Eternal security

[Botz]

This will be a closed debate between Shiloh 357 and Candice on the subject of 'Eternal Security'..the usual rules apply which are:-

1) This will be a "polite" discussion. This means that neither party will engage in namecalling, ad-hominem attacks, or resort to any manner of character assassination at any point in time.

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4) Books and online articles may be used as source material. However, those articles may be referenced in accordance with the Terms of Service. Links to inappropriate material will be removed. Material that is plagiarized will not be considered at all. At all times participants will cite their source material completely.

5) Wherever possible, please try to avoid leading the course of discussion "off track," or "off topic." In order to have a clear and concise debate it is necessary to stick to the topic until such time as the issues involved have been completely discussed and all points have been exhausted. When such a point in the discussion has been reached then other issues can be brought into the discussion and debated.

[~candice~]

Change of plans, I am going to open.

Thanks to Botz for setting up this debate and to Shiloh for engaging with me. I hope we (and anyone reading this) benefits from this debate.

Naturally, this debate has arisen because Shiloh and I disagree on ES (eternal security). It is my central claim that we must have continuing faith in order to have continuing salvation. The debate may go off topic in order to assert this central claim, but this is the crux of where we disagree (at least, that is my assessment at the writing of this OP).

How much continuing faith do we need? Just faith, the amount of faith we have will vary up and down with seasons and circumstances, but having at least an iota of faith is required to remain saved.

This does not mean that some doubt infers a loss of salvation. Jesus mentions: great faith (Matt 8:10, 15:28), little faith (Matt 14:31), as small as a mustard seed (Matt 17:20, Luke 17:6), no faith (Mark 4:20).

The presence of both faith and doubt is written of a few times in the bible. Probably the most familiar is when Simon Peter is walking on the water, takes his eyes off of Jesus, and starts to sink. Jesus says (Matt 14:31b) “Little faith! Why did you doubt?”

A second example is of the father who brought his mute son (who had a 'dumb spirit') to the disciples to have the demon cast out, but they could not do it. Jesus casts the spirit out of the boy, and says “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.” We read in the next verse (Mark 9:24) the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief”.

Now that we have dispensed with this vacuous position, let's move on to the requirement that faith be maintained.

Never are we told we can be saved without faith. Instead, we are commanded to continue in the faith, pray for more faith, to remain in Him. We should not be satisfied with a weak faith, and should do as the disciples did in Luke 17:5 and pray for more faith.

Act 14:22 confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God.

Faith is NEVER presented as something we should have at one time in order to receive salvation, and then let die later. In direct contrast, we are told in Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." It is a way to live, not just a conduit to salvation.

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Heb 3:15 while it is said, "Today if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."

We are warned against the hardening of the heart, we are made partakers IF we hold onto our faith. This condition is repeated in Hebrews 10:

Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies having been washed with pure water.

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering (for He is faithful who promised),

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

There is really no way to skip around this issue. Faith is something that should remain in us, otherwise we depart from the living God. This condition is repeated a third time:

Heb 3:6 But Christ was faithful as a Son over his own house; whose house we are, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

The Lord does not make empty threats. We see this condition repeated throughout scripture, perhaps clearest in Colossians 1:

Col 1:21 And you, who were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled

Col 1:22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish, and without charge in His sight,

Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard and which was proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister,

Verse 23 starts with “if”, this indicates we have a condition by which we are presented “holy and without blemish, and without charge in His sight”.

There are more verses commanding us to remain in Him in order to maintain salvation.

1Co 15:1 And, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and in which you stand;

1Co 15:2 by which you also are being kept safe, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

1Ti 4:16 Hold on to yourself and to the doctrine; continue in them, for doing this you shall both save yourself and those who hear you.

Salvation in both verses is tied to continuance.

Again:

Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness, and the severity of God; on those having fallen, severity; but on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.

And again:

Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed on Him, If you continue in My Word, you are My disciples indeed.

Weaker point is made by the many many commands to remain in Him:

Act 11:23 who was glad when he had come and had seen the grace of God. And he exhorted all with purpose of heart to remain near to the Lord.

2Ti 3:14 But continue in the things that you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,

2Ti 3:15 and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Less direct now, but in preparation for the defense that a believer cannot either lose their faith or their salvation, let's establish that it can happen and is warned against.

1Co 9:24 Do you not know that those running in a race all run, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain.

