JohnD Posted January 8, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 904 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,642 Content Per Day: 2.03 Reputation: 5,830 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 8, 2012 BTW, I have relatives and friends who have had abortions. My mother and sister both have in the 1970's (which is not an excuse, it was just a very crazy time when many threw off the restraints of Christianity and even America for that matter prior to the 1960's). I am sure there is a certain amount of pain and guilt that will plague them about the whole thing (like even those who kill in war or self defense are never completely cool with the justification). The taking of a human life wreaks havoc on the taker. How much more when it is not justified and is ones' own child... even if in ignorance... which is why no abortion should be performed legally without full disclosure to the mother AND counseling from a woman who had an abortion... But the people I mentioned are all at peace, even if there will always be some pain and lingering guilt... by considering the omniscience of God more fully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liriodominican Posted January 18, 2012 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 8 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/31/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2012 Well, God knows when everybody will die, the people many time make things for avoiding the plan of God in their lifes. the will of God is that every child birth but the people turn with their actions the plan of God, remember God give us free will. people can choose between the good and bad things. This has been bothering me alot lately. If God numbers our days and sets the time for our deaths, does that mean God meant for aborted children to die when they did? If so, for what purpose? Thanx in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylor30 Posted January 18, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 382 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 96 Days Won: 3 Joined: 12/31/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2012 I used to ponder this same question. And it occurred to me the plain / simple answer is that God is the omniscientist. In his omniscience he knows when our ends (or translations from here to there) will take place. Place your trust in God. All creation declares he is trustworthy. That's the simple answer. The complicated answer is... complicated. But it is an answer to be considered and hopefully believed because it is true. It touches on many pet peeve doctrines / theologies and because it does I often hesitate to bring this up because it almost always ends up in a fuss fest of predestination versus free will and calvinists and armenians and lions and tigers and bears... oh my... oh brother... First of all we must pray for the Holy Spirit to enlighten us all (including yours truly) because what better way to hinder believers who satan cannot prevent from believing than to keep us ever quarreling and bickering? If we are too busy fighting amongst ourselves... what good is that in evangelizing the world? If even only the appearances of it? Why would someone want to give up their struggles in the world for struggles in the religious realm? I know many dear people who have thrown up their hands about faith and said "I'm just not up for the fight enough to be a Christian..." So sad. Pray for the full armor of God to be donned upon us all and that we submit to the tutelage of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Do not be so quick to go beyond the omniscience of God and all the implications of it. The OP mentioned abortion, so lets begin there. I chalk this up to the affinity God gives us towards babies (for the survival of the human race if you think about it). This gets translated over into the general populace with regard to infant mortality. But if you carried this thinking to its logical conclusion, then abortion would be doing every baby a favor. Perish the thought! But what good would it do that individual baby to be born and to sin and go to hell if they do not get saved? ...if they would have certain salvation if they were killed before the age of accountability... Would this not be another means of salvation? Jesus said no man comes to the Father but by him. And in Gethsemane Jesus begged if there be any other way than that he go to the cross and the answer from heaven was silence. Is prepubescent mortality really a way to get into heaven? Hold on! For those who have lost loved ones in that age range... there is another aspect of God's nature to consider before you give up all hope for those loved ones. And no it's not praying for the dead. That is a Mormon myth the same as paying for the dead is a Catholic myth. God is omniscient. We get that. But have we considered all that this means? God knows all things. When? Today? Tomorrow? Yesterday? And what about man's involvement / interference? God is sovereign. And this is where some toes get stepped on in the doctrinal / theological realm... because some believe this means man has no choice and cannot resist the will of God. The evidence of man's choice is all around us and in many many texts of scripture when God himself appeals top man to CHOOSE life not death etc. What these folk miss is that God in his sovereignty has give mankind limited sovereignty (choice) dependent upon the millions of things that limit or oppose us. And this presents no problem for God in his orchestration of all things to produce his will and his desired results. God in his omnipotence knows all things past, present, and future... AND all the possibilities given the choices of men and angels. So, how does this help the parent whose aching empty arms and broken heart mourns for their lost child? Or how does this help those who took the life of their child through legalized infanticide (abortion)? Observe: God in his omniscience knows ahead of time if your baby would have believed in his Son Jesus Christ had your baby lived to make the choice. And that is how you can know you will see them again in heaven. What if they would not have chosen to believe in Jesus? That