Is once saved always saved?

[Guest morejesus]

Me and a good christian friend of mine some how got on this topic last night. I feel that once saved is not always saved. I say this because I was saved at a very young age and it was real. However I had back slid and was totaly walking in the flesh. I knew what the bible said however prefered to walk in sin. I feel that during that period of time if I would have died I would have gone to hell. I have heard pretty good arguments on both sides. Romans 8:6-8 For to be carnally minded is death:but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is emity (hateful) against God: for it is not subfect to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Romans 6:16-18 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: I dont know for sure on this but I feel if you are not walking in the spirit and obedience and are not in fellowship with God that you will go to hell. My friend on the other hand thinks that if you back slide and was to die before you have asked for remission of your disobedence that you would still go to heaven. My thought is because of our sinful nature if this was true then why would we not continue in our disobedence. Can someone help me out on this? Am I missing somthing?

[The Journey]

morejesus,

Let me offer a bit of advice.

1. The doctrine Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) has been kicked to death on this board.

2. I would be careful relying on anecdotal evidence as a foundation for any belief. Any argument that begins with, "I knew this guy one time who....." is inherently a very weak basis for belief. The problem is that you can never know for certain what is in another person's heart. Most people do not know what is in their own hearts. Who can say when the "act" of salvation occurs? For some, it happens in an instant of time for others it is a much longer process.

3. Unfortunately, this is one doctrine where Scripture is not completely clear. Just like divine election the Bible contains both doctrines. It is a paradox. There are simply some issues for which human reason falters. God chooses those who are saved. But we have free will to choose or reject salvation. God keeps and will not lose those He chooses. Yet we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Salvation is a gift secured by faith and yet involves an act of human will. Ephesians 2:8,9 even makes our "faith" a gift that is divinely provided. The entire process of regeneration and santification is a marvelous miracle beyond our complete understanding.

4. There are doctrines that define Mere Christianity and we must be clear and orthodox on those. For example, the deity of Christ. Others, like baptism and OSAS are open to some questioning. There are dedicated, sincere men of God who hold completely opposite views on these marginal doctrines. We must be civil and loving on these few marginal doctrines where so many Christians disagree.

There is much important work to be done for the Kingdom. Arguments about OSAS is unfortunately not on that agenda.

- Steve

[gypc]

I just found this article this morning. Once saved?

So far it looks pretty sound. Check it out!

In his love,

Brian

[Guest Called]

Why do I feel like this one is gonna be moved to Controversial? HA!

Seriously, I will be more than happy to help you with this. I believed in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) up until about two years ago. I began to question that doctrine when I looked around me and saw people living in blatant sin, people who were lukewarm and people who continually abused God's grace (Romans 6:1-2).

I then began to study the scriptures, not just taking one or two verses and using them out of context, but looking at the Bible as a whole. The Lord led me to a verse, that changed my entire thinking about it. There are many passages in the Bible that refute OSAS, but this is the one that changed my mind.

For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened--those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come-- and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

There are some key words in this scripture that I want to point out to you.

1. Enlightened- This means that this passage is talking about Christians. It is

talking to those who have experienced salvation.

2. Experienced the good things of heaven- This also points to them having received salvation.

3. Shared in the Holy Spirit- They were sealed by the Holy Spirit, brought into the kingdom and were baptized in the Spirit.

4. Tasted the goodness of the Word of God- They have been trained in the Word of God. Walked according to the Word.

5. Tasted the powers of the age to come- This is speaking of the principles of God, the fruit of the Spirit.

So, we can determine that this verse is speaking to people who were once believers. It then goes on to say, who then turn away from God, It is impossible to bring them to repentance.

OSAS is the biggest lie that the enemy has told the church, IMO. It takes away the need for true repentance, it lessens the seriousness of sin and it makes it very easy to be complacent.

Let me also say that I am not living in fear of going to hell, quite the contrary. I am very secure in my relationship with God. Yes, God loves us, but I can chose to not return that love at any point in my walk with Him.

I think the mistake alot of people make is they think that those who don't believe in OSAS think that if we commit one sin and die the next second we will go to hell and it just doesn't work that way. I am talking about living in outright rebellion and blatant sin, having no repentance whatsoever.

I feel very passionate about this, because I bought into the lie for so long!

I am going to quote what my pastor said the other day. "So, your living in adultery and you continue to keep sinning. Do you think your gonna go to heaven? Do you believe in OSAS THAT much, that your willing to take that chance? If I am wrong and OSAS is true, well then there are going to be alot of really good people in heaven, BUT if I am right and OSAS is a lie from the enemy, then there are going to be millions of people in hell."

