Preterism versus Futurism

[JohnD]

Please make your case here. Use scripture.

[Floatingaxe]

Hello, John...

Simply put, scripture says,

Matthew 24:36

“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

If preterism was true, then this passage of scripture would be a lie to us in this age, and eschatological references in scripture would be moot, not to mention many other exhortations.

[Bold Believer]

Hello, John...

Simply put, scripture says,

Matthew 24:36

“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

If preterism was true, then this passage of scripture would be a lie to us in this age, and eschatological references in scripture would be moot, not to mention many other exhortations.

The day or hour of what? Is Jesus speaking of the Second Coming or... the impending judgment coming on Jerusalem?

I contend the latter.

The context of Mt 24 is derived from the three chapters before it, all of which refer to various rebukes He made on the Israeli leadership.

Mt 24 even starts with the disciples asking Jesus three questions:

Mat 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

1. When will these things happen? What things? The destruction of the Temple. Jesus just told them that not one stone would be left upon another. (When did that happen? 70 AD)

2. What will be the sign of your coming? Mat 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

3. What will be the consummation of the age? Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand).

Dan 9:26, 27 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined

"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

It's the end of the city that Jesus is referring to. All through the preceeding chapters, he's been chewing up and spitting out the Jewish leadership and telling them:

The city will be burned up (Mt 22:7, in the parable of the Wedding Supper)

The leadership are the ones responsible (Mt. 23:27-39 specifically v 38 "Your house is left to you desolate". The Temple was their house. It was the very center of the Jewish belief system and where the sacrifices were carried out.)

Last but not least, Jesus says not once but TWICE (thus verifying the veracity of the statement)

Mat 23:36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation

Mat 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Since he is specifically rebuking the scribes and Pharisees, and he tells both them and the disciples that 'this generation' (the one he was speaking to) would not pass until ALL THESE THINGS TAKE PLACE, what reason do we have to assign them to the future? N O N E.

Mat 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Mat 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

These verses are often used as prooftexts that He is talking about the Second Coming. But notice please that Mt 24:34 says the generation to whom He speaks will see it. The Tribulation (Time of Jacob's trouble) would be followed by a time of political upheaval in Israel. They've rejected Moschiach, the survivors are being carried off (the Diaspora) there is no definitive leadership anymore. And it is the SIGN of the Son of Man that appears in the heavens, not the Son of Man: In other words, they will know beyond the shadow of a doubt that it come from Him. He predicted it. And then God's messengers (remember angyelos means messengers, EARTHLY or HEAVENLY) go out and gather the elect from one end of heaven to the other. That is consistent with Rev 20's declaration that Satan can no longer deceive the nations. Now, the Gospel can go out to the rest of the world and not JUST the Roman world. The future world, which is US.

IF Jesus was referring to the Second Coming, then he must be confused, because 2 Peter 3 says the heavens will explode with fire and the earth and all of its works will be burned up. Jesus never says that in Mt 24.

2Pe 3:10-12 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

and again:

Rev 20:9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of thesaints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Jesus also said the resurrection would be on the LAST DAY. (John 6) He never mentions the resurrection, only a synagoguing (gathering) of his people.

[Floatingaxe]

Matthew 24:36 refers to the Second Coming, as referred to in verse 30. Preterists believe that Jesus has already returned in 70 A.D. He hasn't. They are wrong.

If my Jesus has already returned and we are in the Millennium as they say, then I would have access to Him physically, as His throne would be a literal throne here on Earth. Not only that, but as His child, I would be ruling with Him in some capacity, as part of the government of the Earth.

So far, that is completely yet to occur. Preterists tend to not have an ability to correctly divide the word of truth, but they sure can disseminate someone else's strange ideas---bad seed.

[Bold Believer]

Matthew 24:36 refers to the Second Coming, as referred to in verse 30. Preterists believe that Jesus has already returned in 70 A.D. He hasn't. They are wrong.

If my Jesus has already returned and we are in the Millennium as they say, then I would have access to Him physically, as His throne would be a literal throne here on Earth. Not only that, but as His child, I would be ruling with Him in some capacity, as part of the government of the Earth.

So far, that is completely yet to occur. Preterists tend to not have an ability to correctly divide the word of truth, but they sure can disseminate someone else's strange ideas---bad seed.

And again: You call me a preterist, when I am not. You honestly have no clue what you're talking about. I laid out Scripture. You have offered 2 prooftexts. Also, we are no longer IN the thousand years; it has passed. Messiah reigned from the heavenly Jerusalem. He makes intercession for us in the Holy of Holies of HEAVEN (Hebrews 9). Jesus must be held in heaven until the restoration of all things (Acts 3).

When Jesus DOES return. there will be no mistaking it, trust me.

