Creation???

[ByFaithAlone]

We only assume that time today is the same as it was when the earth was made. We have people trying to find the beginning point of the earth, the great bang. In the past few years, we have had a bunch of people, that have told us the age of the universe, one age was 13 billon years old. Then they took another look and raised it up a couple of billion years. I think, that we will not find an end and that means we will not find a beginning, because {time}, like everything else was made by God.

Actually, the Big Bang model postulates a universe approximately 14.7 billion years old. It's very hard to pin point due to inflation but it shouldn't change to much after the mathematical work of Borde, Guth and Vilenkin which proved that it is almost certain that our universe has an original point. Therefore our universe is not infinite but rather finite and space-time had a definite "beginning" or t=0. Interesting theory though...

[~candice~]

You still did not address the fact that God allowed the earth to bring forth the plants on the thrid yom. This indicates a longer period of time then just 24 hours.

That's false logic there bro, God is not restricted, He can cause the earth to bring forth life at whatever speed He wants. After all, He created it, and His creative powers are not limited to current science.

He created Adam out of dirt, and that doesn't seem scientifically possible according to today's standard. And yet, we don't throw a literal Adam out. So why maintain a dogmatic scientific stance for day three and not for day 6?

[ByFaithAlone]

Wow, way above my head this time stuff and then stuffing God into it, to boot!

I think, that is like trying to stuff God into a little box so we can look at Him through a little scope.

What makes us think that we really understand what time is?

We only assume that time today is the same as it was when the earth was made. We have people trying to find the beginning point of the earth, the great bang. In the past few years, we have had a bunch of people, that have told us the age of the universe, one age was 13 billon years old. Then they took another look and raised it up a couple of billion years. I think, that we will not find an end and that means we will not find a beginning, because {time}, like everything else was made by God.

The Bible tells us in Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

When God created the heavens and the earth, He also created everything else. All the stars, all the galaxies, all the solar systems, all the angels in heaven, plus whatever else may be out there. Instead of the universe being made "in" time, time it self came into being with the universe, or maybe God created it (time) as the result of the fall, for Adam and Eve, were to have lived forever.

Has anyone ever had a moment in time, in which everything around you and even time it's self, seem to have slowed down? I have, three times.

Actually many scientists have come to the conclusion that the speed of light is not really constant...... which would tell us that neither would time flow be constant.

Using our own science if light's speed was drastically different just after the big bang, the whole universe could have aged 15 billion years in what now we would consider an instant.

The speed of light is considered to be constant in a vacuum. What evidence do you have against this?

[ByFaithAlone]

You still did not address the fact that God allowed the earth to bring forth the plants on the thrid yom. This indicates a longer period of time then just 24 hours.

That's false logic there bro, God is not restricted, He can cause the earth to bring forth life at whatever speed He wants. After all, He created it, and His creative powers are not limited to current science.

He created Adam out of dirt, and that doesn't seem scientifically possible according to today's standard. And yet, we don't throw a literal Adam out. So why maintain a dogmatic scientific stance for day three and not for day 6?

Actually, you are comparing two completely different things. I understand that God is not restricted, but the earth is. God let the earth bring forth plants. He had no hand in that part (other than perhaps the creation of the seeds). On the other hand, God actually was the one to create Adam out of the dust of the ground. That act was God's doing, no the dust's doing. Do you see the difference? Also, given enough chemicals and elements from the soil, and some advanced science well beyond our current capacity, it could be possible for a human being to be created (again theoretically).

[other one]

Wow, way above my head this time stuff and then stuffing God into it, to boot!

I think, that is like trying to stuff God into a little box so we can look at Him through a little scope.

What makes us think that we really understand what time is?

We only assume that time today is the same as it was when the earth was made. We have people trying to find the beginning point of the earth, the great bang. In the past few years, we have had a bunch of people, that have told us the age of the universe, one age was 13 billon years old. Then they took another look and raised it up a couple of billion years. I think, that we will not find an end and that means we will not find a beginning, because {time}, like everything else was made by God.

The Bible tells us in Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

When God created the heavens and the earth, He also created everything else. All the stars, all the galaxies, all the solar systems, all the angels in heaven, plus whatever else may be out there. Instead of the universe being made "in" time, time it self came into being with the universe, or maybe God created it (time) as the result of the fall, for Adam and Eve, were to have lived forever.

Has anyone ever had a moment in time, in which everything around you and even time it's self, seem to have slowed down? I have, three times.

Actually many scientists have come to the conclusion that the speed of light is not really constant...... which would tell us that neither would time flow be constant.

Using our own science if light's speed was drastically different just after the big bang, the whole universe could have aged 15 billion years in what now we would consider an instant.

