Preterism versus Futurism

[Guest shiloh357]

LOL, 357

Translation—you don’t have sufficient biblical support to make your case so you are taking your toy six guns and going home.

No, that is not true. I interact with preterists all of the time. I go to a Christian university and I have professors who are preterists and some classmates who hold to preterism too. But we interact in polite conversation and we have genuine respect for each other's differences because there is so much more that we have in common. We debate and discuss all of the time, but we don't make fun of each other.

You on the otherhand are just a mocker. I won't enage you on the issue because you are a waste of time and a waste of bandwidth. I am not going to waste my time enagaging you just you can make fun of me. You have proven that you are not worthy of REAL, intelligent debate due to your need to enage in mockery.

As well you should—you need to put your big boy pants on in the forum and not have a cardiac arrest when you get called out on bad scriptural application.

It is a good thing that you are a futurist, because you don’t have the internal fortitude to be a Preterist. It takes a real man to be a Preterist.

This is the kind of low-browed nonsense I am talking about. You cannot hold intelligent, adult conversation. The one acting immature is you, not me. It takes a real man to be able to dialogue in a mature manner. Hopefully you will figure out how to do that some day.

I get called every name allowed in forums, banned from forums, mocked, ridiculed and generally given every manner of disrespect allowed in forums, but I don’t let it upset it me.

The problem here in case you haven't noticed is that no one is calling you any names and mocking you. No one here is trying disrespect you, so your attitude and behavior is not justified nor defensible. Just because it happened to you elsewhere does not mean you are welcome to inflict it on members of this board.

If it did I wouldn’t be in a forum. I like being challenged and I want people to make their best scriptural case against me. I don’t care about their vitriol nor worry about their disrespect.

And so since you don't care if people respect you, you think it is okay to come over here and heap disrespect on others simply because they don't agree with you about Preterism??? That is what you consider acceptable dialogue??

I can handle it and debate and even be friends with those I strongly disagree with without being upset by the give and take of a forum.

What you are doing is not "debate." I can handle the exchange of ideas, even when it gets heated, but I don't make fun of people. Mocking me and making fun of me does not amount to challenging me and I have plenty of friends I disagree with. I don't get upset with people for simply disagreeing with and I can assure you that you won't say anything I have not heard before. I reason for not debating with you is based only on the fact that you are mocker and I am not going to waste my time crafting a response only to be mocked and treated like a fool. That is not debate, and I am not in the habit of letting people use me for their entertainment.

But debate in forums isn’t for everyone

I am a seasoned debator on this forum. But you are right, debate in these forums isn't for everyone and you demonstrate that quite well through your mocking behavior. You would be better served interacting on a different forum if this mockery is all you have to offer.

Preterism is ONE point of view. There are intelligent people who hold to different points of view and do not deserve to be made fun of.

[Montana Marv]

Logos1

Since all is past; Who are you in Christ Jesus?

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Steve_S]

I DO NOT believe that Nero was 'the antichrist'. Nero was 666 however, his name adds up to 666, and he did all the things which Rev 13 says he would. He persecuted the saints for 1260 days. He died of a head wound. He demanded worship. He was the leader of the oikumene or occupied world. He was the personification of Rome, as say, JFK, was the personification of 60s America, or George Washington was the personification of fledgling America, or Lincoln was the personification of Civil War America.

As I have stated over and over and over again to the point of pain in my hands from typing, antichrists are defined by the Apostle John. There is no antichrist dictator.

What I believe about the millennium is that it is the fulfillment of Isaiah 2. It was a literal period of time, but not exactly 1000 years. Christian influence held sway world wide. It was pre-dominant. We call our very date system Anno Domini: The Year of our Lord. Christian thought caused much good to come about in the world. Many great things happened as a result of Christian thought and Christian influence. Nations were converted to Christian government. (No, not everyone was saved, but they did fall under the influence of those who were.) The gospel went out unto the whole world and the glory of the nations came into belief in Jesus.

What period are you speaking of here exactly? Asia has billions of people who have never lived under "pre-dominant" Christian influence. The peoples of the western hemisphere didn't live under such either until the past 300ish years. "World wide" is a bold statement. "Christian influence" has never "held sway" world wide, certainly never simultaneously. I'm not really trying to argue a futurist view here (though I hold one), however, the lens of history certainly does not bear out your argument. I understand the points you are making, some of them are logical and reasonable. Far Eastern cultures have never had a Christian majority (or anything REMOTELY close to one). The mideast and a good bit of africa have been islamic for at least the past 1000 years as well. I'm not trying to judge you for being a preterist or anything. You're entitled to your beliefs. I just ask that you don't make blanket statements that really aren't true.

[OneLight]

Colossians 4:6

Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

[Isaiah 6:8]

Just a reminder folks, from the TOS.