1Co 9:25 And everyone who strives for the mastery is temperate in all things. Then those truly that they may receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.

1Co 9:26 So then I run, not as if I were uncertain. And so I fight, not as one who beats the air.

1Co 9:27 But I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest proclaiming to others I myself might be rejected.

And again here:

2Pe 2:20 For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are again entangled, they have been overcome by these, their last things are worse than the first.

2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have fully known the way of righteousness, than fully knowing it,

to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

2Pe 2:22 But the word of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog turning to his own vomit; and, The washed sow to wallowing in the mire.

And again here:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.

Not only do we have these verses, we also have the parable of the seeds, in which initial life has sprung up in stony soil, and also amongst the thorns, and yet perished. I will elaborate further if you wish, but at this stage I will hand back to Shiloh for refutation and clarification of the actual area of disagreement if needed. I am away Thursday through Sunday so won't be able to begin a response to your refutation until Monday.

God bless

[Guest shiloh357]

Within the Doctrine of Salvation, there are several components that together address the entire doctrine or teaching of salvation. For future reference, when I use the word “doctrine,” I am referring to those teachings from Scripture that form the basis of practical Christian living. There are several topics that fall under the heading of the Doctrine of Salvation. These topics are, repentance, faith, regeneration, justification, adoption and sanctification. For our purposes here, I cannot delve into each topic as I would like to do, as I think they are all necessary, but I must limit myself to the topic most relevant to this debate, namely faith. After my discussion relative to faith, I should like to discuss and briefly exegete the passages that Candice has provided in her OP.

Faith is the foundational principle of the Christian experience. Every blessing and benefit in Christ is received through or by faith. We cannot please God without faith (Heb.11:9). Faith is both the means by which and the condition upon which salvation is received. The importance of faith in the life of the Christian cannot be overstated. Yet there must be, in any discussion about faith, an accurate understanding of what faith is.

Faith is an act of the intelligence upon evidence or knowledge. Indeed, faith implies evidence. The Greek noun for faith comes from verb that means, “to persuade.” Thus to have faith is to be persuaded of a prepositional truth based upon evidence. Faith is not a blind act. It is not a step into darkness. The book of Hebrews in chapter 11 enumerates several individuals who stepped out in faith and found God to be trustworthy in all things. The writer of Hebrews offers these people as evidence for why we should be able to also run our race to live out our lives with the same trust. We are commanded on the basis of those evidences to look to Jesus who is the Author (Captain) and the Finisher (Perfecter) of our faith (Heb. 12:2). Jesus is the supreme witness. In view of the joy and the honor to come, endured the cross and disregarded the shame of it. In the same way, we are look forward in faith to the joy and honor that is ours in Christ. That is faith. The writer of Hebrews tells us that faith is the substance of the things we hope for and the evidence of what we have not yet seen (Heb.11:1). The word for “substance” in the Greek means foundation or basis. The writers of Hebrews is using that word in a metaphorical sense to indicate a confident or assured expectation. Our hope in Christ is based on faith, which is based on solid evidence and not an empty claim or vain wishing. Faith believes with the heart. The “heart” is the whole man. It is the whole of your mind, and your will.

I would like to briefly touch on the Godward and manward sides of faith. Paul teaches the Godward side of faith in that we are justified before God in Christ by faith apart from works or personal merit of any kind (Rom. 3:25-28). The “works” required for our justification were accomplished by Christ on His cross when our sin was imputed to Him. His righteousness has been likewise, imputed to us through faith (Rom. 4:24-25). James, looking at this from a manward perspective teaches that our works are the evidence of our testimony. James demonstrates that as it says in Hebrews 11, faith is active or operative in nature. Authentic Bible faith is always accompanied by corresponding action (Jam. 2:14-26). Our faith is affirmed in the sight of men when our actions are in agreement with our profession of faith in Christ.