The speed of light is considered to be constant in a vacuum. What evidence do you have against this?

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[Fez]

Wow, way above my head this time stuff and then stuffing God into it, to boot!

I think, that is like trying to stuff God into a little box so we can look at Him through a little scope.

What makes us think that we really understand what time is?

We only assume that time today is the same as it was when the earth was made. We have people trying to find the beginning point of the earth, the great bang. In the past few years, we have had a bunch of people, that have told us the age of the universe, one age was 13 billon years old. Then they took another look and raised it up a couple of billion years. I think, that we will not find an end and that means we will not find a beginning, because {time}, like everything else was made by God.

The Bible tells us in Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

When God created the heavens and the earth, He also created everything else. All the stars, all the galaxies, all the solar systems, all the angels in heaven, plus whatever else may be out there. Instead of the universe being made "in" time, time it self came into being with the universe, or maybe God created it (time) as the result of the fall, for Adam and Eve, were to have lived forever.

Has anyone ever had a moment in time, in which everything around you and even time it's self, seem to have slowed down? I have, three times.

Actually many scientists have come to the conclusion that the speed of light is not really constant...... which would tell us that neither would time flow be constant.

Using our own science if light's speed was drastically different just after the big bang, the whole universe could have aged 15 billion years in what now we would consider an instant.

The speed of light is considered to be constant in a vacuum. What evidence do you have against this?

ummm.... the fact that I for one don't live in one?

[ByFaithAlone]

Wow, way above my head this time stuff and then stuffing God into it, to boot!

I think, that is like trying to stuff God into a little box so we can look at Him through a little scope.

What makes us think that we really understand what time is?

We only assume that time today is the same as it was when the earth was made. We have people trying to find the beginning point of the earth, the great bang. In the past few years, we have had a bunch of people, that have told us the age of the universe, one age was 13 billon years old. Then they took another look and raised it up a couple of billion years. I think, that we will not find an end and that means we will not find a beginning, because {time}, like everything else was made by God.

The Bible tells us in Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

When God created the heavens and the earth, He also created everything else. All the stars, all the galaxies, all the solar systems, all the angels in heaven, plus whatever else may be out there. Instead of the universe being made "in" time, time it self came into being with the universe, or maybe God created it (time) as the result of the fall, for Adam and Eve, were to have lived forever.

Has anyone ever had a moment in time, in which everything around you and even time it's self, seem to have slowed down? I have, three times.

Actually many scientists have come to the conclusion that the speed of light is not really constant...... which would tell us that neither would time flow be constant.

Using our own science if light's speed was drastically different just after the big bang, the whole universe could have aged 15 billion years in what now we would consider an instant.

The speed of light is considered to be constant in a vacuum. What evidence do you have against this?

ummm.... the fact that I for one don't live in one?

What are you trying to say here? The fact that we don't live in a vacuum doesn't make it any less true...

Thanks you for the references other one!

[Guest]

I would disagree with you here... verses 11 and 12 for your enjoyment w/ translation

י וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, תַּדְשֵׁא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב

מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, עֵץ פְּרִי עֹשֶׂה פְּרִי לְמִינוֹ, אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ

עַל-הָאָרֶץ; וַיְהִי-כֵן.

And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so.

וַתּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, לְמִינֵהוּ,

וְעֵץ עֹשֶׂה-פְּרִי אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ, לְמִינֵהוּ; וַיַּרְא

אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב.

And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

No where do I see the word vayatzmach. Instead deshe ( דֶּ֠שֶׁא - grass or vegiatation) from the word dasha (דָּשָׁא - or to germinate until green - over 24 hrs last time I checked) is used in connection with the word for earth (אָ֫רֶץ - earth or land)

Well maybe you should have read the article you posted a little better. The author of your article cited Gen. 2:9:

And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up (vayatzmach) every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

(Gen 2:9)

And the article and site also talked about the third day... the part we were discussing. You still did not address the fact that God allowed the earth to bring forth the plants on the thrid yom. This indicates a longer period of time then just 24 hours...

I am fine with discussing the 6th day too. As you say, Deem has a lot to say on that subject too. However, you still haven't addressed the fact that on the third day, God allowed the earth to bring forth vegetation or the main issue that Deem has with the 6th day. Namely, if Adam named all the species currently existing it would take a very long time indeed.

http://www.explorebiodiversity.com/Mexico/Pages/Habitats/species.htm - "At high estimate of the number of species that could exist on earth - that high estimate being around 100 million species. A low estimate is 2 million. The best estimate might be around 10 million. But even if that’s the case, it means we've only known about a small fraction of what is presently there."

