trinity explained

[brakelite]

35 minutes ago, JohnD said:

History? How about the Word of God? How about taking God at his word?

History can be revised and influenced by demonic forces arrayed against God and the truth.

Say there was a pagan version of a three headed god several thousand years before the Bible was recorded.

So what?

The devil has seen the triune God. So he tries to confuse and confound the truth in any way he can. Making fodder for your very argument these thousands of years later.

Without the doctrine of the Trinity, the Bible is fraught with contradictions about God (God's nature).

Adam is the son of God (Luke 3:38), no Jesus is the only Son of God (John 1:14)... No one has ever seen God at any time (John 1:18 / 1 John 4:12) yet many have seen God (Genesis 32:30 / Judges 13:22-23 / Exodus 24:11).

And God with God in the scripture tells you nothing of God's plurality of persons?

John 1:1–2 (AV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

1 John 1:1–2 (AV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Genesis 1:1–2 (AV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

 

John, one of your very own correct statements, that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, is the most powerful argument against the modern church's teaching on the trinity. Now don't get me wrong, I am not denying the existence of 3 manifestations of the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. What I do deny is the co-equal, co-eternal, consubstantial, co-lateral, coordinate and self-originated principles ascribed to each one, which turns the whole concept to a proper notion of 3 gods.

Now why is the fact readily and freely confessed by all, the Sonship of Jesus, an argument against the trinity? Simple. Because if you believe in the trinity as I described above, the Fatherhood of God and the Sonship of Christ is relegated to nothing more than a metaphor. A metaphorical Father did not send a metaphorical Son to die for me.

As for the holy Spirit being a third co-equal entity in a trinity, the fact that it is described as the Spirit OF God or the Spirit OF Christ (see Romans 8:9 as an example) throughout scripture, renders the nature of the Spirit as being posesssed by God, and when we consider that the Spirit was sent by God to us as a gift, and given to Jesus (John 3:34) , is indicative that the Spirit is under the authority of the Father, as was His Son and will be throughout eternity. (1 Cor. 15:28).

Texts such as the following can only be understood in the context I have just described above.

John 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, (the first Comforter being the Father 2 Cor. 1:3) that he may abide with you for ever;
17  Even the Spirit of truth; ("I am the Way, the Truth....)whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you,  (present tense Jesus speaking of Himself spiritually and physically present with them) and shall  (future tense) be in you. (by His Spirit only,  due to restrictions He is now encumbered with being a man and able only to be present physically in one place at one time).
18 ¶  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.  (Not a third being, but Christ, but Christ in Spirit form.) See also Galatians 2:20; John 14:20; John 17:21; 2 Cor. 13:5; Eph 3:17; Col. 1:27; and

1 John 5:12  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

......among many others. Is it Christ in us, the hope of glory? ....or someone else? Is it a literal Son of the Father?...or an idea...a metaphor?

 

[kwikphilly]

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And God with God in the scripture tells you nothing of God'se read in context as it can be used for GOD,gods or even humans plurality of persons?

That is not true....many times Elohim is used in plural masculine form,in an in depth study we can see this pattern suggests "much" or "more" majesty,honor,glory or it is similar to using a capital letter when writing "God" .......in some Scripture we see plurality & others we do not,this is not the same in the New Testament or in translation or transliterations of phrases or even the word "theos" which is plural but must be read in context as it can mean GOD,gods or even apply to humans !.....that is why we just cannot lean on our own understanding to gain Wisdom that can only come by Revelation .......we can study from now into eternity with logic and reason but the finite mind cannot comprehend the things of God.....perhaps we will never understand the Trinity but one day we shall see clearly

Quote

1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV)

¹² For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

                                                                                                                                With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Radiant_Owl]

On 3/30/2013 at 6:39 PM, SonofLight said:

The Truth is there is no Trinity; this has been a doctrine that has infiltrated the church since 325 AD in the Council of Nicea. Some of the church fathers of old like Tertullian brought this heresy into the church till they had to have a council of the bishops to discuss the creed. Which was later indoctrinated into the Apostles Creed. God is Spirit and not flesh however he dwelt in the fullness of Christ bodily making Jesus Emanuelle God with us. Jesus is his one and only begotten Son not adopted like we are. Jesus is the only person in the Godhead and the Holy Spirit is God He is Spirit and He is holy, the only eternal being. With no beginning and no end. Its obvious that Jesus had a beginning and that was his bodily appearance almost 2000 years ago. However he existed in the bosom of God or Spirit of God from all eternity but was spoken into being at his advent. Jesus Christ (Yeshua) was the spoken word manifested unto us as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. Hallelujah. Any further explanation can be made if needed...

