Are Christians Perfect?

[Isaiah 6:8]

The subject of Christians and fruit and good behavior and bad behavior has come up a lot recently, so I felt I needed to clarify what it means to have good fruit and what it means to be a Christian.

To start off, Christians are not perfect. They still struggle with different issues. Christians still have issues with anger, with pride, with selfishness and lust. Being a Christian does not make you into a perfect angel. It means you have started on the path to perfection, which we will obtain by the sacrifice of Jesus when we make it into heaven. The Bible states as such.

Philippians 3 (NKJV)

Pressing Toward the Goal

12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,let us be of the same mind.

Many people in the world however judge Christians by there behavior, and say things such as "Look that Christian lost his temper and said a bad thing so they are no different then me." or on the flip side " I am not a believer but I am nicer that christian over there so I am better then him."

You see they mistake fruit to be an individual action or behavior. The point is not if they make a mistake now and again, the question is more of as a whole, does there life show a change? Or what would that person be like with out Christ.

For instance, a person with out Christ may be likened to a baby who does not know how to walk yet. As they learn they fall constantly, and as often as not decide to crawl instead. Yes they can take a few steps from time to time, but they still wind up back on all fours. Now a Christian is like more like a older toddler. They walk all the time, however they still fall from time to time, as they grow and learn they fall less and less until one day it almost never happens.

Now I know this is not a perfect example, for of course in the natural course of life, all babies, unless crippled for some reason eventually learn to walk, and they need no outside influence to do so.

Spiritually, Christians are people who are just learning to walk, and can not do so with out the help of God to teach them. The fruit is shown that they are indeed walking, even if they stumble and fall from time to time. A baby that always crawls and rarely walks and stays that way is showing no progress, no fruit. So you see, if you knew what a person would be like, or was like with out Christ you may understand what fruit there life has produced.

Let me perhaps make it a bit clearer by me telling a bit about myself.

When I was in school I was a bully magnet. I was a good head shorter then everyone else, save one or two of the girls, I had braces head gear, neck gear, I was a nerd and a goody two-shoe. My family was also lower middle class so I wore cheap clothes and hand me downs. I was an easy target and as such I was often bulled and harassed over and over again, and the teachers, when told about it simply blamed me and said it was my fault.

This went on for a few years and by the time I was in sixth grade it was getting bad. I was threatened with a beating if I did not wear the "in" brand of shirt, I was picked on because I was still a virgin at 13 years old, and I did not fit in with any crowd. I was getting to the point that I was almost willing to do anything to stop the attacks. I was willing to throw away all of my morals if it meant a day in school with out being bullied.

Yes I was a Christian at that time and but it was not fully real to me. I was willing to throw it away to stop the pain. My mom did, wisely take me out of that school and I had a chance to regain a sense of who I was.

You see, while I was spared having to deal with that, by my parents, it showed me one thing looking back. It showed me who I would be with out Christ. I would be just like everyone else. I would not see anything wrong with weed, with sex outside of marriage with anything that was sinful. The really scary thing is this. Due to the years of being bullied, I could even seeing me lashing out like so many of the bullied kids have and perhaps even gone so far as to find a way to cause harm to my antagonists violently, as I was already wiling to start fights to keep people off my back.

You see, with out Christ, I would have eventually had produced evil fruit. For I know the darkness in my own heart, and I know that He has been changing me.

Now I am not perfect. I still have issues with my anger, and lust, and pride, even on the boards I have lashed out at people in frustration. Just because I have made mistakes does not mean that is who I am , and who I will be, it means I tripped, and fell down. Falling down is one thing, crawling and wallowing in the mud is another.

So for those who point out that Christians don't bear good fruit, you can not say that unless you know the whole story. You need to know where they are coming from and how far they have come before you can try to judge that.

Remember fruit is more then just one action, mistake or even good deed. Fruit is the over all change in the persons life, the whole package, and that may take some time.

