Are Christians Perfect?

[Oh Hamburgers!]

You see, with out Christ, I would have eventually had produced evil fruit. For I know the darkness in my own heart, and I know that He has been changing me.

Greetings Mr 6:8.

Your story is a touching one, but I have questions about this specific line.

I do recognize that if you try to be a "good Christian" you will naturally have a better behavior, but I don't think that growth is exclusively a Christian aspect. Spiritually perhaps this growth of maturity with God & Jesus might make you advance like a baby to a toddler, but "being good" isn't something just Christians can claim.

While Christianity is the largest religion in the world, the majority of the world isn't Christian. Yet still much of the world (not all) has societal rules that coincide with what we have here in America. Laws & responsibility are valued regardless of your religious leanings, and there are millions (probably billions) of people who don't identify as Christian but still do good to their family and the people they meet.

My point is if you determine "good fruit" to be a consistent pattern of good behavior among others, it is not something that only Christians can bear.

If instead "good fruit" is how you profess your faith or perhaps devote time speaking to others about Jesus, then perhaps that is something more inherently "Christian".

[enoob57]

You see, with out Christ, I would have eventually had produced evil fruit. For I know the darkness in my own heart, and I know that He has been changing me.

Greetings Mr 6:8.

Your story is a touching one, but I have questions about this specific line.

I do recognize that if you try to be a "good Christian" you will naturally have a better behavior, but I don't think that growth is exclusively a Christian aspect. Spiritually perhaps this growth of maturity with God & Jesus might make you advance like a baby to a toddler, but "being good" isn't something just Christians can claim.

While Christianity is the largest religion in the world, the majority of the world isn't Christian. Yet still much of the world (not all) has societal rules that coincide with what we have here in America. Laws & responsibility are valued regardless of your religious leanings, and there are millions (probably billions) of people who don't identify as Christian but still do good to their family and the people they meet.

My point is if you determine "good fruit" to be a consistent pattern of good behavior among others, it is not something that only Christians can bear.

If instead "good fruit" is how you profess your faith or perhaps devote time speaking to others about Jesus, then perhaps that is something more inherently "Christian".

May I add to this perhaps a better clarity... All things in God's creation has place and purpose sin has confused all of that! The only One Who 'IS' not confused is

God and those He gives this clarity to in the form of truth: unbounded, inescapable, undeniable authority of what will be!

His statement "there 'IS' only one good and that 'IS' God" brings the simple to the complex -> only God has the authority to call anything good... we can stand on our own

ability and authority but that would become lie as to that which God has said! The witness of The Son was I do only the things My Father shows me to do thus 'AS' man

He has shown us the path to Him is the one that follows after Him.... we can only be imitators but truly as a child we then commit that following to His Will and He affirms

that of Himself by the fruit that it bears... Love, Steven

[simplejeff]

On 6/13/2012 at 3:43 PM, Oh Hamburgers! said:

Laws & responsibility are valued regardless of your religious leanings, and there are millions (probably billions) of people who don't identify as Christian but still do good to their family and the people they meet.

Do GOOD ?   (as if society can do good,  recently/ in last 100 years? )

>> Compare this to what is "good" >>>

Scholarly articles for poisoning american children

… pollutants and disease in American children: estimates … - ‎Landrigan - Cited by 574 … teeth of urban and suburban American children - ‎Needleman - Cited by 178 … of lead-exposed American children as a function of … - ‎Mushak - Cited by 58   Excerpts: 1.2 million children in the US have lead poisoning. We're only treating ... https://www.vox.com/...and.../us-underreports-lead-poisoning-cases-map-community Apr 27, 2017 - In five states in the American West — Washington, Nevada, New Mexico, Colorado, and Oregon — only one in 10 children were treated for lead poisoning. Studies have largely focused on lead poisoning from old housing stock in the US (built before 1950), which is most highly concentrated in the Northeast and Midwest. Poison Statistics National Data 2015 - Poison Control https://www.poison.org/poison-statistics-national Reports to U.S. Poison Control Centers. How Many? In 2015, the 55 U.S. poison control centers provided telephone guidance for nearly 2.2 million human poison exposures.1 That's about: 6.7 poison exposures/1000 population,; 41.9 poison exposures in children younger than 6 years/1000 children,; 1 poison exposure ... Half of child lead poisoning cases in US are going undetected ... www.businessinsider.com/lead-poisoning-states-us-2017-5 May 3, 2017 - 1.2 million children likely suffer from lead poisoning in the US — but half are undetected. ... Lead poisoning is far less common now than it was in the 1980s. ... The number of lead poisoning cases declined dramatically toward the end of the 20th Century. Poisoning Prevention | Child Safety and Injury Prevention| CDC Injury ... https://www.cdc.gov/safechild/poisoning/index.html Apr 28, 2016 - Additional Resources. UpandAway.org; PoisonHelp; American Association of Poison Control Centers, Inc; Prevent Child Injury Available toolkits include laundry detergent packets, liquid nicotine, and medication safety.

