Denominations?

[JesusisGod2]

The Bible talks about Christians. The Bible doesn't talk about different religions.

Where does all the different denominations of religion come from?

How did they get started?

If the Bible just talks about Christians then shouldn't we all just be Christians?

Again thinking outside the box if this makes sense

Actually "Denominations" have been a problem from at least in Pauls days and Paul addresses it in 1 Cor 10-17

VS 12 "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; I of Apollos; I of Cephas; and I of Christ

VS 13 Is Christ divided?.......................

Denominations are pretty much following the teachings of men which seperate us from the teachings of Christ and Him crucified.

Its really nothing new.

[Dragoon]

---

I would be curious what these 'contradictory doctrines' are that you speak of.

1) Is baptism necessary for salvation?

2) Is a person once saves always saved?

3) Is infant baptism valid?

4) Is baptism by immersion necessary?

5) Is evidence of gifts of the Spirit necessary to assure salvation?

6) Is a person predestined to heaven or hell based soley on God's decision?

7) Does free will impact our salvation?

8) Do works impact a person's salvation?

9) Is abortion morally acceptable?

10) Is homosexual activity acceptable?

Etc.

I can find protestant denominations that answer YES and others that answer NO to each of these questions.

Some of these are entirely valid distinctions though, because the Bible is not clear on them.

Others merely reflect the fact that some 'christian' groups have drifted away from Christ.

Why do you think that these indicate lack of the Holy Spirit's guidance, when it is clear that such 'contradictory doctrines' were there from the earliest days of the church. There not among the pagans, but amongst Christians.

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters... So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. (Ro 14:1-22)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph 2:8-9) Adressing the 'faithful in Christ'... yet they still require this instruction. One does not need to instruct in matters which are above dispute.

If you are concerned about these things though, why do you claim that Catholicism is the only true church, when it has just as many (if not more) faults? If your measure of a 'true' church is 'that all of it's doctrines are true and guided by the Holy Spirit', then why do you not apply the same measure to the RCC that you ask others to apply to their own church?

Do you make your own planks, or do you use pre-manufactured ones?

[OneLight]

My first thought was to go through each of your posts and once again point out the false teachings you bring here, but after reading through the first couple hundred posts, I realized that I would have to post about a third of what you have written.

Fact is, in a nutshell, you use blanket statements about everyone outside the RCC, you have claimed that only those who are in the RCC are in the only church Christ started, and that everything the RCC teaches is the only truth there is being taught. You'll need to read through your own threads to wee how many questions you dodge.

If you want to criticize my comments feel free. Please don't fabricate positions for me using your own words.

Why would you ask me to not fabricate positions? Where have I done this in the past? Is this a means to place a question in readers minds that what I say may be a lie before I even say it?

As I said, I have found too much to post. There are major points that have already been pointed out and question have been asked, but for the most part, you just reply with different questions without giving direct answers. This is not communication, but a means of redirecting attention. If you were as concerned with the truth as you have claimed all through your posts, you would not dodge question, but answer them with your own words. I have not found where an honest line of communication has been developed in most of your responses unless a person happens to agree with you.

[Dragoon]

If you want to impress me with the righteousness of your 'church', then stop speaking to me about men.

Start speaking to me about Jesus of Nazareth.

What did Jesus of Nazareth mean when he said these things?

Ahhh. Nice to see you finally using scripture

John 20

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Jesus meant this;

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Mt 28:18-20)

It is not man (and disciples are merely men) who forgives sin.

Who can forgive sins but God alone?” (Mark 2:7)

For a man to say, 'your sins are forgiven by my power' would be blasphemous.

We can however, give the greatest gift of all; Jesus Christ. Through Him lies the forgiveness of sins.

...and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin (1 John 1:7)

When we are under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we will be guided on when to let God's peace rest, and when to shake their dust from our feet. If we shake their dust from our feet, then their judgement in the final days will make Sodom and Gomorrah pale in comparison.

Test what I have said against scripture.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

So are you saying that Simon Peter has been given power? Has Peter been made into the Messiah? Has Peter been made into God?

Or, has Christ been given all power?