Having established that, we now understand that salvation is based upon revealed truth. Paul inquires thusly:

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

(Rom 10:14-17)

God does not call men to believe His word in the same way a naïve child believes a fairytale. While the Scriptures do present us with truths to be believed, they also provide the evidence upon which a rational faith may be founded. For example:

Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

(Heb 2:1-4)

and

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

(2Pe 1:16-21)

and

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

(1Jn 1:1-3)

Our faith is not based on empty claims, but upon prepositional claims supported by solid evidence and rooted in historical and geographic fact. Saving faith amounts to a full consent to the will of God and the plan of salvation. It is a complete surrender to testimony of Scripture and obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Finally, I will discuss the source of faith. Faith has its origin with God. In fact, I can make the case from Scripture that all three members of the Trinity are the source of our faith. Faith finds its source in the Father who has given to every man THE measure of faith (Rom. 12:3). It finds its source in the Son who is its Author (Heb. 12:2). Faith also finds its source in the Holy Spirit who distributes faith as a gift within the Body of Christ (I Cor. 12:9). Even the ability to be faithful finds its origin in the character of the Holy Spirit, as faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22).

But there is a human side to this as well. The Bible says that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom.10:17). The context of v. 17 (Rom.10:9-21) is about hearing the Word of God. Faith becomes stronger the more we are exposed to the Word of God. Those who know the Scriptures are far better prepared to weather the storms and the adversities of this life. So while faith is a gift of God’s grace, it is developed and strengthened by our continued study, meditation and daily application of its principles, wisdom and instruction to our lives.

Faith which leads to salvation from sin is not a blind, naïve or superstitious belief in the sacrifice of Christ, similar to the pagans and other false religions in their sacrifices and meaningless, empty rituals. It is also not like the presumptuous beliefs of the impenitent wicked who foolishly think they can be absolved on Sunday morning while fully intending to go right back out in live in the same sinful lifestyle, as before. Rather, it is a faith that is exercised according to the authority and dictates of the Scriptures.

Continued on next post

[Guest shiloh357]

Response to Scripture Presented by Candice

Now in the light of what has been presented, let’s examine the claims Candice has made and the Scriptures she uses to support her claims

How much continuing faith do we need? Just faith, the amount of faith we have will vary up and down with seasons and circumstances, but having at least an iota of faith is required to remain saved.

So far, in all of the Scriptures that follow no such claim is made pertaining to how to remain saved. If there is something I can do to keep my salvation, to make sure I remain saved, then I share in the responisbility where salvation is concerned. If my faith is necessary to remain saved, the implication is that Jesus’ work is not wholly sufficient. My salvation becomes conditional upon my performance.

Faith is the consent of my will to the prepositional claims of the Gospel. That is how grace is received. I am saved when I say “yes” to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and I allow Jesus to come and reside in me in the Person of the Holy Spirit. He transforms me, makes me a new creation and fulfills the righteousness of the Law within me (Rom. 8:4). I am made a “new creation (II Cor. 5:17) and I have been sealed with the Holy Spirit who is the earnest/guarantee of my inheritance (Eph. 1:13-14). I have been fully justified in that I have been declared “not guilty” by the Father through the imputation of the righteousness of Christ by faith (Rom. 4:24-25; II Cor. 5:21).

The nature of salvation makes it impossible to “maintain” on the human side of the transaction. I cannot by my faith, make true any of the above. What I have described, which is not even an exhaustive description of what has been provided through grace is completely dependent on God. I am not saved because I have faith. Faith is not a saving agent. Faith is an act of obedience to the message of the Gospel. It is willing acceptance of offer of eternal life to any who will but believe. It is a 100% free gift.

The beauty of salvation is that it doesn’t depend on me. If salvation depended on us, none of us would ever be saved. We do not have the capacity to maintain salvation. It is the height of human arrogance to think that after Jesus went to the cross and gave all He could give to make salvation accessible to us that we somehow have the ability to maintain what we are powerless to get with our faith, goodness etc. in the first place. Salvation in any context is a one-sided proposition. Does the drowning man I the river partner with the ones who come to rescue him? Of course not, because he is the one cannot do for himself. He is drowning and he is helpless. He needs someone else to provide for him what he cannot provide under his own power. In the same way salvation in every aspect is entirely out of our reach in terms of our own resources, skills and ability. Us trying to “maintain” our salvation from sin is as about as ridiculous as the man rescued from drowning in the river thinking he has to maintain his salvation from the river. None of us thinks in those terms in any other context.

Never are we told we can be saved without faith.

I don’t recall anyone saying that we could be saved without faith.

Instead, we are commanded to continue in the faith, pray for more faith, to remain in Him. We should not be satisfied with a weak faith, and should do as the disciples did in Luke 17:5 and pray for more faith.

Again, I don’t find that to have ever been in dispute at any time.