This means Adam (not God) would have to name approximately 115.740741 species/second to name all of the currently alive species in the world today in one day. Just to let you know, the current fastest speaker in the world can speak only 10.6233333 words/sec according the the Guinness Book Of World Records.

Also see below on the other things you did not address:

No need to address them, as i have made the point above that you are not really very well versed in the article you cite as demonstrated by your posts.

What a great ad hominem fallacy attack while at the same time not addressing my points! I applaud you... oh wait....

Lets not make this personal, folks.

[Guest shiloh357]

And the article and site also talked about the third day... the part we were discussing. You still did not address the fact that God allowed the earth to bring forth the plants on the thrid yom.

Well even the third day doesn't help you. It doesn't say that God allowed the trees to sprout. It is a command for the trees and other vegitation to sprout. "Let the earth bring forth..." is a commandment and the Hebrew word for "bring forth" is (tadshey) תַּדְשֵׁ It is a HIPHAL causative verb. It is not a passive verb.

This indicates a longer period of time then just 24 hours...

No, it doesn't. The Hebrew doesn't agree with you.

I am fine with discussing the 6th day too. As you say, Deem has a lot to say on that subject too. However, you still haven't addressed the fact that on the third day, God allowed the earth to bring forth vegetation or the main issue that Deem has with the 6th day. Namely, if Adam named all the species currently existing it would take a very long time indeed.

The 2nd chapter of Genesis is not just about the sixth day. It also serves as a summarization of entire creation event covered in the 1st chapter. So when I was addressing Gen. 2:9, I was addressing the events of the third day.

http://www.explorebi...ats/species.htm - "At high estimate of the number of species that could exist on earth - that high estimate being around 100 million species. A low estimate is 2 million. The best estimate might be around 10 million. But even if that’s the case, it means we've only known about a small fraction of what is presently there."

This means Adam (not God) would have to name approximately 115.740741 species/second to name all of the currently alive species in the world today in one day. Just to let you know, the current fastest speaker in the world can speak only 10.6233333 words/sec according the the Guinness Book Of World Records.

That also assumes that the all of the animals we know of today would have existed at that time. There was most likely far, far fewer species animals and besides you are taking a hyperliteral approach in order to prove a nonliteral perspective which internally inconsistent.

shiloh357, on 26 July 2011 - 04:09 PM, said:

Quote

Also see below on the other things you did not address:

No need to address them, as i have made the point above that you are not really very well versed in the article you cite as demonstrated by your posts.

What a great ad hominem fallacy attack while at the same time not addressing my points! I applaud you... oh wait....

It was simply an honest assessment of your handling of the material. I addressed everything that needed to be addressed.

[ByFaithAlone]

And the article and site also talked about the third day... the part we were discussing. You still did not address the fact that God allowed the earth to bring forth the plants on the thrid yom.

Well even the third day doesn't help you. It doesn't say that God allowed the trees to sprout. It is a command for the trees and other vegitation to sprout. "Let the earth bring forth..." is a commandment and the Hebrew word for "bring forth" is (tadshey) תַּדְשֵׁ It is a HIPHAL causative verb. It is not a passive verb.

But it is the earth that is "doing" the verb. God says, "Let the earth bring forth..." not "God brought forth from the earth." I realize it is causative but that still does not take away from my point that the earth is the one bringing forth the plants.

http://www.explorebi...ats/species.htm - "At high estimate of the number of species that could exist on earth - that high estimate being around 100 million species. A low estimate is 2 million. The best estimate might be around 10 million. But even if that’s the case, it means we've only known about a small fraction of what is presently there."

This means Adam (not God) would have to name approximately 115.740741 species/second to name all of the currently alive species in the world today in one day. Just to let you know, the current fastest speaker in the world can speak only 10.6233333 words/sec according the the Guinness Book Of World Records.

That also assumes that the all of the animals we know of today would have existed at that time. There was most likely far, far fewer species animals

Why would this be so? Based on the science, we only see about 1% of all the total species that have been alive in the past. There would have to be tons more. Assuming the 99% figure is accurate we would have to multiply by 99 to get all of the species that earth has supposedly contained.

and besides you are taking a hyperliteral approach in order to prove a nonliteral perspective which internally inconsistent.

I would disagree. I would contend that I am using a literal approach to both. I am just using a different interpretation of the word yom then what most people are used to. It remains the same word and is therefore still literal...

It was simply an honest assessment of your handling of the material. I addressed everything that needed to be addressed.

For the sake of civility, I will not push the issue.

Also, what exactly was your response to the fact that the word of the Lord has been proclaimed to a 1,000 generations? I can't find it for some reason...