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Mt 28:18-20)

We, not Peter, but all believers in Jesus Christ including Peter, have been given this charge. To preach the gospel through all the Earth. We are not powerful... but He is.

Here is the power that has been given to the Apostles;

For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world. (1 Cor 4:10-13)

Peter was certainly a pillar upon which the church is built, but the chief cornerstone upon which that rests is only Jesus Christ. And the church spoken of was the body of believers in Christ... not the Roman Catholic Church dressed in finery.

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Yes. And the passage starts by saying, "If your brother sins against you";

a) talk to him 'just between the two of you'

b) then, 'take one or two others along'

c) then, if he refuses 'tell it to the church'

So 2, then 2-3, then... why the larger body of Christ. The fellowship of believers that you are a part of.

You know the meaning of church/ekklesia is the body of Christ.

Why do you ignore it and seek to change the meaning of scripture?

Luke 10

16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

(Luke 10:18... the next verse!!!)

Even the demons submitted in JESUS' name...

Are you trying to say that the name you would have me use is Peters'? The Roman Catholic Church? The Pope???

That is blasphemy.

----

You've used exactly these same 4 passages before.

People have given you answers from scripture before.

Will you be ever seeing but never perceiving? Ever hearing but never understanding?

[Dragoon]

---

I would be curious what these 'contradictory doctrines' are that you speak of.

1) Is baptism necessary for salvation?

2) Is a person once saves always saved?

3) Is infant baptism valid?

4) Is baptism by immersion necessary?

5) Is evidence of gifts of the Spirit necessary to assure salvation?

6) Is a person predestined to heaven or hell based soley on God's decision?

7) Does free will impact our salvation?

8) Do works impact a person's salvation?

9) Is abortion morally acceptable?

10) Is homosexual activity acceptable?

Etc.

I can find protestant denominations that answer YES and others that answer NO to each of these questions.

Some of these are entirely valid distinctions though, because the Bible is not clear on them.

Others merely reflect the fact that some 'christian' groups have drifted away from Christ.

Why do you think that these indicate lack of the Holy Spirit's guidance, when it is clear that such 'contradictory doctrines' were there from the earliest days of the church. There not among the pagans, but amongst Christians.

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters... So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. (Ro 14:1-22)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph 2:8-9) Adressing the 'faithful in Christ'... yet they still require this instruction. One does not need to instruct in matters which are above dispute.

If you are concerned about these things though, why do you claim that Catholicism is the only true church, when it has just as many (if not more) faults? If your measure of a 'true' church is 'that all of it's doctrines are true and guided by the Holy Spirit', then why do you not apply the same measure to the RCC that you ask others to apply to their own church?

Do you make your own planks, or do you use pre-manufactured ones?

I have come to believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus built. Perhaps with prayer and study you might reach this conclusion, too. I believe that the Catholic Church is led by the Holy Spirit and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth. I know that you don't currently believe this. I once believed as you believe today.

You can make the case that one particular protestant denomination is the true Church, but you cannot claim this for protestantism in general.

If two churches teach contradictory doctrines, then one or both must be wrong.

I think this is where you are confused.

I make no claim that any protestant denomination is the true church.

Both they and the RCC are merely human led institutions.

It has never been by our 'denominations' that we are saved, nor has it been through how Godly our leaders are, or how sound our denominational doctrine is.

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved. (Acts 4:12) That name is Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

You are absolutely correct that protestant denominations are imperfect.

As are Evangelical ones.

As are Orthodox ones.

As is the RCC.

Only God is perfect.

You seem to have come to the realization that Protestant denominations are imperfect, which is entirely true.

You have then assumed that the RCC must then be the alternative.

That is an error.

If you recognize and reject as the 'true church' those churches which are imperfect, then you must also include the RCC.

Here's a thought for you:

The 'True Church' are all the faithful believers scattered throughout the world, in many and perhaps every denomination.

Their Head is Jesus Christ alone, and Him crucified.

Their leaders are not examples of what is true, but rather the words of their leaders are tested against what is True.

They are each individually imperfect, because man is imperfect, but each seeks to be Holy as God is Holy through submission to the Holy Spirit.

