Matthitjah Posted January 19, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 19, 2011 Brothher, You have yet to reprove your assertions with Scripture while others have offered their understanding using scripture to support scripture. God never gives a revelation that does not line up with His Word. 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. Please expound on how Adam fit's the title that you assert of "Light Bearer". In the Hebrew the root word for "heylel" which is the Word used for Lucifer in this portion of scripture is "halal" wich also means to boast, to shine forth, to rave, to foolishly clamour. I'm not getting how Adam fell from heaven either, positionally he was on the earth in the Garden. Please expound on this as well. peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David333 Posted January 19, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 47 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/10/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1976 Share Posted January 19, 2011 An idol, by definition, as I explained, is an "idea or fancy" which we worship that is not the Truth. If anyone worships their beliefs, there is a problem - even if the belief is truth. Do you worship your beliefs? Worship means to embrace, hold dear, speak well of, etc. It is these phantoms, these ideas or fancies that cloud our vision and make us less able to see the Truth. Do you "embrace, hold dear, speak well" of your beliefs? If so, your beliefs are idols. My goal was very simple: it was to get us to consider, rather than follow beaten paths. I was trying to spark investigation by the questions set forth in the beginning of this string, not to cause us to defend our stance. Did you ever see me defending the "Lucifer" position? I don't know if this is the first message board you have been on, but I'd recommend you build relationships on the boards before you dump on people with your superior knowledge of Scripture. (That's how it comes across.) When people see that you are a caring person, they will be more likely to engage in true dialogue. When a stranger walks in the door coming to teach us and straighten us out (as you did), it turns everyone off. AMEN!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 19, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,077 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,824 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Online Share Posted January 19, 2011 An idol, by definition, as I explained, is an "idea or fancy" which we worship that is not the Truth. If anyone worships their beliefs, there is a problem - even if the belief is truth. Do you worship your beliefs? Worship means to embrace, hold dear, speak well of, etc. It is these phantoms, these ideas or fancies that cloud our vision and make us less able to see the Truth. Do you "embrace, hold dear, speak well" of your beliefs? If so, your beliefs are idols. My goal was very simple: it was to get us to consider, rather than follow beaten paths. I was trying to spark investigation by the questions set forth in the beginning of this string, not to cause us to defend our stance. Did you ever see me defending the "Lucifer" position? I don't know if this is the first message board you have been on, but I'd recommend you build relationships on the boards before you dump on people with your superior knowledge of Scripture. (That's how it comes across.) When people see that you are a caring person, they will be more likely to engage in true dialogue. When a stranger walks in the door coming to teach us and straighten us out (as you did), it turns everyone off. We should not take it personal when someone speaks differently than we have been taught, I have had to change my thoughts plenty throughout the years. And, before the Lord I'm sure there are many adjustments yet to be made. Again, the things said are not designed to dump on people. If anyone has been dumped on it's me. It is the dogma's of the system that I call into question: once more, it is not to put anyone down. Yours in Christ. You really should rethink what Neb has said here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdktlk Posted January 19, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 282 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/30/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Brothher, You have yet to reprove your assertions with Scripture while others have offered their understanding using scripture to support scripture. God never gives a revelation that does not line up with His Word. 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. Please expound on how Adam fit's the title that you assert of "Light Bearer". In the Hebrew the root word for "heylel" which is the Word used for Lucifer in this portion of scripture is "halal" wich also means to boast, to shine forth, to rave, to foolishly clamour. I'm not getting how Adam fell from heaven either, positionally he was on the earth in the Garden. Please expound on this as well. peace, Dave Positionally, that is physically, the Lord Jesus was on earth but we hear Him say, "And no man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (Jn 3:13) Physically on earth spiritually in heaven. Have we not all been, "...raised...up together, and made...sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." (Eph 2:6) By these things we see that if Jesus (I say this for example only) had not been faithful and had fallen, His fall would have been "from heaven." Additionally, if we do not walk in the light and remain in the place spiritually where the Lord has placed us we too "fall." Heylel means most directly, by all the Hebrew references I have looked at, "(in the sense of brightness); the morning star or shining one." Yes Adam was on the earth physically, but spiritually he could have been no other place but "in heaven" until he fell. Insofar as being the "light bearer" the Lord Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (Jn 8:12) and He is "the last Adam" (1Cor 15:45) That being the case then it would stand to reason that "the first Adam" was also the light of the world until the fall. I just can't see Satan being classified as "son of the dayspring/dawn/morning" And I can't find anywhere else in Scripture that gives that kind of descriptive picture of an angel, fallen or otherwise, can you? I guess we all do agree that the first Adam "fell" from grace though, or am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted January 19, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Positionally, that is physically, the Lord Jesus was on earth but we hear Him say, "And no man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (Jn 3:13) Physically on earth spiritually in heaven. You make it sound as if you do not believe Jesus pre-existed before His birth on Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdktlk Posted January 19, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 282 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/30/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Positionally, that is physically, the Lord Jesus was on earth but we hear Him say, "And no man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (Jn 3:13) Physically on earth spiritually in heaven. You make it sound as if you do not believe Jesus pre-existed before His birth on Earth. Just quoting the Lord in that He said He was positionally IN Heaven even as He spoke. Why would we think that He wasn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted January 19, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Just quoting the Lord in that He said He was positionally IN Heaven even as He spoke. Why would we think that He wasn't? How do you read this in that verse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdktlk Posted January 19, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 282 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/30/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Just quoting the Lord in that He said He was positionally IN Heaven even as He spoke. Why would we think that He wasn't? How do you read this in that verse? If you can't SEE what He said then how can I possibly make it clear to you. Edited January 19, 2011 by sdktlk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted January 19, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 19, 2011 Brother, Yes Adam was on the earth physically, but spiritually he could have been no other place but "in heaven" until he fell. That's not what Scripture say's. Please provide me a verse for reproof. Are you stating that Adam pre-existed as a Spirit before God created him? Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Insofar as being the "light bearer" the Lord Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (Jn 8:12) and He is "the last Adam" (1Cor 15:45) That being the case then it would stand to reason that "the first Adam" was also the light of the world until the fall. If you read that verse in context, you would know the meaning of "the first Adam". Have a look and show us where Adam is referred to as "the light of the world". 1 Corinthians 15 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. If you need understanding as to why Adam is mentioned, please read the passage below. 1 Corinthians 15 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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