Salvation: by faith alone or faith and works?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

I think this debate has gone as far as it can go given the way it has been approached.....as Chesterton started, I'll ask OES to close and we'll leave it at that.

Thanks Botz.

You have yet to demonstrate that salvation is ever said to be by faith alone in scriptures.

Chesterton, I explicitly stated that I would NOT be defending the position that salvation is ever said to be by faith alone in scriptures in my first post here, which you’d know if you’d have bothered to read it, wherein I stated that “My argument is not predicated on the usage of the words ‘faith alone’, but with the accurate and honest treatment of all the words in their proper context”.

I further qualified that my position is that we are saved by grace through faith, which is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so no one can boast.

Since that is my position and, and since it is extracted right from the very words in Ephesians 2:8-9, it’s simply absurd to suggest that my argument doesn’t even appear in scripture.

Faith alone is explicitlly said to be incapable of saving us in scripture.

And yet here it is in stone, that works are not part of the equation “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith… not by works” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Whatever else you may want to assume, salvation is by grace through faith, not by works, stated here, reinforced in Romans 4 which expounds on the exact same topic as James 2 (which we see does not support your case) from the perspective of justification before God.

Multiple scriptures tell us that our works impact our salvation.

You asserted that about James 2, but further examination disconfirmed your assertion and demonstrated mine, to which you couldn't even hazard a response.

You asserted that about a passage that deals with the issue of circumcision versus un-circumcision, which makes no reference whatsoever to the present discussion on the issue of faith versus works on salvation.

I presented numerous verses that flatly denounce any such doctrine as salvation including works as a component and you simply pretend they don’t include the words:

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith… not by works” (Ephesians 2:8-9);

“the gift of God is eternal life” (Romans 6:23);

“Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works” (Romans 4: 2-6); and

“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work” (Romans 11:5-6).

These passages are framed in the context of salvation and justification unto salvation before God. They don’t require interpretation or the vulnerability of deductive reasoning (with its potential for false premises or logical fallacies), they simply state what they state, which is that we are saved by grace, through faith, not by works, it is the gift of God not of ourselves because if by works then it would be wages and not a gift and then grace would no more be grace.

I hope to hear Jesus say, "Well done, my good and faithful servant".

Then you have to obey what the scripture says and not repeat the error which Jesus came to correct:

“… the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works” (Romans 9:30-32).

There are two points in there, being good and being faithful.

If you want to be called good you have to have goodness imparted to you, which was done once for all: “we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Hebrews 10:10).

That is where the goodness of the good and faithful servant comes from: “But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation” (Colossians 1:22).

And if you want to be faithful, you have to follow the faith, as instructed by God, “to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness… the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works” (Romans 4: 5-6).

We know that “a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ" and we reject the grace of God if we try to obtain such justification by other means than faith "do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (Galatians 2:15-21).

We’ve already seen that we’re justified by faith apart from works through the example of Abraham, so the teaching predates the advent of the Jewish law, so don’t kid yourself and try to write off the fact that we’re saved by grace through faith, not by works (which is also the context of Galatians 1 and 2), by pretending that you can follow a New Law of salvation through faith plus works which is attributed to God’s commandments given through Jesus, as opposed to the Old Law of salvation through faith plus works which was attributed to God’s commandments given through Moses.

The whole point is that salvation does not come through works, but apart from works by grace through faith, because “Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes” (Romans 10:4), He is not the beginning of a new law as though God’s Law by Moses were lacking.

It wasn’t the fault of the Law but the works of man that needed Jesus’ redemption “Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law… sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting…. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin” (Romans 7: 7-14).

We didn’t need a New Law of works but fulfillment and liberation from Law, which is not obtained by works but by grace through faith as was the intention all along, “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering” (Romans 8:1-3).

I think you need to consider this passage carefully:

I think you should stop trying to garner your doctrine from inference you’re making from allegories, which contradict the clear, positive statements of scripture.

Scripture doesn’t state that the meaning of the allegory you cite is that we’re saved by works and faith, but Ephesians 2:8-9 does state that we are saved by grace through faith not by works, and we’ve seen a host of parallel passages that confirm this and denounce any notion of works as an ingredient of salvation.

Therefore, you need to believe what the Word of God actually states and not believe in speculations you run to when faced with what the Word of God actually states, under the guise of follow Jesus while committing the exact error He chastised with the following: “‘Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition… This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” (Matt. 15: 6-9).

chesterton, when I invited you here I was really hoping you'd try to contribute something, but by having simply pretended the words of scripture that I quoted don't exist I don't see how you've even tried to demonstrate that there is any support for your position.

My contention remains simply that "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" (Ephesians 2:8-10), because "the gift of God is eternal life..." (Romans 6:23), and since my contention is extracted right from the Word of God, the Bible believer has no rational ability to suggest otherwise, as I believe has been here confirmed.