[OneLight]

My first thought was to go through each of your posts and once again point out the false teachings you bring here, but after reading through the first couple hundred posts, I realized that I would have to post about a third of what you have written.

Fact is, in a nutshell, you use blanket statements about everyone outside the RCC, you have claimed that only those who are in the RCC are in the only church Christ started, and that everything the RCC teaches is the only truth there is being taught. You'll need to read through your own threads to wee how many questions you dodge.

If you want to criticize my comments feel free. Please don't fabricate positions for me using your own words.

Why would you ask me to not fabricate positions? Where have I done this in the past? Is this a means to place a question in readers minds that what I say may be a lie before I even say it?

As I said, I have found too much to post. There are major points that have already been pointed out and question have been asked, but for the most part, you just reply with different questions without giving direct answers. This is not communication, but a means of redirecting attention. If you were as concerned with the truth as you have claimed all through your posts, you would not dodge question, but answer them with your own words. I have not found where an honest line of communication has been developed in most of your responses unless a person happens to agree with you.

You distorted my statements.

I did not say that Truth is only being taught in the Catholic Church.

Again, what question do you claim I have dodged?

We can start with the three I asked in the post you just replied to.

Yes, you have stated that only the Church Christ started holds the truth, and that this church is the Roman Catholic Church. Your words:

• "A Church is either being led into all Truth or it is not the Church Jesus built. "
  
• "A Church being led in the fullness of Truth means that all of it's doctrines are true and guided by the Holy Spirit."
  
• and you quoted "For the first thousand years of Christian history, there were no "denominations" within the Christian church as there are today. Various offshoot groups certainly existed, but they were considered "heresies" and not part of the Christian church. Most were small and, until the 16th century, were never very influential. From the beginnings of Christianity through the Middle Ages, there was only one the Catholic ("universal") church. Basically, if you did not belong to the Church, you were not considered a Christian. "
  
• "I have come to believe that the Catholic church is the church Jesus built. Perhaps with prayer and study you might reach this conclusion, too. I believe that the Catholic church is led by the Holy
  Spirit and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth. I know that you don't currently believe this. I once believed as you believe today."

This is from just a few recent posts.

[Dragoon]

If you want to impress me with the righteousness of your 'church', then stop speaking to me about men.

Start speaking to me about Jesus of Nazareth.

What did Jesus of Nazareth mean when he said these things?

Ahhh. Nice to see you finally using scripture

John 20

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Jesus meant this;

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Mt 28:18-20)

It is not man (and disciples are merely men) who forgives sin.

Who can forgive sins but God alone?” (Mark 2:7)

For a man to say, 'your sins are forgiven by my power' would be blasphemous.

We can however, give the greatest gift of all; Jesus Christ. Through Him lies the forgiveness of sins.

...and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin (1 John 1:7)

When we are under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we will be guided on when to let God's peace rest, and when to shake their dust from our feet. If we shake their dust from our feet, then their judgement in the final days will make Sodom and Gomorrah pale in comparison.

Test what I have said against scripture.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

So are you saying that Simon Peter has been given power? Has Peter been made into the Messiah? Has Peter been made into God?

Or, has Christ been given all power?

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Mt 28:18-20)

We, not Peter, but all believers in Jesus Christ including Peter, have been given this charge. To preach the gospel through all the Earth. We are not powerful... but He is.

Here is the power that has been given to the Apostles;

For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world. (1 Cor 4:10-13)

Peter was certainly a pillar upon which the church is built, but the chief cornerstone upon which that rests is only Jesus Christ. And the church spoken of was the body of believers in Christ... not the Roman Catholic Church dressed in finery.

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Yes. And the passage starts by saying, "If your brother sins against you";

a) talk to him 'just between the two of you'

b) then, 'take one or two others along'

c) then, if he refuses 'tell it to the church'

So 2, then 2-3, then... why the larger body of Christ. The fellowship of believers that you are a part of.

You know the meaning of church/ekklesia is the body of Christ.

Why do you ignore it and seek to change the meaning of scripture?

Luke 10

16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

(Luke 10:18... the next verse!!!)