Faith is NEVER presented as something we should have at one time in order to receive salvation, and then let die later.

Again, I think this is an attempt to refute an argument that has not been raised.

It is a way to live, not just a conduit to salvation.

Did someone say it was “just a conduit to salvation?” What I said is that faith in the conduit through which grace is received. We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith. Faith is the means of receiving. Not the means of “maintaining” it. The idea that salvation can be maintained on the human side of the transaction is simply not a biblical concept.

Now let's examine some of the Scriptures you have provided. I will post your Scripture references in bold-face font.

Hebrews Passages

Heb 3:6 But Christ was faithful as a Son over his own house; whose house we are, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Heb 3:15 while it is said, "Today if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."

I am going to deal with all of the passages in Hebrews first. Now starting with Heb. 3:6 what we find is that the apostle is addressing the possibility of apostasy among his readers (keeping in mind that his readers are presumably Jewish given the overtly Jewish character of the letter). The evidence that we are Christ’s is that we hold fast to our confidence and our boasting in our hope. Confidence, as it is used here refers to bold speech. Confidence refers to speaking out for Christ boldly and without restraint and this is coupled with boasting and rejoicing in our hope. The willingness to be bold publicly about the Gospel was an evidence of an authentic profession. It is not referencing a condition for salvation, but rather an evidence for it. The “if” of verse 6 is not meant to show a condition of salvation, but rather to show us how we can know the difference between those whose profession of faith is true and which is false.

Verses 12-15 are continuance of that discussion from verse 6. In verses 7-11 the writer of Hebrews makes reference to the hardness of heart that occurred in the wilderness by the Israelites. The writer of Hebrews tells us essentially that it was hardness of heart stemming from unbelief.

In verse 12, the warning to the readers (whom we cannot necessarily assume are all believers) is to not harden their hearts in unbelief as well. It is important to understand that Hebrews is written to Jews, not to a particular local congregation of believers. The text of Hebrews seems to indicate that the writer expects non-believing Jews will be reading this text as well. This is not so much a letter as it is a thesis meant for the first century Jewish community as a whole, not a limited community of Jewish believers. That understanding must necessarily flavor how we read the rest of the text that follows. In vv. 13-15, we find a continuation of this theme against apostasy. Apostasy is not a falling away from being an authentic follower of Christ. Apostates are not ex-Christians. Apostates are people who participated in the Christian community in the sense that they mentally assented and acquiesced to the knowledge of the truth, but never accepted it. They believed in God, but they didn’t necessarily believe God. They had “religion” and they even went to church, but for whatever reason, they abandoned Christianity and returned to a life of sin and unbelief. In many cases, they had already been living in sin while masquerading as believers on Sunday. They were “Christians” in the shallow, nominal sense, but never really made a commitment to Jesus Christ.

Verse 14 reiterates verse 12 in that our confidence to boldly proclaim Christ is evidence of our faith and of our participation in the Person of Jesus Christ. He is not saying our confidence to proclaim Him is a condition of staying saved.

Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies having been washed with pure water.

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering (for He is faithful who promised),

Verse 23 is predicated on the full assurance of faith in verse 22. We hold fast our professio of faith because of our full assurance and a clean conscience. Verse 23 provides the rationale, namely the faithfulness of God. We have a full assurance of due to the fact that God is faithful to His promises. God’s faithfulness is our motivation to be faithful to Him. Our motivation is not to remain saved.

Colossians 1:21-23

Col 1:21 And you, who were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled

Col 1:22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish, and without charge in His sight,

Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard and which was proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister,

This is one of those conditional passages of Scripture. It is one I get quite often from those who believe that salvation is conditional upon our behavior/conduct. Notice that this passage is not about “continuing faith.” It is about conintuing in THE faith. It is very similar to what I already covered in the verses presented out of Hebrews.

So, I will need to park here for a while and discuss this passage. Who is being reconciled and who is being presented as holy and blameless? Those who continue steadfast in the faith. Obviously, those who do not continue in the faith will not be reconciled and will not be presented holy and blameless before God. Right?? Right. So it is correct to say that it is not enough to believe in Jesus to be reconciled, one must also continue doing what is right in order to be blameless and holy before God. Right?? Wrong.

The person being saved will do good works. Genuine faith will continue. It will always perservere. It will always be fruitful.

