adam fell can we go home again. THANK YOU JESUS!

that's a real stretch for me sdktlk. I don't think I can make the trip from where I am to where you are. Sin did come into the world by tha actions of Adam, but it was the work of Lucifer/Satan that set it in motion. It was actually Eve that brought Adams attention to the fruit, and was a living example that since she was not dead that it must not be true that they wold die. I can only imagine the confusion in Adam's mind when he saw that she had eaten and was alive.

I don't see how Adam could be an evil person since he couldn't have known right from wrong. He simply didn't do what God had told him to do. Actually had they not eaten of the fruit, thay nor their decendants would not know right from wrong and we would not be qualified to judge the angels when the time comes to do so.

So I say that all of this is squarely on the sholders of the entity that we refer to as Satan/Lucifer/whathisname, and was because of this enttiie's actions; and was all within the will of the Father from the very beginning..

We read, "And Adam WAS NOT deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1Tim 2:14) The response you gave as to Adam's responsibility is the same one he gave God, "And the man said, The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." (Gen 3:12) It's all her fault God. Satan, in and of himself can do nothing, he is the tempter, it is Adam, the nature of, that has to take action to destroy something.

We seem to forget that "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is not the knowledge of true good and true evil. It simply gave Adam the ability to start making those determinations in and of himself outside the council of God. He did have the knowledge of True Good and true evil before he ate. God had said, "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, BEHOLD, IT WAS VERY GOOD. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." (Gen 1:29-30) The LORD God also said, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou SHALL NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Gen 2:16-17) Here we discover the knowledge of true good and evil. To obey God is good, not to obey is evil. Adam has a choice to make, just as we do.

I write these things, not to be "right," but try to cause us to think. If this is the case, and we have been misdirected, what other fallacies have been fostered upon us by the church systems in which we have been raised up. It is important for we then need to, before God, "prove all things (and) hold fast that which IS GOOD." (1Thes 5:21)

You are adding words and thoughts that are not in scripture.

???

Edited January 18, 2011 by sdktlk

[other one]

16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'

How would this describe Adam?

In every way. It was because of Adam's "fall" that the curse came upon the earth, else-wise there would be no natural catastrophes, floods, hurricanes, etc. It is the very nature of Adam, which we inherited, that has shook kingdoms and destroyed cities. It was Adam that caused this world to become a wilderness. When Adam died WE ALL died in him, and he had no ability to open the house of the Adamic man and allow us, his prisoners, to go home. But, thank God for the Lord Jesus, the Last Adam, for His sacrifice and faithfulness unto death. For, "When He ascended up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men." (Eph 4:8) Now, for the first time since Adam fell can we go home again. THANK YOU JESUS!

that's a real stretch for me sdktlk. I don't think I can make the trip from where I am to where you are. Sin did come into the world by tha actions of Adam, but it was the work of Lucifer/Satan that set it in motion. It was actually Eve that brought Adams attention to the fruit, and was a living example that since she was not dead that it must not be true that they wold die. I can only imagine the confusion in Adam's mind when he saw that she had eaten and was alive.

I don't see how Adam could be an evil person since he couldn't have known right from wrong. He simply didn't do what God had told him to do. Actually had they not eaten of the fruit, thay nor their decendants would not know right from wrong and we would not be qualified to judge the angels when the time comes to do so.

So I say that all of this is squarely on the sholders of the entity that we refer to as Satan/Lucifer/whathisname, and was because of this enttiie's actions; and was all within the will of the Father from the very beginning..

We read, "And Adam WAS NOT deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1Tim 2:14) The response you gave as to Adam's responsibility is the same one he gave God, "And the man said, The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." (Gen 3:12) It's all her fault God. Satan, in and of himself can do nothing, he is the tempter, it is Adam, the nature of, that has to take action to destroy something.

We seem to forget that "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is not the knowledge of true good and true evil. It simply gave Adam the ability to start making those determinations in and of himself outside the council of God. He did have the knowledge of True Good and true evil before he ate. God had said, "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, BEHOLD, IT WAS VERY GOOD. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." (Gen 1:29-30) The LORD God also said, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou SHALL NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Gen 2:16-17) Here we discover the knowledge of true good and evil. To obey God is good, not to obey is evil. Adam has a choice to make, just as we do.

I write these things, not to be "right," but try to cause us to think. If this is the case, and we have been misdirected, what other fallacies have been fostered upon us by the church systems in which we have been raised up. It is important for we then need to, before God, "prove all things (and) hold fast that which IS GOOD." (1Thes 5:21)

You are adding words and thoughts that are not in scripture.

???

They didn't know the difference between good and evil..... you're adding true to things to changre the context of the sentence. They didn't evern understand that they didn't have cloths on and that knowledge came to them after eating of the fruit.

Adam knew that God had told him not to eat of the tree, and there isn't any excuse for him to have done so. but I also look at the fact that he saw Eve eat of the tree and not die and have to take that into considerstion. Satan confused the situation and both Adam and Eve made wrong desisions and we all do pay the price for that decision....... but I am saying that it was a set up from the begining and was meant to be so..... and ultimately it is the angels that will suffer the ultimate end of Adam's actions.

[nebula]

but I am saying that it was a set up from the begining and was meant to be so..... and ultimately it is the angels that will suffer the ultimate end of Adam's actions.

More than just that.

There would be no reason for the Incarnation and Redemption and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us had the fall never taken place.

[sdktlk]

but I am saying that it was a set up from the begining and was meant to be so..... and ultimately it is the angels that will suffer the ultimate end of Adam's actions.

More than just that.

There would be no reason for the Incarnation and Redemption and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us had the fall never taken place.

That is absolutely true. It was ALL God's plan from the beginning. The questions posed on this thread were not designed to cause us to be looking AT Satan so much as they were designed to cause us to think about why and where did a mistranslation of Scripture in Isaiah 14:12 take place. And why has such a "doctrine," which states Satan is a "fallen angel," been allowed to take such root in the assembly? Satan is what he is: he was, in the Words of our Lord, a murderer and a liar from the beginning. (Jn 8:44)