KennethWLawrence Posted February 23, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 9 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/30/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2011 Hi Fez, By coincidence, I was discussing this recently with a Catholic. They do not worship Mary, that would be unscriptural. But they reason that: - Mary is in heaven. - Mary has access to Jesus. They do pray to her to interceed for them. This is like asking somebody here on earth to pray for you. You do not worship that person, but you reason that God might listen to their prayers. They sum it up with the saying, "If Father says no, then ask Mom." My understanding is that it is Christian, and not a serious doctrinal problem. Worshipping Mary rather than God would be a problem. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 23, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 23, 2011 They sum it up with the saying, "If Father says no, then ask Mom." So Mary is exalted above Father God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted February 23, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) Hi Fez, By coincidence, I was discussing this recently with a Catholic. They do not worship Mary, that would be unscriptural. But they reason that: - Mary is in heaven. - Mary has access to Jesus. If you think about this though, it makes no sense. Jesus is in heaven. Mary is in heaven. We have access to Mary in heaven, but not Jesus? Why? If they're both in heaven and we have access to Mary who has access to Jesus, what's the barrier to Jesus? The answer is, someone's concept of Mary. The real problem, though is that we are on earth, and scripture tells us that we have access to Jesus - He is our only mediator with God, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 2:5). It makes no such mention of our ability to pray to the dead, except to forbid doing so as divination, detestable to God. This idea of Mary is then made into an idol when it is imposed between us and what scripture says is our only mediator (Jesus), and to justify this the RCC came up the concept of Mary's sinlessness (because only a sinless mediator can mediate on our behalf - otherwise we'd be tainted by their sin) but scripture is clear that although Jesus was sinless (Hebrews 4:15), no one else is (Romans 3:10). This idol is therefore erected in front of the the Lord Jesus, offering instead the supposed favour of another, "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). They do pray to her to interceed for them. This is like asking somebody here on earth to pray for you. You do not worship that person, but you reason that God might listen to their prayers. They sum it up with the saying, "If Father says no, then ask Mom." My understanding is that it is Christian, and not a serious doctrinal problem. Worshipping Mary rather than God would be a problem. Ken By calling this concept of Mary "Mom" it is elevating her to the partnership of marriage with the Almighty Father God, thereby equating her with Him. That's blastphemy. And if Father says 'no' and you ask anyone or anything else, what you're doing is defying God and in the Old Testament that's called whoring after other gods which are the vain images created by people. What the Bible tells us is that she was a Jewish girl who was very blessed by God, which is great for her but she was just a human being. Now she's a dead human being, so praying to her is at best divination, at worst blastphemy, and at any point strictly forbidden by scripture, which says we must instead be "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2 Cor. 10:5), unlike those who "became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man" (Romans 1: 21-23). Edited February 23, 2011 by OldEnglishSheepdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted February 24, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,088 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,829 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 24, 2011 I asked a Catholic why they pray to Mary this morning and that Catholic said it's because Jesus is too busy to mess with us. I was so astonished with the answer I just didn't have the will to ask where that came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David333 Posted February 24, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 47 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/10/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1976 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I have always thought that ritually the Catholic Church is the most beautiful. I know that the robes of The Blessed Virgin were originally Red and Black,which is where the name for the Ladybird or "Our Ladys Bird" is taken from. When my older brother died his funeral was a form of catholic service in a catholic church as my sister in law is devout catholic and permission was obtained for my brother to be buried in a catholic cemetary. Interestingly in the church where his funeral was held is a painting of the Virgin and she is surrounded by pentagrams, a form of 5 point star used by Paganism today, each point representing the five elements sacred to them. When I asked why it appears on this painting I was told that the pentagram was used by early Christians too, only each point of the star represented to them the 5 wounds of Christ. Maybe anyone of the Catholic faith on here could elaborate on this. I don't know but I think that Mary is maybe seen as a perfect female role model in a patriarchal, male dominated religion. I do think though that the Catholic religion is very beautiful. 