[Floatingaxe]

Matthew 24:36 refers to the Second Coming, as referred to in verse 30. Preterists believe that Jesus has already returned in 70 A.D. He hasn't. They are wrong.

If my Jesus has already returned and we are in the Millennium as they say, then I would have access to Him physically, as His throne would be a literal throne here on Earth. Not only that, but as His child, I would be ruling with Him in some capacity, as part of the government of the Earth.

So far, that is completely yet to occur. Preterists tend to not have an ability to correctly divide the word of truth, but they sure can disseminate someone else's strange ideas---bad seed.

And again: You call me a preterist, when I am not.

Where?

You honestly have no clue what you're talking about. I laid out Scripture. You have offered 2 prooftexts. Also, we are no longer IN the thousand years; it has passed. Messiah reigned from the heavenly Jerusalem. He makes intercession for us in the Holy of Holies of HEAVEN (Hebrews 9). Jesus must be held in heaven until the restoration of all things (Acts 3).

I happen to know exactly what I am talking about, Mr. Cheeky.

We have yet to see the thousand year reign of Christ, who has yet to appear again to the world. If you think He has come and we who are His kids have missed Him, then you are in deception....and either a preterist, or just plain wrong.

When Jesus DOES return. there will be no mistaking it, trust me.

When He does return, I will be riding with Him.

Jesus Christ returns with His redeemed people and shall reign for a thousand years---a time of peace, natural and enforced (rod of iron), and all men shall submit to His Kingship.

Isaiah 4:2-4

Isaiah 11:6-9

Matthew 24:29-31

Matthew 25:31-46

Revelation 1:7

Revelation 20:6

[Bold Believer]

Matthew 24:36 refers to the Second Coming, as referred to in verse 30. Preterists believe that Jesus has already returned in 70 A.D. He hasn't. They are wrong.

If my Jesus has already returned and we are in the Millennium as they say, then I would have access to Him physically, as His throne would be a literal throne here on Earth. Not only that, but as His child, I would be ruling with Him in some capacity, as part of the government of the Earth.

So far, that is completely yet to occur. Preterists tend to not have an ability to correctly divide the word of truth, but they sure can disseminate someone else's strange ideas---bad seed.

And again: You call me a preterist, when I am not.

Where?

You honestly have no clue what you're talking about. I laid out Scripture. You have offered 2 prooftexts. Also, we are no longer IN the thousand years; it has passed. Messiah reigned from the heavenly Jerusalem. He makes intercession for us in the Holy of Holies of HEAVEN (Hebrews 9). Jesus must be held in heaven until the restoration of all things (Acts 3).

I happen to know exactly what I am talking about, Mr. Cheeky.

We have yet to see the thousand year reign of Christ, who has yet to appear again to the world. If you think He has come and we who are His kids have missed Him, then you are in deception....and either a preterist, or just plain wrong.

When Jesus DOES return. there will be no mistaking it, trust me.

When He does return, I will be riding with Him.

Jesus Christ returns with His redeemed people and shall reign for a thousand years---a time of peace, natural and enforced (rod of iron), and all men shall submit to His Kingship.

Isaiah 4:2-4

Isaiah 11:6-9

Matthew 24:29-31

Matthew 25:31-46

Revelation 1:7

Revelation 20:6

Just so we don't have any mistake here, you don't have a clue about what I personally believe. Your initial statement that Preterists beleive Jesus came in 70 AD is correct. Since you don't distinguish between full and partial preterism, it seems on my end that you're insinuating that I'm one more full preterist.

Preterism is indefensible IMO. The Full guys try and make the Days of Vengeance (Jesus' term, not mine) out to be the Second Coming. One of the things that makes it even more difficult is the use of the word Parousia in some verses. Parousia and erchomai are both words used in these passages. On occasion, the two are interchangable.

Where the Full Preterists err (most) is trying to dump our bodily resurrection into the resurrection of Jesus. We are promised as individuals that if believe in Christ, we will be raised on the Last Day and be given changed bodies.

Now...where does the Futurist err? First, we must define the term futurist, for since I believe that the Second Coming is yet future, that makes ME in error if I lump them all together.

Futurism has many basic parts:

I. Pre-Millennialism: This belief states that Jesus will return before a literal millennial period of exactly 1000 years.

A. Pre-tribulational pre-millennialism further states that Daniel's 70th week has been lopped off the Daniel 9 prophecy and is yet

future. This teaching places the tribulation period in the 70th week, and subdivides the TP into 2 equal 1260 periods. They believe in

'the antichrist', a figure who will rule the world in the last seven years before the return of Jesus. Finally, they believe in what they call

the rapture of the church, when allegedly the Church will be removed from the world so that the antichrist can come along.

B. Mid-tribulational pre-milennialism believes that the rapture will come in the middle of the allegedly future 70th week. Other than

that, their beliefs agree with pre-mils.