[MorningGlory]

Oh no!  Another Moldy Oldie.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

Holy moley my 5.5 year old post has been brought back from the dead! I live again!

Quote

Do GOOD ?   (as if society can do good,  recently/ in last 100 years? )

>> Compare this to what is "good" >>>

Society has done lots of bad (as your sources on lead poisoning show) but I don't think anyone would argue that nothing good has come out of society. Just looking out my window at work I see public goods (public transportation, public roads, general peacefulness in a busy city, electrical systems, plumbing). 

All over the world regardless of religion/non-religion humans are capable of great and terrible things. 

[vlad]

On 10/16/2011 at 4:46 PM, Isaiah 6:8 said:

The subject of Christians and fruit and good behavior and bad behavior has come up a lot recently, so I felt I needed to clarify what it means to have good fruit and what it means to be a Christian.

 

To start off, Christians are not perfect. They still struggle with different issues. Christians still have issues with anger, with pride, with selfishness and lust. Being a Christian does not make you into a perfect angel. It means you have started on the path to perfection, which we will obtain by the sacrifice of Jesus when we make it into heaven. The Bible states as such.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many people in the world however judge Christians by there behavior, and say things such as "Look that Christian lost his temper and said a bad thing so they are no different then me." or on the flip side " I am not a believer but I am nicer that christian over there so I am better then him."

 

You see they mistake fruit to be an individual action or behavior. The point is not if they make a mistake now and again, the question is more of as a whole, does there life show a change? Or what would that person be like with out Christ.

 

For instance, a person with out Christ may be likened to a baby who does not know how to walk yet. As they learn they fall constantly, and as often as not decide to crawl instead. Yes they can take a few steps from time to time, but they still wind up back on all fours. Now a Christian is like more like a older toddler. They walk all the time, however they still fall from time to time, as they grow and learn they fall less and less until one day it almost never happens.

 

Now I know this is not a perfect example, for of course in the natural course of life, all babies, unless crippled for some reason eventually learn to walk, and they need no outside influence to do so.

 

Spiritually, Christians are people who are just learning to walk, and can not do so with out the help of God to teach them. The fruit is shown that they are indeed walking, even if they stumble and fall from time to time. A baby that always crawls and rarely walks and stays that way is showing no progress, no fruit. So you see, if you knew what a person would be like, or was like with out Christ you may understand what fruit there life has produced.

 

Let me perhaps make it a bit clearer by me telling a bit about myself.

 

When I was in school I was a bully magnet. I was a good head shorter then everyone else, save one or two of the girls, I had braces head gear, neck gear, I was a nerd and a goody two-shoe. My family was also lower middle class so I wore cheap clothes and hand me downs. I was an easy target and as such I was often bulled and harassed over and over again, and the teachers, when told about it simply blamed me and said it was my fault.

 

This went on for a few years and by the time I was in sixth grade it was getting bad. I was threatened with a beating if I did not wear the "in" brand of shirt, I was picked on because I was still a virgin at 13 years old, and I did not fit in with any crowd. I was getting to the point that I was almost willing to do anything to stop the attacks. I was willing to throw away all of my morals if it meant a day in school with out being bullied.

 

Yes I was a Christian at that time and but it was not fully real to me. I was willing to throw it away to stop the pain. My mom did, wisely take me out of that school and I had a chance to regain a sense of who I was.

 

You see, while I was spared having to deal with that, by my parents, it showed me one thing looking back. It showed me who I would be with out Christ. I would be just like everyone else. I would not see anything wrong with weed, with sex outside of marriage with anything that was sinful. The really scary thing is this. Due to the years of being bullied, I could even seeing me lashing out like so many of the bullied kids have and perhaps even gone so far as to find a way to cause harm to my antagonists violently, as I was already wiling to start fights to keep people off my back.

 

You see, with out Christ, I would have eventually had produced evil fruit. For I know the darkness in my own heart, and I know that He has been changing me.