is the dilemma ALL Christian parents face whether their children are living or dead. Which in itself proves man has a choice and God is not forcing himself upon anyone. Do all babies (who have not reached the age of accountability) go to heaven when they die? You'd be surprised how many people (including great scholars and theologians) believe this with out a shred of evidence to back it up. I surely hope that you are not suggesting that there are babies in Hell. Also, to claim that God knew what choice they would have made sounds foolish to me. How could God know that when he already knew they would be killed. You can't know something that is impossible to occur. Also,even if you could, since neither the baby that would have made the choice for Heaven, nor the baby that would have made the choice for Hell, ever technically made their choices, this would be a travisty of justice. Why not then allow all babies to die since God already knows where they would end up anyway and save them the time of waiting ( I don't mean that literally, just being a little sarcastic to get my point across ). You forget one thing. There IS scriptural support to suggest every single person who dies before they are able to make the choice is granted entrance to Heaven. Two examples. #1. Jesus constantly told his followers to have faith like children and to be LIKE A CHILD if they wanted to enter Heaven, even saying Heaven was made for people like children when he was doing one of this blessings. #2. King David, when his baby died at one week, he said his baby could not come back, but he would go to him. How did David know that his baby was is Heaven? We don't know, but he did and David KNEW he would see him again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coheir Posted February 12, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,458 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 729 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1950 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Here are some verses I found that may apply to this thread. i dont see the 70 or 80 year period mentioned it could be but i dont see it I do agree with the free will of man given by God ( Jesus ). Each person is in a particular life to learn something from our experiences. this world is bad and full of evil things and people we have to endure Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Ecc 9 2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. 3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. 1 Peter 4 12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 1 Peter 5 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. matt 18: 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat8585 Posted February 12, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 1,360 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 7,866 Content Per Day: 1.24 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1946 Share Posted February 12, 2012 This has been bothering me alot lately. If God numbers our days and sets the time for our deaths, does that mean God meant for aborted children to die when they did? If so, for what purpose? Thanx in advance! I don't believe that God sets the time for our death. God knows when we will die.I believe this is the anser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted February 12, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 12, 2012 Though I have not read all the answers i hope this will help. God promised Abraham a child from Sarai. She did not think that God was going to use her so she told Abraham to go in to Hannah. Then Sarah had a child Isaac from Abraham. God did not want Ishmael to be the first born to Abraham bit did not interfere with the choice of humans though God gave His promise to Abram - yet God in His infinite wisdom knew this would happen. Just so God does not want children to be aborted - it must grieve Him greatly. That is not His desire it is 'man/woman's' choice and God does not interfere but lets us do as we will otherwise we would not have free will to do what we choose even if it is not His will for our lives. Sarah could have waited and trusted God but she did not believe at her age that she would have a child and thus the world is in a turmoil with the 2 nations and the 2 religions. We are an impatient and stubborn people and want things now and our way and that can lead to our hurt by not waiting on God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted February 13, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted February 13, 2012 This has been bothering me alot lately. If God numbers our days and sets the time for our deaths, does that mean God meant for aborted children to die when they did? If so, for what purpose? Thanx in advance! After 8 pages of reading interesting conjecture, I forgot the questions. Back to the beginning to quote them. Greetings Tinky, I pray that the Lord bless you with a more perfect knowledge of who Jesus is. A little background information always helps me to understand the hard questions like these. Way back in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were the children of God made from the dust of the Earth. They were dependent upon him to explain to them what was good and what was evil. They didn't have the ability to discern for themselves. But upon eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, their 'eyes' were opened and they became 'free moral agents' with full ability to decide for themselves what 'they' thought was good or evil. Since that time, humans have been doing what is right in their own 'eyes' until being born again and becoming children of God. This always presents a problem for us because we still have our 'eyes' and our sensibilities become offended when we disagree with things that a sovereign God either allows or chooses to cause to happen. Especially in the tender area of killing babies! That said, lets look at your questions. First, let me begin by saying that God numbers our days as he works all things to the counsel of his own will. This fact can be seen in many scriptures but gets clouded due to differing perspectives of who God is (theology). If God is a certain type of person, then a