That says it beautifully.

[brakelite]

I have no intention of bringing anyone into submission to what I  believe. It is not my  teaching that is of any importance here What I feel is of profound and utmost importance is that we cleave to scripture. Piecing together bits and pieces of textual evidence and assuming a doctrinal position on that basis is akin to using circumstantial evidence in a court case. Assumed doctrines based on a few texts is not a good sound basis for establishing Bible truth. Particularly when there are literally dozens of scriptures which directly contradict those assumptions.

The truth is that nowhere in scripture is there any text which clearly and succinctly teaches there are three co-equal, co-eternal, consubstantial, co-lateral, coordinate and self-originated principles being ascribed to each one, which is the common trinity teaching of the modern church.  This is merely assumed, and there are many scriptures which contradict this.

Jesus' own words of John 17:3 define eternal life, and yet deny the trinity. Who was Jesus speaking to in John 17:3? A trinity, or His Father?  So therefore, who is the only true God? If you believe and accept the assumed doctrine of the trinity as I describe above, then you deny the personality of the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22

And the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 8:6 succinctly defines the nature of God, identifying and clearly delineating the essence of the Godhead in a few profound phrases, completely negating any pretensions to any knowledge of multiple gods or multiple beings forming a god. It is high time that Christians, if they have any regard for truth or any claims to desiring to know God, dealt with this one scripture.

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

 

[Absolem]

On 3/30/2013 at 5:39 PM, SonofLight said:

The Truth is there is no Trinity; this has been a doctrine that has infiltrated the church since 325 AD in the Council of Nicea. Some of the church fathers of old like Tertullian brought this heresy into the church till they had to have a council of the bishops to discuss the creed. Which was later indoctrinated into the Apostles Creed. God is Spirit and not flesh however he dwelt in the fullness of Christ bodily making Jesus Emanuelle God with us. Jesus is his one and only begotten Son not adopted like we are. Jesus is the only person in the Godhead and the Holy Spirit is God He is Spirit and He is holy, the only eternal being. With no beginning and no end. Its obvious that Jesus had a beginning and that was his bodily appearance almost 2000 years ago. However he existed in the bosom of God or Spirit of God from all eternity but was spoken into being at his advent. Jesus Christ (Yeshua) was the spoken word manifested unto us as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. Hallelujah. Any further explanation can be made if needed...

How does what you say contradict the idea of God being one, is expressed in three natures?

[other one]

Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy
of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was
under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it
were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the
children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat
and drink.
KJV
John 6:44-46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent
me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in
the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore
that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not
that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath
seen the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.
Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from
Him.
So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of is not what that
the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the Old Testament.
Looking further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All
things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the
light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There
was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a
witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might
believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that
Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.
KJV
John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a
devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man
keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than
our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom
makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is
nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is
your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should
say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him,
and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he
saw it, and was glad.
Trinity Thoughts
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel
interfaced with in the Old Testament days. Jesus in this form was with
the Father from the beginning.
It seems to me that the people of the Old Testament days were not aware
of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he
existed in before he became flesh.
Further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with
God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a
servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in
fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted
him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name
of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in
earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father
worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the Old Testament
times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the
Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the
Father on earth.
Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that
did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only
thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only
as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the
fleshly body.
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that
I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the
very works' sake.
KJV
John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as
thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in
us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory
which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as
we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in
one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved
them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou
hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory,
which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of
the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I
have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I
have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love
wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for
the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the
Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the
Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man
came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so
in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies
under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he
hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are
put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then
shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and
authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus
will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to
Him........ The Father.
I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He
was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father
after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over
all and giving it to the Father.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are
offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the
world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be
that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods
many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom
are all things, and we by him.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But to us, there is but one God, The Father of whom all things
came from......
And one Lord, Jesus whom we call the Christ, through which all things
came including us.
And we have the Holy Spirit which was sent to us from the Father at the
request of Jesus.
Interestingly, all three are one in thought, one in purpose, and one in
action. We can't interface with the Father without being indwelt by
the Holy Spirit, and we can't have the Holy Spirit without the
sacrifice and request of Jesus, and we couldn't have had Jesus without
the Father asking Him to do what he has done for us.
You have to have all three or none. And thus they are one.
 