C. Post-tribulational premillennialism believes the church will go through the entire 70th week and that the rapture will happen moments

before the Second Coming.

It is this belief that holds the most sway in modern eschatology. It's the one belief most commonly espoused publicly, and quite frankly the one every 'right-standing Christian' is expected to believe. God help ya if you believe anything other than pre-millennialism, because you WILL be ostracized. If you don't believe in the secret rapture, you'll catch the devil as well.

II. A-millennialism: This belief states that there is no literal 1000 year millennial period, but the Church Age is the millennial reign and that Christ will return after a long period of Christian rule over the nations. IF I'm not mistaken, I also recall that at least some of the A-mils believe that the Church will convert nearly the whole world and that things will get better over time. This belief is/was popular in many Reformed churches.

III. Post-millennialism: This belief states that there is a millennium and that Christ will return after it. It is a lot like a-millennialism, except that the post-mils believe in a literal millennium. Post-millennialists also tend to believe that the world will get better through common grace and the pre-eminence of Christianity.

A- and post-millennialism have fallen into disrepute because they tend to be the province of liberal churches which believe other things heretical, i.e.: No Virgin Birth, Social Gospel, Fatherhood of God/Brotherhood of Man, God is dead and so on.

Since there are few outspoken A-mil or post-mil teachers, I believe we should set them aside in this discussion. I will say that they tend to forget that the millennial reign has an end and that Satan will released from the bottomless pit to lead Magog against the Church and leave it at that.

My primary focus will be on pre-millennial teaching. See ya next time.

[Bold Believer]

And again: You call me a preterist, when I am not. You honestly have no clue what you're talking about. I laid out Scripture. You have offered 2 prooftexts. Also, we are no longer IN the thousand years; it has passed. Messiah reigned from the heavenly Jerusalem. He makes intercession for us in the Holy of Holies of HEAVEN (Hebrews 9). Jesus must be held in heaven until the restoration of all things (Acts 3).

When Jesus DOES return. there will be no mistaking it, trust me.

So, you do not believe that most or all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD? You do not believe that Nero was the Antichrist (there is no way he could be)? Your belief about the Millennium alone brands you as a preterist, or at the very least, someone who accepts a great deal of a preterist's belief system. Preterism is total bunk and it makes a total mockery of God's Word.

I believe that 70 AD was the fulfillment of Daniel 9, a period which Jesus referred to in Luke 21:22 as 'the Days of Vengeance in which all things which are written may be fulfilled.'

I DO NOT believe that Nero was 'the antichrist'. Nero was 666 however, his name adds up to 666, and he did all the things which Rev 13 says he would. He persecuted the saints for 1260 days. He died of a head wound. He demanded worship. He was the leader of the oikumene or occupied world. He was the personification of Rome, as say, JFK, was the personification of 60s America, or George Washington was the personification of fledgling America, or Lincoln was the personification of Civil War America.

As I have stated over and over and over again to the point of pain in my hands from typing, antichrists are defined by the Apostle John. There is no antichrist dictator.

What I believe about the millennium is that it is the fulfillment of Isaiah 2. It was a literal period of time, but not exactly 1000 years. Christian influence held sway world wide. It was pre-dominant. We call our very date system Anno Domini: The Year of our Lord. Christian thought caused much good to come about in the world. Many great things happened as a result of Christian thought and Christian influence. Nations were converted to Christian government. (No, not everyone was saved, but they did fall under the influence of those who were.) The gospel went out unto the whole world and the glory of the nations came into belief in Jesus.

[Floatingaxe]

Just so we don't have any mistake here, you don't have a clue about what I personally believe.

I never posted to you before your wildly defensive comment.

[Guest shiloh357]

What I believe about the millennium is that it is the fulfillment of Isaiah 2. It was a literal period of time, but not exactly 1000 years. Christian influence held sway world wide. It was pre-dominant. We call our very date system Anno Domini: The Year of our Lord. Christian thought caused much good to come about in the world. Many great things happened as a result of Christian thought and Christian influence. Nations were converted to Christian government. (No, not everyone was saved, but they did fall under the influence of those who were.) The gospel went out unto the whole world and the glory of the nations came into belief in Jesus.

Much of that is a bit exaggerated.

Christianit is not the majority religion in the world and never has been. A lot of good did come from Christian thought, but there has been a crescendoing of good and evil for just as long. Nations were converted to "Chrisitian" government, but did no necessarily act "Christian." When Christianity held political sway there was just as much sin and corruption as in nonChristian governments. Many nonBelievers held office in "Christian" governments.

The millennial predictions of Isaiah bear no resemblance to any given in time in world history despite your attempts to force part of history into the mold of Isaiah 2.

As for Anno Domini, that dating system was not even in existence until the 6th century and was not commonly used until the 9th century.