 

Now I am not perfect. I still have issues with my anger, and lust, and pride, even on the boards I have lashed out at people in frustration. Just because I have made mistakes does not mean that is who I am , and who I will be, it means I tripped, and fell down. Falling down is one thing, crawling and wallowing in the mud is another.

 

So for those who point out that Christians don't bear good fruit, you can not say that unless you know the whole story. You need to know where they are coming from and how far they have come before you can try to judge that.

 

Remember fruit is more then just one action, mistake or even good deed. Fruit is the over all change in the persons life, the whole package, and that may take some time.

 

For instance John Newton became a Christian he was a slave ship captain at the time, who in a storm had even thrown all his "cargo" of slaves overboard to save his ship. After his conversion, he still did two more slave ship voyages. Does this mean his conversion was not real, or producing good fruit? No it means he was still learning and growing. The thing is this, after he realized how evil it was to be a slaver, he became a minister of the gospel and helped William Wilberforce to abolish the slave trade in England. He also wrote a hymn that is still sung widely today where he explains how amazing it was that he was saved, although he was, as he put it ,a wretch. He is the author of the hymn "Amazing Grace."

Agree with you. Being a Christian is not usually a result. It is a way to perfection.

[brakelite]

It has been said in this thread that Christians are like children and because they fall, they have not been perfected yet...but I would suggest that even a baby is perfect. And so is the toddler...the older child...the teenager (even). What I am saying is that at whatever stage we are at in our Christian walk, so long as we are growing...so long as we are surrendered and laying before our heavenly Father all our life and all that pertains to it, then we are perfect. Perhaps not sinless...but perfect in living up to all the light and providence that our Father has graciously granted us. Not yet fully matured, but even rosebuds are no less perfect than a fully developed bloom at that stage of growth they are at. At whatever stage of our walk, we can indeed be perfect as we are being transformed by the Spirit into whatever He makes of us.

[4LdKHVCzRDj2]

1 hour ago, brakelite said:

we can indeed be perfect as we are being transformed by the Spirit into whatever He makes of us.

We are not perfect, but in Christ, we should strive to become better each day.

"A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher." - Luke 6:40

 

In the name of the Lord Jesus, for the glory of God. Amen.

"in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility,
sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you." - Titus 2:7-8

"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
    unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me." - John 15:4

"By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples." - John 15:8

[simplejeff]

Instead of thinking like English/ Western thought and language intimates/ suggests,

when reading the Bible,

when Jesus says YOU MUST BE PERFECT , because  YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER IS PERFECT,

it is better

to believe Jesus, 

and realize the foibles of the English/ Western language/way of thinking.

The error is NOT IN JESUS. 

JESUS is PERFECT, and says we must be PERFECT , as our Heavenly FATHER IS PERFECT, 

so we must be PERFECT, as JESUS SAYS,  NOT as western/American/ English supposes,

and we are,  when God accomplishes this , or states this,  when we obey Jesus.

[simplejeff]

On 1/16/2018 at 9:18 AM, Oh Hamburgers! said:

Holy moley my 5.5 year old post has been brought back from the dead! I live again!

Society has done lots of bad (as your sources on lead poisoning show) but I don't think anyone would argue that nothing good has come out of society. Just looking out my window at work I see public goods (public transportation, public roads, general peacefulness in a busy city, electrical systems, plumbing). 

All over the world regardless of religion/non-religion humans are capable of great and terrible things. 

SOciety ?  Society ?  According to who ?   

Let's see what God's Word says about society , okay ?

See in Galatians.    Expanded Greek by Wuest, available free online in pdf format:

"Who gave Himself in behalf of our sins, so that He might rescue us out from this present pernicious age, according to the will of our God and Father."

See at this link/ pdf/ the (rather long) definition of pernicious in the original : found with any online search engine possibly:

• [PDF]

  Galatians in the Greek New Testament by Kenneth Wuest This work...

  www.chirpz.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2013/04/Galatian...

  File format:Adobe PDF

  Who gave Himself in behalf of our sins so that He might rescue us out from this present pernicious age, according to the will of our God and Father. Verse five. Translation. To whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen. II. The Galatian Christians are rebuked and the Judaizers denounced (1:6–10). Verses six and seven.

The value of this lesson is extra-ordinary in that it starts to show more

how great a Salvation in Christ Jesus we have in Him,  "WHAT" we are saved from !   (evil all around us)