[Repentant]

The example of evidence fromHoly Scripture is the baptismal commission in Matthew 28:19-20. It is manifest from the narratives of the Evangelists that Christ only made the great truth known to the Twelve step by step. First He taught them to recognize in Himself the Eternal Son of God. When His ministry was drawing to a close, He promised that the Father would send another Divine Person, the Holy Spirit, in His place. Finally, after His resurrection, He revealed the doctrine in explicit terms, bidding them go and teach all nations, "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matt., xxviii, 19). The force of this passage is decisive. That "the Father" and "the Son" are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive. The mention of the Holy Spirit in the same series, the names being connected one with the other by the conjunctions "and ... and", is evidence that we have here a Third Person coordinate with the Father and the Son. 

From www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/trinity#II._PROOF_OF_DOCTRINE_FROM_SCRIPTURE.

[Pudgenik]

On Saturday, March 30, 2013 at 6:39 PM, SonofLight said:

The Truth is there is no Trinity; this has been a doctrine that has infiltrated the church since 325 AD in the Council of Nicea. Some of the church fathers of old like Tertullian brought this heresy into the church till they had to have a council of the bishops to discuss the creed. Which was later indoctrinated into the Apostles Creed. God is Spirit and not flesh however he dwelt in the fullness of Christ bodily making Jesus Emanuelle God with us. Jesus is his one and only begotten Son not adopted like we are. Jesus is the only person in the Godhead and the Holy Spirit is God He is Spirit and He is holy, the only eternal being. With no beginning and no end. Its obvious that Jesus had a beginning and that was his bodily appearance almost 2000 years ago. However he existed in the bosom of God or Spirit of God from all eternity but was spoken into being at his advent. Jesus Christ (Yeshua) was the spoken word manifested unto us as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. Hallelujah. Any further explanation can be made if needed...

Can you explain the Hebrew word that was used when God spoke to Moses. In English we read "I am Who am" .  But the true word for I can not be translated correctly into English. The Literal translation would be, "I's am Whom am". In Grammer, it is a singular plural noun.

[Pudgenik]

On 3/30/2013 at 6:39 PM, SonofLight said:

The Truth is there is no Trinity; this has been a doctrine that has infiltrated the church since 325 AD in the Council of Nicea. Some of the church fathers of old like Tertullian brought this heresy into the church till they had to have a council of the bishops to discuss the creed. Which was later indoctrinated into the Apostles Creed. God is Spirit and not flesh however he dwelt in the fullness of Christ bodily making Jesus Emanuelle God with us. Jesus is his one and only begotten Son not adopted like we are. Jesus is the only person in the Godhead and the Holy Spirit is God He is Spirit and He is holy, the only eternal being. With no beginning and no end. Its obvious that Jesus had a beginning and that was his bodily appearance almost 2000 years ago. However he existed in the bosom of God or Spirit of God from all eternity but was spoken into being at his advent. Jesus Christ (Yeshua) was the spoken word manifested unto us as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. Hallelujah. Any further explanation can be made if needed...

If you would only recieve the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, then the Spirit would teach you the truth in this matter.

God's love fill you, pudge

[brakelite]

The trinity as taught by the church today , although differing slightly from denomination to denomination and from Catholicism to Protestantism is basically 3 co-equal beings being one God. 

Question: if Jesus is a begotten Son, and thus the Father and the Spirit unbegotten, as taught by the earliest church fathers, and referring to His pre-incarnation existence how could they possibly be equal without denying the begotten nature of Christ, thus denying His Sonship?