Even the demons submitted in JESUS' name...

Are you trying to say that the name you would have me use is Peters'? The Roman Catholic Church? The Pope???

That is blasphemy.

----

You've used exactly these same 4 passages before.

People have given you answers from scripture before.

Will you be ever seeing but never perceiving? Ever hearing but never understanding?

You deny the crystal clear words of scripture.

1) If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

2) Jesus was given all authority by God. As the Father sent him, so he sent the apostles. How could they not have authority? The authority of the Church IS the authority of Jesus according to his own words!

3) How can we settle a dispute with a brother if we don't agree what is meant by "the church"? Jesus told us to consult the church and you are claiming that it doesn't even exist!

So you're saying I can forgive sins by my power? Then I would BE God. I'm not

So you're saying the Roman Catholic Church Is God? Then I would reject it as a false god.

So you're saying the meaning of 'church' is unclear? Even when scripture itself tells us what it is??

And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.(Eph 1:22-23)

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. (1 Cor 12:27)

I haven't denied the crystal clear words of scripture.

I've merely used scripture to explain what scripture says, in one case by using the very next line!

Because scripture is not a series of disjointed statements, but rather all of scripture is God breathed and speaks of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me... (John 5:39)

Honestly CK, if you spent more time reading scripture and less time reading RCC doctrine, you wouldn't be in this confusion.

[Guest shiloh357]

One only need examine Christian history objectively to see that the RCC's claim to be the infallible interpreter of Scripture is a false claim. Much of what Catholicism holds to is based on tradition, and not Scripture, anyway. Scripture is subordinate to RCC tradition in their view.

Chesterton, people like you are dishonest about RCC history, and the tyrannical reign of the RCC which ended up in the murder of anyone who dared challenge RCC teachings. Simply translating the Bible warranted death penalty. Some of the darkest days of human history was when the RCC ruled Europe. RCC history is bloody and did not reflect the teachings of Christ.

The RCC was defanged when the masses were able to read the Bible for themselves and see that what they were being told by the RCC was not really true.

[nChrist]

chestertonrules

I have come to believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus built. Perhaps with prayer and study you might reach this conclusion, too. I believe that the Catholic Church is led by the Holy Spirit and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth. I know that you don't currently believe this. I once believed as you believe today.

You can make the case that one particular protestant denomination is the true Church, but you cannot claim this for protestantism in general.

If two churches teach contradictory doctrines, then one or both must be wrong.

You have come to a false conclusion, and nobody here is going to join you. The RCC is a false church with doctrines that don't resemble God's Word. Those who are saved in the RCC are saved in spite of the RCC - not because of it. If you haven't noticed, this is NOT a Catholic forum. I, for one, pay no attention at all to your Catholic propaganda because I know how FALSE it is. I can't believe that you have been given free reign to do what you're doing. It makes me sad that the lost and the babes in Christ are even exposed to your false propaganda. Your doctrines are FALSE and don't resemble the Holy Bible, and everyone here knows it. Bluntly, you don't know or speak the TRUTH.

http://carm.org/roman-catholicism

The authority is God and God's Word - period - end of story. Hopefully, those with common sense will measure the TRUTH with God's Word. Using this measurement, the RCC has huge problems and is exposed as FALSE.

[nChrist]

One only need examine Christian history objectively to see that the RCC's claim to be the infallible interpreter of Scripture is a false claim. Much of what Catholicism holds to is based on tradition, and not Scripture, anyway. Scripture is subordinate to RCC tradition in their view.

Chesterton, people like you are dishonest about RCC history, and the tyrannical reign of the RCC which ended up in the murder of anyone who dared challenge RCC teachings. Simply translating the Bible warranted death penalty. Some of the darkest days of human history was when the RCC ruled Europe. RCC history is bloody and did not reflect the teachings of Christ.

The RCC was defanged when the masses were able to read the Bible for themselves and see that what they were being told by the RCC was not really true.

Amen! - I give thanks every day that the TRUTH is in GOD'S WORD, and it exposes the FALSE. The RCC is FALSE.

http://carm.org/roman-catholicism