It is important to understand as a conditional clause the phrase “if you continue in the faith” gives a condition under which the action of the verb can take place. The verb is found in v. 22. and is the word “present.” Those who get presented holy are the ones who continue in the faith. Those who don’t continue in the faith, don’t get presented holy.

In Greek there are four types of conditional clauses. I will not delve in to all of that, but the type of conditional clause that is being employed by Paul is basically an assumption of truth or a reality for the sake of argument. This is one of those Greek/Hebrew technical textual issues that doesn’t come across to us in English. Essentially, it would come off in English as, “If this is true, and I assume it is true, this is what will happen.” The point is that you should assume that a person who has been reconciled to God through Christ and is being presented to God as holy will continue in the faith. That is what Christians do. They endure, they continue in the faith. It is the assumed reality of those who have been reconciled that they will continue in the faith. They don’t continue to get reconciled or to get saved. Their works are the products of reconcilation. They continue in the faith BECAUSE they are reconciled.

What is the mark or evidence of a true Christian? Is it someone who goes to church? Nope. Is it someone who was confirmed at an early age? Nope. Is it someone who said the sinners prayer? Nope. Is it someone who merely says he is a Christian and knows all the right lingo? Nope. The mark of a genuine Christian is that they continue in the faith. That is how we know the real Christians from the frauds and imposters.

What this passage should teach us is that we cannot assume that everyone who says they are a Christian really are saved. Many churches today are filled with people who claim they are saved, yet live unholy lives throughout the week.. It is not far fetched to say that our churches are filled with unconverted sinners because we have assumed a true conversion of those who have never truly given their lives to Christ.

I Corinthians 15:1-2 and I Timothy 4:16

1Co 15:1 And, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and in which you stand;

1Co 15:2 by which you also are being kept safe, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

1Ti 4:16 Hold on to yourself and to the doctrine; continue in them, for doing this you shall both save yourself and those who hear you.

In the first Corinthian passage we have the same type of conditional clause I mentioned in the Colossians passage. It is not saying that it is possible for salvation to be lost. The point Paul is endeavoring to make is that it is possible for those who claim to be Christians to in fact not be Christians at all. The assumption again, is that true believers will contiue to hold fast to the truth and those who believe in vain will not. Those who believe in vain are those superficial believers who I described earlier as nominal, shallow, lip service “Christians.”

As for 1 Tim. 4:16… That verse occurs in a context about false doctrines and seducing spirits. The context is not about salvation from sin. The context tells us that Paul is talking about the preservation of himself and the congregation from false doctrines and heresies. That is why Timothy is exhorted to remain in the correct doctrine. Not every mention of the word “save” is a reference to salvation from sin.

Romans 11:22-23 and John 8:31

Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness, and the severity of God; on those having fallen, severity; but on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.

And again:

Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed on Him, If you continue in My Word, you are My disciples indeed.

Referencing the Rom. 11: 22-23 passage:

This passage is part of a greater context having to do with God’s dealings with Israel. Chapters 1-8 of Romans dealt with what was at that time considered a great mystery, namely the salvtion of uncircumcised Gentiles. Paul explains in those eight chapters how Gentile salvation is made possible. Part of his focus in those chaptes is the relationship of the Gentile and Jew pertaining to salvation. In chapters 9, 10 and 11, Paul shifts his focus from the Jew/Gentile relationship to the relationship of Israel and the corporate body of Gentile believers. In chapter nine, he defends God’s justness in using Israel as He did for His purposes. In light of that, Paul begins appealing to the Gentiles to help bring the Gospel back to his brethren after the flesh. Paul’s deepest heart-felt desire is the salvation of his people. Rom. 10:16-11:12 Paul deals with the disobedience of Israel and the partial blindness that God had brought upon them. Yet, in verse 1 Paul endeavors to point out that God has not cast Israel off. Starting Rom. 11:17-36 he deals with Israel’s restoration and this includes Paul’s famous olive tree metaphor where he speaks of the Gentiles being grafted into the root of the olive tree.

So then we come to the issue raised in vv. 22-23. Candice has cited this passage and I am assuming the focus is on the possibility of being cut off. Keep in mind that this passage occurs in a context dealing with the restoration of Israel. The issue is not about how to remain saved.