For instance John Newton became a Christian he was a slave ship captain at the time, who in a storm had even thrown all his "cargo" of slaves overboard to save his ship. After his conversion, he still did two more slave ship voyages. Does this mean his conversion was not real, or producing good fruit? No it means he was still learning and growing. The thing is this, after he realized how evil it was to be a slaver, he became a minister of the gospel and helped William Wilberforce to abolish the slave trade in England. He also wrote a hymn that is still sung widely today where he explains how amazing it was that he was saved, although he was, as he put it ,a wretch. He is the author of the hymn "Amazing Grace."

[justjen33]

My question is how did God know that two and half months after you wrote this I would be seeking these very words? I just recently experienced conversion after ten years of being a christian. God does this. He always always puts me right where I need to be. Even when I fail Him. Because I did tonight. I failed miserably. I told a man I loved him when in fact I do not. I also know in my heart that God has another man for me.

You see even though I was saved I was back slidden and lost for the past couple of years. Yearning and searching for fufillment in everything else bit Him, in Christ. Pain and disappointment followed me like a storm cloud. Then in the past few weeks things started clicking together I found a home church. Christian music became my preferred choice. I came across a man's profile on a dating site that was an example of a Godly man. God spoke to me at that moment and told me that if I waited on HIM, He, God, would bless my life with that type of man and relationship. I started to obey getting rid of bad relationships ans and walking away from inappropriate things in my life. Then I met a youngg man who is the epitomy of what I had been seeking for so long. I do not know of it is this young man who is the one meant to be in my life or if God is simply showing me a precious jewel, an example of what is to come. . All I know is that since this conversion, which is more than kust a seeking of a partner, I cannot get enouggh of God. I found this site. I found a book about being a Godly woman. And tonight when I failed the Lord and feared losing what I just gained He brought me to your words, and I know with out a shadow of doubt, those words were for me.

Thank you. He, Yaweh, Father, is amazing, I dont have the words to praise Him right now. I have no clue why He loves me but He does. Bless you for listening to Him when you wrote this post.

Jen

[Michae]

In spirit we are perfect to the Father, in soul-mind we are being renewed to see Christ as our life, being joined unto the Lord we are one with Him.

[enoob57]

My question is how did God know that two and half months after you wrote this I would be seeking these very words? I just recently experienced conversion after ten years of being a christian. God does this. He always always puts me right where I need to be. Even when I fail Him. Because I did tonight. I failed miserably. I told a man I loved him when in fact I do not. I also know in my heart that God has another man for me.

You see even though I was saved I was back slidden and lost for the past couple of years. Yearning and searching for fufillment in everything else bit Him, in Christ. Pain and disappointment followed me like a storm cloud. Then in the past few weeks things started clicking together I found a home church. Christian music became my preferred choice. I came across a man's profile on a dating site that was an example of a Godly man. God spoke to me at that moment and told me that if I waited on HIM, He, God, would bless my life with that type of man and relationship. I started to obey getting rid of bad relationships ans and walking away from inappropriate things in my life. Then I met a youngg man who is the epitomy of what I had been seeking for so long. I do not know of it is this young man who is the one meant to be in my life or if God is simply showing me a precious jewel, an example of what is to come. . All I know is that since this conversion, which is more than kust a seeking of a partner, I cannot get enouggh of God. I found this site. I found a book about being a Godly woman. And tonight when I failed the Lord and feared losing what I just gained He brought me to your words, and I know with out a shadow of doubt, those words were for me.

Thank you. He, Yaweh, Father, is amazing, I dont have the words to praise Him right now. I have no clue why He loves me but He does. Bless you for listening to Him when you wrote this post.

Jen

It is written why we love Him because He has first loved us... prayed for your growth! Love, Steven

[enoob57]

Thank you for this gift my friend... it has, on His day, added to my heart the joy of Him! Love, Steven

[Watchman Neo]

In spirit we are perfect to the Father, in soul-mind we are being renewed to see Christ as our life, being joined unto the Lord we are one with Him.

Yes, from His eternal, spiritual perspective, we are perfect. In time and space, however, we are being made perfect. The Greek word Paul used in the Philippians passage quoted in the OP carries the idea of mature, complete, lacking nothing necessary for completeness. It does NOT mean sinlessness.