5 wounds of Christ??? What exactly are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted February 24, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,088 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,829 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 24, 2011 I have always thought that ritually the Catholic Church is the most beautiful. I know that the robes of The Blessed Virgin were originally Red and Black,which is where the name for the Ladybird or "Our Ladys Bird" is taken from. When my older brother died his funeral was a form of catholic service in a catholic church as my sister in law is devout catholic and permission was obtained for my brother to be buried in a catholic cemetary. Interestingly in the church where his funeral was held is a painting of the Virgin and she is surrounded by pentagrams, a form of 5 point star used by Paganism today, each point representing the five elements sacred to them. When I asked why it appears on this painting I was told that the pentagram was used by early Christians too, only each point of the star represented to them the 5 wounds of Christ. Maybe anyone of the Catholic faith on here could elaborate on this. I don't know but I think that Mary is maybe seen as a perfect female role model in a patriarchal, male dominated religion. I do think though that the Catholic religion is very beautiful. 5 wounds of Christ??? What exactly are they? 4 nail holes and the wound from the spear in the side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted February 24, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 24, 2011 I have always thought that ritually the Catholic Church is the most beautiful. I know that the robes of The Blessed Virgin were originally Red and Black,which is where the name for the Ladybird or "Our Ladys Bird" is taken from. When my older brother died his funeral was a form of catholic service in a catholic church as my sister in law is devout catholic and permission was obtained for my brother to be buried in a catholic cemetary. Interestingly in the church where his funeral was held is a painting of the Virgin and she is surrounded by pentagrams, a form of 5 point star used by Paganism today, each point representing the five elements sacred to them. When I asked why it appears on this painting I was told that the pentagram was used by early Christians too, only each point of the star represented to them the 5 wounds of Christ. Maybe anyone of the Catholic faith on here could elaborate on this. I don't know but I think that Mary is maybe seen as a perfect female role model in a patriarchal, male dominated religion. I do think though that the Catholic religion is very beautiful. 5 wounds of Christ??? What exactly are they? 4 nail holes and the wound from the spear in the side. Where are the four nail holes? I never considered there was a nail for each foot. I thought that they overlapped His feet and nailed them together. Doesn't really matter, just never heard of that before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 5 wounds of Christ??? What exactly are they? 4 nail holes and the wound from the spear in the side. Where are the four nail holes? I never considered there was a nail for each foot. I thought that they overlapped His feet and nailed them together. Doesn't really matter, just never heard of that before. Even if the feet are overlapped, there would still be a wound on each foot. 3 nails, 4 holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted February 24, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 24, 2011 5 wounds of Christ??? What exactly are they? 4 nail holes and the wound from the spear in the side. Where are the four nail holes? I never considered there was a nail for each foot. I thought that they overlapped His feet and nailed them together. Doesn't really matter, just never heard of that before. Even if the feet are overlapped, there would still be a wound on each foot. 3 nails, 4 holes. DUH! You are so right! I need a vacation ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 24, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,154 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,443 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 24, 2011 This IS NOT, nor is it intended to be, a Catholic bashing session. Please keep on the topic without judgment or condemnation (neither of which I have for our Catholic brothers and sisters). Try as I might, I cannot find a scriptural reason why the Catholic church worships Mary in so many forms and ways. Can anyone help me understand the reasoning behind the doctrine? Grace please, otherwise we shut it down Ok?. In the very simple of Scripture Matt 12:50 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother." NKJV Matt 19:29-30 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first. NKJV This clearly the understanding... Love Steven I'm sorry, Steven, but to me the only clear that is, is 'clear as mud.' Could you explain a bit more, please? 'Cause I'm kinda You are not ! but if you hunger for more of Him you must empty that which you hold now that is not of Him so that He may fill Himself in that emptied place within... The Lord has fully exposed His purpose in coming John 18:37 >That truth< that He delivered was constantly shown and stated throughout His Life... to love the Lord our God with all of being and as to others to lift to this same purpose of love unto God The Father.... In the garden it was shown to us to the nth degree- Father... with all of my being Christ, The Lord of Glory, requested another way rather than separation from His Father as a result of bearing our sins in His Person! His resolve was complete abandonment of Holy Self desire and to yield fully unto The Father's Holy Will! Listed above in those verses is the directive put into practice where that which is closest, that which you hold most dear, should be as hate- because of it's pull away from that purposed directive "Your Will Father" be the entirety of motive in my being! Luke 14:26-29 26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it — NKJV This process of growing in sanctification "becoming like Christ" for the purpose of the Father's Pleasure in use that will be a glory unto Him is the narrow path that few find... it is not accomplished but by application to life's actualities (when we made abled by Holy Spirit) we become witnesses of truths that Love is without end in application toward God's most perfect glory.... For me it has been baby steps all the way but the consuming fire growing within is precious unto my saying Christ Jesus You have made me to be Son unto Your Father so that now I say Father take all from me but Thee so that by my consumption of Your Son into Him all is left is Thee... There can be nothing in between HIS Person and HIS' person the Fires of Testing will make sure of it.... Love Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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