So the question is, what is/are the condition(s) that Paul gives for the Gentiles being cut off in light of the immediate context? Paul’s warning to the Gentiles is found in vv. 17-23. His warning is against highmindeness and arrogantly boasting against the natural branches. Andrew Murray puts it this way:

“The boasting condemned is the arrogance and presumptuous confidence to which believing Gentiles are liable when they consider the place of privilege and honour they occupy by the displacement of Israel...The person who is called upon to fill a place vacated by the exercise of discipline upon another is liable to gloat self-righteously over this advancement and look with disdain upon the fallen.”

Unfortunately, the Gentiles did not heed Paul’s warning and for 1,700 years they have generally looked with disdain upon the Jews and church history is replete with examples, but that is not something I am going unpack here.

The point Paul is making is that Gentiles should not be arrogant toward the natural branches and presume that they could not fall into the same consequence. “be not highminded but fear. You can be cut off too. Cut off from what? It is important to understand that being “grafted in” to the olive tree is not a metaphor for salvation. It is a metaphor for paricipating in God’s “goodness.” It is about remaining in a place of blessing. That is what being grafted into the root is about. Paul correctly identifies that the source of life for the grafted in branches is the root. Fred Wright, in his book, “Manners and Customs of Bible Lands,” points the following:

"The olive tree often grows wild, and so when the trees are cultivated they must be grafted. A graft of a cultivated olive tree is inserted into the stem of the wild olive tree, and then the wild olive tree is cut down close to the ground, and the part below becomes root and feeder for the inserted shoot. This is the customary process of grafting. The Apostle Paul, for the sake of argument, speaks of grafting contrary to the natural process. He tells of God grafting the wild olive of the Gentiles on the good stock of the Jewish nation, which is a reversal of custom (Rom. 11:24)"

Paul is talking about remaining the favor and blessing of God. He is not talking about remaining in salvation. Being cut off is not a reference to having one’s salvation revoked. Paul is speaking in a corporate sense. It is talking about the corporate body of Gentile believers enjoying the corporate benefits and blessings associated with being a part of Israel. Personal salvation is not the object Paul has in view in this section of Romans. He has already covered the conditions and basis for personal salvation in chapters 1-8. He is not talking about the relationship of Israel to the Church at large.

Now for John 8:31…

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, (Joh 8:31)

I will not spend as much time here only to point out that the sign of a true follower of Christ is that they abide in His teachings. This is not talking about maintaining salvation. It is simply notes that we can tell who is or is not a true follower/disciple of Christ by whether or not they continue in what Jesus taught.

Acts 11:23 and 2 Timothy 3:14

Act 11:23 who was glad when he had come and had seen the grace of God. And he exhorted all with purpose of heart to remain near to the Lord.

2Ti 3:14 But continue in the things that you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,

2Ti 3:15 and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

These two passages simply exhort us to remain true to the faith. I do not see anything in them that tells us that salvation can be lost.

I Corinthians 9:24-27 and II Peter 2:20-22

1Co 9:24 Do you not know that those running in a race all run, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain.

1Co 9:25 And everyone who strives for the mastery is temperate in all things. Then those truly that they may receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.

1Co 9:26 So then I run, not as if I were uncertain. And so I fight, not as one who beats the air.

1Co 9:27 But I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest proclaiming to others I myself might be rejected.

2Pe 2:20 For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are again entangled, they have been overcome by these, their last things are worse than the first.

2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have fully known the way of righteousness, than fully knowing it,

to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

2Pe 2:22 But the word of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog turning to his own vomit; and, The washed sow to wallowing in the mire.

With reference to 1 Cor. 9:24-27, it is important for the reader to understand that Paul’s concern was that he not be disqualified for service. Notice the metaphors Paul uses: First he refers to running a race in order to win a prize. Then he uses boxing as another metaphor. He uses athletic competition as a metaphor for his ministry and the prize he hopes to obtain at the end of his life.

Salvation is not a prize that can be earned. It is a gift given freely apart from personal merit. A prize is based on personal performance. We all strive to run our race for a reward that is awaiting us. Salvation is already ours. We are running our race for a reward that God will give us when we cross the finish line. In Paul’s day it was a crown and he uses that crown given in athletic competitions as a metaphor for the reward we will receive in eternity.

So Paul buffets and disciplines his body not so that he can remain saved, but so that he is not disqualified for service. Keep in mind that the context determined from the verses that precede the passage Candice cited are about the preaching of the Gospel.