particular scripture must be interpreted a certain way...and so on. God has all knowledge as was said in previous posts. God can also effect any change he desires through merely declaring it to be. So if God knows everything and can make anything happen just by declaring it to be, then nothing is beyond his reach and he is therefore also credited with not acting when he could have. For example: Sodom. He chose to destroy Sodom with full knowledge that if the works done in Capernaum were done in Sodom, they would have repented and not been destroyed. But God chose to speak their destruction instead. Yes, God meant for aborted babies to die when they did. It is a hard truth to stomach for those who have a view of God as all Love as they define Love. Don't worry as the scriptures teach that those babies have no reason to fear judgment. God declared that, in the womb, Jacob and Esau were innocent not having done any good or evil. We will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ (nobody comes to the father but by him) and give an account for how we lived our lives. Those babies won't have anything to account for and will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God with access to the Father. But what possible purpose can God have for allowing the murder of innocent babies? Gods ways are not our ways. God has a plan. His plan is and always has been the perfecting of his creation. He created it 'very good' but is making it 'perfect'. Part of that process is allowing the human race to get so wicked that he is justified in giving them over to Antichrist to reign, which brings in the second coming of our Lord to defeat him and reign in his stead for 1 thousand years. Remember that Israel was delayed in entering into the promised land because the nations that were currently there had not filled up their iniquity before the Lord the Righteous Judge to send Judgment upon them. We are watching the world spiraling in wickedness now and the fullness of the Gentiles is almost in. The iniquity of the 'church' that is now upon the earth is almost full and ready for God to pour out his wrath upon the whore who is ready to commit fornication with the Antichrist when he comes. The abomination of desolation will be complete and the temple of God, that now is, will be destroyed by him. My comments will bring up a plethora of responses because it goes against many dogmatic doctrinal beliefs of people. All I can say is that I have a spirit within me who teaches me these things. I present them as accurately as I understand them. I don't always get it right as my hearing seems 'dull' at times, but as I read through a thread, that which is in me is stirred and speaks in scripture. I am either a vessel unto honor or one unto destruction. I always pray to be considered worthy of the first. In Jesus Name, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j102 Posted February 13, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 443 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 24 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2012 WOW ^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted February 14, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.67 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted February 14, 2012 A little background information always helps me to understand the hard questions like these. Way back in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were the children of God made from the dust of the Earth. They were dependent upon him to explain to them what was good and what was evil. They didn't have the ability to discern for themselves. But upon eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, their 'eyes' were opened and they became 'free moral agents' with full ability to decide for themselves what 'they' thought was good or evil. Since that time, humans have been doing what is right in their own 'eyes' until being born again and becoming children of God. This always presents a problem for us because we still have our 'eyes' and our sensibilities become offended when we disagree with things that a sovereign God either allows or chooses to cause to happen. Especially in the tender area of killing babies! In Jesus Name, Gary If Adam and Eve did not have free will then they could not have chosen to listen to anothers voice, the advesaries. They were created with freewill, the angels have freewill otherwise Lucifer would not have been able to do what he did. shalom, Mizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted February 14, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted February 14, 2012 A little background information always helps me to understand the hard questions like these. Way back in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were the children of God made from the dust of the Earth. They were dependent upon him to explain to them what was good and what was evil. They didn't have the ability to discern for themselves. But upon eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, their 'eyes' were opened and they became 'free moral agents' with full ability to decide for themselves what 'they' thought was good or evil. Since that time, humans have been doing what is right in their own 'eyes' until being born again and becoming children of God. This always presents a problem for us because we still have our 'eyes' and our sensibilities become offended when we disagree with things that a sovereign God either allows or chooses to cause to happen. Especially in the tender area of killing babies! In Jesus Name, Gary If Adam and Eve did not have free will then they could not have chosen to listen to anothers voice, the advesaries. They were created with freewill, the angels have freewill otherwise Lucifer would not have been able to do what he did. shalom, Mizz Absolutely Mizz, I hope I haven't confused you. Free will or the ability to choose what you will or will not do is not the same as being able to discern on your own what you determine to be good or what is evil. Adam was told not to eat so he had the information he needed but yet chose to do otherwise. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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