Abuse of other posters is not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to, name calling, insulting, harassing, threatening or in any way invading the privacy of another poster. We also strongly discourage giving out personal information such as email addresses, physical addresses and phone numbers on the public boards. Any information given out in private is at your own discretion and risk. (Eph. 4: 29)

Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating. Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God! This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted! Users that cannot respect others will be banned. (Lev. 19:18)http://www.worthychr...tion=boardrules

Personal attacks are not allowed, if they continue I shall shut the thread down.

[Floatingaxe]

2 Timothy 2:16-18

Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior. This kind of talk spreads like cancer, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus. They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have turned some people away from the faith.

[Guest shiloh357]

Wow now that was a long winded response for someone who was just going to ignore me!

I am ignoring you as far as your views on preterism are concerned.

What a pity party. Did your feelings get a boo boo 357. You really like making yourself a victim don’t you. Maybe instead of hiding behind being a victim you should man up and post some scripture to make your case. All I see is someone making excuses for not having scriptural support for his position so he wants to run away and pretend he is being victimized.

Why should I post my case? All you will do is make fun of me. That is the point. You continue to prove everything I said in my last post. All you have is mockery. It is not an excuse. Given your bad behavior, why would I want to put anything else out there just to have you try to make me look stupid for posting it???

I would argue that if your case was as strong as you think it is, you would not have to resort to mockery. It doesn't make you look smart. I just makes you look prideful and arrogant.

I am not playing a victim at all. People play the "victim card" in order to avoid having to be accountable in the face of legitimate critiicsm. They try to deflect legitimate criticism into an attack to avoid having to be accountable for wrong actions or deeds for which genuine crticism is deserved. You have not leveled legitimate critiscm. All you have done is make fun of me and I am not the only one who is rebuking you for it. Other members are seeing it for what it is and if you continue, you will end up getting the thread closed.

Oh, I never said intelligent people didn’t hold other viewpoints—you are just putting words in my mouth.

I didn't accuse you of saying that; so no, I didn't put any words in your mouth. I simply made an observation.

I use to be a dispy myself, but I had to yield to the obvious view scripture takes on the matter. When intelligent people support their positions with scripture they can debate differences and even win people over. Whining about being disrespected is an excuse to avoid exposure of a weak position.

See the problem began with the disrespect. You don't seem to think there is anyhting wrong with making fun of me. I have no problem providing a strong defense for what I believe. I debate men at my university who are worthy of my respect and we intelligently debate the issue and never once did anyone resort to making light of the other person. Do you think that your constant attempts at making light of me will win me over to your point of view???

You want to think I have a weak argument but I have not really begun to debate the issue with you and I don't see a reason to debate with you. I will if necessary debate the issue with other preterists on this board, just not you.

All this crying about being a victim doesn’t impress me. I'm sure you will change a lot of view points with victimhood.

LOL, I am not trying to impress you. I am simply pointing out why you don't deserve the benefit of an intelligent debate. You don't possess the qualities that a true debater possesses as is evidenced by your continual attempt to belittle and denigrate me as a crybaby for not liking how I am being treated by you. As long as you continue to defend unChristlike behavior, you are simply reinforcing my reasons for refusing to engage you in a debate on Preterism.

Nor am I trying to change any points of view. The debates over Preterism vs. Partial Preterism, Amillennialism, Dispensationalism, Covenant Theology etc., have been ongoing for years and are not essential doctrine. It is not like essential positions such as the deity of Christ, the inerrancy of Scripture and so on. I am able to debate with others about it because they are not settled and there are compelling arguments made by each side. So to pretend that you have it all nailed down and then to make fun of someone for having the temerity to disagree with you demonstrates that you have a less than adequate grasp on the issue and would probably not be worth debating any way. Sorry, I just won't waste my time with some one like you.

[goldust59]

WOW, looks like a case of "pot calling the kettle black" to me.

Isaiah, where are you?

[JohnD]

Hello, John...

Simply put, scripture says,

Matthew 24:36

“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

If preterism was true, then this passage of scripture would be a lie to us in this age, and eschatological references in scripture would be moot, not to mention many other exhortations.

A very good point.

[JohnD]

Wow. I was going to try to respond to each reply to my OP, but this argument has taken on a life of its own. Borderline childish in some cases, I'm afraid.

I am a futurist because it is what the Bible literally teaches. When I say "literally" I mean "literally." Preterists (full and partial) tend to spiritualize much scripture to make it seem to support their preconceived ideals or interpolations of very subjective terms in scripture like "soon," "near," "at hand," etc. to which I persistently ask what the Preterist does with the passage:

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

...hoping that someday someone of the Preterist persuasion would not slough off a verse of holy scripture as they do. Because Preterism would make a good point at certain passages if "soon," "near," "at hand," etc. only applied to the way we perceive time and that there were no other time tables to consider. But there are many time tables in scripture. And there are many applications of them including the fact that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years to man and a thousand years to man as a day to the Lord. "Soon," "near," "at hand," etc. could be ten thousand years to us.

Matthew 24:15-34 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

70 CE was a repeat of 586 BCE. That alone disproves both forms of Preterism as antisemitic drivel.