For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but if not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship. What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel. For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

(1Co 9:16-23)

Paul’s point in 9:24-27 is that he disciplines himself and keeps his passions and desires in check and lives in such a manner that his preaching is not nullified. Many preachers bring great reproach upon the Gospel because they allow themselves to fall into sin. It shipwrecks their ministries and they can no longer stand in a pulpit because of the reproach they have brought to their message and to Lord renders them ineffective. They have nothing to say that anyone will take seriously due to their fall. This is what Paul is saying he wants to avoid. He is not talking about being rejected for salvation. He is talking about being rejected for service in the ministry of the Gospel.

Reference is made to II Pet. 2:20-22.

The contesxt of this passage has to do with false teachers and those who follow them. Verses 1 and 2 set the context for the line of thought that continues through v. 22.

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.

(2Pe 2:1-2)

We can then examine how Peter describes these people:

But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you. They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness. These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.

(2Pe 2:12-19)

He calls them irrational animals, he says they blaspheme about matters of which they are ignorant, and they will be destroyed in their own destruction. He calls them blots and blemishes, accuses them of reveling in deceptions while feasting with believers, they are adulterous and have an insatiable appetite for sin. The gloom of utter darkness has been reserved for them. They make false promises of freedom but are slaves of corruption.

These are Christians Peter is describing and so when we get down to what Peter says about them in vv. 20-22, it makes no sense to claim that these are people who have lost salvation. Peter aptly equates them with dogs that return to their vomit and pigs that return to the mud. The point Peter is making is just like a dog does what it is the nature of a dog to do and just like a pig does what a pig will do by nature, likewise sinners return to their sin because that is what sinners do. They were never changed. They were sinners all along. Sure, they have found religion for a season; they may have conformed to the outward character of the Christian community, but they were never regenerated, never born again. They suppressed their sinful nature as long as they could, but in the end, they simply returned to their sin.

That the text says that they “escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,” does not mean they were Christians. It simply means that they had the knowledge and they even assented to the truth of what they knew, but they never committed themselves to Christ. Albert Barnes makes the following observation:

“There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. They may profess religion, and may Know enough of religion to understand that it requires them to abandon their vicious habits, and still never be true Christians.”

Hebrews 6:4-6

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.

This is often used to show that salvation can be lost, but that reflects a poor understanding of the text.

First of all the context begins back in chapter five. I will post the entire discussion from its beginning in chapter five down to verse 6 of chapter six.

About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. (Heb 5:11-6:6)

The context, which begins in chapter five and verse eleven, pertains not to unholy living or ungodliness. The complaint is that they are spiritually immature. The writer of Hebrews tells them that they are dull of hearing, are spiritually immature needing milk and are not practiced in discernment. He then exhorts them to move on and leave the elementary or rudimentary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity.

So the problem here is not that they are unfaithful or on verge of apostasy, as this passage is often used to allege. It is a complaint pertaining to their immature and spiritually stagnate condition. The phrase “fall away” in verse six is not the word in Greek that is commonly used for those who commit apostasy or reject the Lord. That would not fit the context. The word in Greek is parapiptos and means to fall aside. It pictures someone like the runner of a race who falls to the side due to fatigue and who is not as strong as the other athletes. He is weaker and untrained. This is the picture being painted by the author of Hebrews of his general readership.

“It is impossible to renew them unto repentance…” simply means that it is impossible to go back to the beginning. It is impossible to get resaved and start all over again. His point was if they fall to the side and cease growing, there is no way to return to the beginning of their salvation and cover the same elementary doctrines over and over again without putting Christ to public shame again. The only way to get resaved is for Jesus to come back and die all over again. The notion of getting resaved is just not a biblical concept and is not the object of this passage.

Not only do we have these verses, we also have the parable of the seeds, in which initial life has sprung up in stony soil, and also amongst the thorns, and yet perished.

Those on stony ground are not believers and never were. They hear the word but do not benefit from it. Their hearts are never changed. They hear it, assent to it and have knowledge of the truth, but they do not accept the truth. There is no faith for the seed to take root sin and it withers away and dies at the first sign of persecution.

The seed sown among the thorns is choked out. It never takes root because the cares of the world and the deceitful allure of the world destroys the seed before it has a chance to take root and produce fruit. To argue that these verses provide examples of faith that has been allowed to die, simply does not jive with the natural, plain sense of the text.