Just something to think about.....I wouldn't take the chance.

I hope this answers your question.

God Bless! :hug:

Debbie

[Guest morejesus]

I did not right this to be offensive to anyone so if it has offended any I am sorry. This was just a descussion with me and a christian friend at work. We were both talking out of love to each other and it was not an argument. We both wanted to know if once saved always saved not that it really matters to my or his personal walk with christ. I did not write this on the forum to create strife between brothers and sisters here at the worthy boards. So i do give my sincere appolagy if I have offended anyone. Thank you called that does seem to help.

Edited September 7, 2004 by morejesus

[godrulz]

OSAS is usually associated with Calvinism (TULIP=total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints). Calvinism is not necessarily defensible or biblical. It relies on proof texts and deductive (vs inductive) study.

It seems to me that Scriptures teach conditional eternal security. We are secure if we remain in Christ. Unconditional eternal security would negate free will and the possibility of apostasy, as warned about in Scripture. Judas and Charles Templeton (Billy Graham era evangelist) are two examples of genuine believers who fell away without repentance.

As Steve has pointed out, this has been debated for centuries. Our assumptions about the nature of God's sovereignty, man's free will, the nature of justification and sanctification, etc. are all key issues.

Robert Shank (Southern Baptist) "Life in the Son: A study of the doctrine of perseverance" (Westcott) soundly exegetes relevant passages. It is interesting that there are proof texts for each view and another set that both views claim as support. This shows that proper translation and interpretation/exegesis are vital.

I disagree that it is a paradox. The difficulty is that an incorrect view is inherently problematic and does not resolve issues adequately. A correct view will resonate with Scripture and reality.

[Guest Called]

I did not right this to be offensive to anyone so if it has offended any I am sorry. This was just a descussion with me and a christian friend at work. We were both talking out of love to each other and it was not an argument. We both wanted to know if once saved always saved not that it really matters to my or his personal walk with christ. I did not write this on the forum to create strife between brothers and sisters here at the worthy boards. So i do give my sincere appolagy if I have offended anyone.

There is no need to apologize. I think it is an important question and I think it is something that needs to be discussed. Some of us older members have seen this subject come up many times, but that doesn't mean we don't need to still discuss it. You post whatever you feel the Holy Spirit leading you to post, in fact you beat me to the punch. I was feeling led to start up this topic again!

BTW- Welcome to Worthy Boards!

[gypc]

Paul gives 2 life styles. One -the sinful nature.........the other-the fruit of the spirit.

When someone brings up this discussion, I ask them "what is their lifestyle?" If their lifestyle is the acts of the sinful nature, it don't matter what they beleive concerning OSAS, they better repent.

(NIV)Gal 5:19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I think we should all test ourselves with this passage. Paul makes it quite clear that those who live like that, regardless of anything, will not go to heaven.

In his love,

Brian

[Guest LadyC]

like called, i also grew up believing in OSAS, and then later in life, in my study of the scriptures in context with the entire Bible, i realized the fallicy of the doctrine.

along with the scriptures called provided, i'd like to add these...

John 15

1  I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2  Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3  Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

note here in verse 2, it says every branch in me that doesn't bear fruti will be taken away... every branch of the vine... Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. if we don't bear fruit, we're taken away. as it goes on, into verse 6, it indicates that those brances taken away withers and is cast into the fire and are burned... that's not a refiner's fire it is referring to.

2 Peter 3

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. (NIV)

again, this passage is written to the believers... and gives grave warning to believers not to take their eyes off Jesus and "fall from your secure position".

1 timothy chapter four talks about how in the later days, some will depart from the faith. to depart from our faith, we must have been a part of that faith in the first place. this is a reflection of hebrews chapter 3, where we are told that if we "hold fast the confidence and rejoicing" of our faith in Christ until the end, taking heed to not depart from the living God, we are made partakers in Christ.

also, in hebrews 10.... now this one is very blunt and to the point, so i'll post it in two translations, KJV and NIV.

KJV

Hebrews 10

23  Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24  And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25  Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

NIV

Hebrews 10

23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.

25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

those are just a few examples of passages which either bluntly point out what will happen to those who believe and then turn their backs on God, or that warn us to stay diligent. we would not need such warnings if it were impossible to reject God AFTER salvation.

remember, we are given free will. that doesn't mean we were given free will up to the point of salvation, it means we are STILL given free will. and God won't force us into His will against our own.

[dgolvach]

If you think you can lose it be sure to read Matthew 5:20.