I was bullied for a short time in the 9th grade. It took one fight to stop it...that, and hitting 6'4" & 200 pounds. I cannot abide a bully of any sort and my heart goes out to those who are being bullied.

blessings,

Watchman Neo

Edited December 25, 2011 by Watchman Neo

[taylor30]

Christians are by NO means perfect, however our record is erased at conversion thereby giving us a perfect standing in Heaven in God's eyes. This teaching is called Justification.

[pecanpie]

Perfection in the Biblical sense will not happen until we are fully transformed. Now, if we talk about "holiness" that is something completely different. Being holy means being set apart for God. As part of being set apart a series of behaviors are expected... under the direction of the Holy Spirits by surrendering ourselves to him and with the power of the Word we are in a process of transformation while on this earth.

[Rare Bird]

Further elaborating, one must understand that salvation consists of three elements (NOTE: I am NOT saying these are "Steps" to salvation, but rather, a PROCESS that believers experience and should endure as their Christian walk continues here on earth):

1. Justification... declares believers righteous when they repent and believe on Jesus (i.e., our passport to Heaven is stamped free of charge) Romans 5:8-9..11
   
2. Santification... is the struggle between our sinful nature and that of the Spirit. It is during this time while on earth that we mature and reap heavenly rewards in order to receive the inheritance as an "adopted son." Romans 7:14-8:5; 1 Cor 3:11-15 and 2 Cor 5:10
   
3. Glorification... is the separation of sin from our flesh when we are given a new body in Heaven. Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:19-23;
   Colassians 3:1-4
   

During the time sanctification--while the believer remains on earth in a flesh-covered, sinful body--is when a believer matures in the Spirit. And just like a child growing up, their are growth pains and a good share of "falling down" and "touching hot stoves." It's also during this time--and maturing process--that sin now becomes a choice as we are no longer in bondage to it; and because we are human, we do fail. Just as the apostle Paul did. So no. Christians aren't perfect in terms of what the temporal world considers "perfect."

But they are justified in the eyes of God through Christ Jesus and it is up to us to confess our sins in order to maintain a relationship and cleansing (1 John 1:9) that will help us press on to the prize (Phil 3:12-15). The ticket to heaven was bought and paid for at Calvary--all one has to do is accept it. Then, after it's accepted, it's up to the believer to mature (or not), which will determine his/her rewards in heaven.

¹⁴ For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. ¹⁵ For what I [Paul] am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. ¹⁶ But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. ¹⁷ So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. ¹⁸ For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. ¹⁹ For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. ²⁰ But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

²¹ I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. ²² For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ²³but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. ²⁴ Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? ²⁵ Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. ~ Romans 7:14-25

Edited June 6, 2012 by Rare Bird

[Rare Bird]

Further elaborating, one must understand that there are three parts to salvation (by "parts" I do not mean that there are "steps" to becoming "saved", but rather, that it is a process):

1. Justification... declares believers righteous when they repent and believe on Jesus (i.e., our passport to Heaven is stamped free of charge) Romans 5:8-9..11
   
2. Santification... is the struggle between our sinful nature and that of the Spirit. It is during this time while on earth that we mature and reap heavenly rewards in order to receive the inheritance as an "adopted son." Romans 7:14-8:5; 1 Cor 3:11-15 and 2 Cor 5:10
   
3. Glorification... is the separation of sin from our flesh when we are given a new body in Heaven. Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:19-23; Colassians 3:1-4
   

During the time sanctification--while the believer remains on earth in a flesh-covered, sinful body--is when a believer matures in the Spirit. And just like a child growing up, their are growth pains and a good share of "falling down" and "touching hot stoves." It's also during this time--and maturing process--that sin now becomes a choice as we are no longer in bondage to it; and because we are human, we do fail. Just as the apostle Paul did. So no. Christians aren't "perfect" from a temporal, earthly perspective.

But they ARE justified in the eyes of God through Christ Jesus and it is up to us to confess our sins in order to maintain a relationship and cleansing (1 John 1:9) that will help us press on to the prize (Phil 3:12-15). The ticket to heaven was bought and paid for at Calvary--all one has to do is accept it. Then, after it's accepted, it's up to the believer to mature (or not, as is the case with "carnal (or earthly-minded) Christians"), which will determine his/her rewards in heaven.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Rare Bird