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Preterism versus Futurism


JohnD

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Regarding the Temple...

God intended the Temple to be the body of believers all along.

David and Solomon rammed the Jewish Temple down everyone's throats and God condescended to deal with Israel on that basis until the Messiah came just as he did the monarchy (read 1 Samuel 8).

2 Samuel 7:12-13 (KJV)

12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Which David took to mean Solomon and he put Solomon up to completing the Temple he started preparations for. But the Lord had another meaning for that prophecy:

Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJV)

12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

None other than the Messiah was the one whom God intended to build the Temple. Further,

Hebrews 8:5 (KJV)

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Neither David or Solomon had the pattern Moses had to build the tabernacle God commissioned him to build.

Matthew 16:18 (KJV)

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1 Peter 2:3-9 (KJV)

3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1 Corinthians 3:16 (KJV)

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

But there is no doubt a temple was built without God's commission by Solomon (the one whom 666 points to) and that there will be a Temple standing in the end time (which will not be destroyed btw, but cleansed and used in the millennium).

With the exception of a literal third temple. I agree with you John.

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Shalom, Bold Believer.

...

No, actually, I didn't know that. I'm not as well versed in science as I should be. It never really interested me in school. When the Master comes back, the oxygen will certainly be rendered unusable by living beings. It will not be breathable again until he remakes the heavens and earth.

Being well versed in science, what is your take on Gehenna? Would the fire there not render oxygen unusable? And would it not consume the bodies cast into it? My understanding in that regard is that the outer body is consumed, leaving only the spirit and soul to be tormented for eternity. You might consider doing a topic on the matter from the scientific and spiritual POV.

A good catch on bara vs asah. The distinction is very important. Another one is anastasis vs anazoe in Revelation 20. BIG difference there.

Actually, you are missing a key point on the Millennium: The oxygen will not be rendered unusable by living beings "when the Master comes back." The global Fire doesn't occur until AFTER the Millennium, JUST BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgment, and BEFORE the New Earth and its New Sky are re-created and the New Jerusalem descends.

There are three passages of Scripture that one must harmonize to get a good picture of the chain of events: 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, 2 Peter 3:3-13, and Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1-2. 2 Peter 3:3-13 is the broadest perspective, essentially covering the entire range of time the human race has existed and will exist. I won't take the time to develop the harmony here, but it would be worth your while to study it out.

Secondly, you asked about my take on Gehenna or rather Gei-Hinnowm. It is a localized area just southeast of Jerusalem. It is NOT a global event. Furthermore, it will be mostly for the war tribunal of the Messiah after the Battle at Har Megiddown, Tel Megiddo at the southern pass in the mountain range that extends southeast from Haifa, Isra'el. As a strategic vantage point, the battle will be for that Tel, but most of the battle will occur north of that in the plain below, today known as Gei-Yizre`el, or the Valley of Jezreel. When the returning Messiah and His army arrive, his white-hot anger and passionate zeal for His people and His Land will make short work of His opponents.

You asked, "would it not consume the bodies cast into it?" The reality is that a literal fire WOULD consume the bodies thrown into it, but one must consider another verse that is often ignored but is still part of the canon of Scripture:

Isaiah 66:23-24

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

KJV

This gives us a hint as to WHEN this will occur; again, it will be at the END of the Millennium.

The parables of Matthew 13 are often (and almost universally) thought to be about this present age in which we live. Many say that the "Church" is the "Kingdom of heaven" or the "Kingdom of God"; HOWEVER, there are contextual clues, both within this chapter and in the chapters surrounding it, to suggest that these parables have nothing to do with the "Church" and are about the KINGDOM AGE, known today as the Millennium yet to occur, the first 1000 years of God's reign through His Representative, His "Mashiach," His "Messiah," His "Christ," who will then be the King of Isra'el on His way to becoming the "King of kings and Lord of lords," a title that Nebuchadnezzar used to refer to himself, meaning "World Emperor."

Thus, with the exception of the first parable, the parables of Matthew 13 are about the Millennium. Here are two of those parables:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

KJV

Matt 13:47-50

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

KJV

Again, these parables are NOT about the present time period; they are about the Kingdom Age. In both parables the word "world" in verses 39, 40, and 49 is not the Greek word "kosmos," which is often translated "world," but is the word "aioonos," which means "an age," and therefore both of these parables happen at the END of the Kingdom Age or the Millennium. Verses 41-43 and 49-50 should also be compared to I Corinthians 15:20-28 and Revelation 20:1-15. THAT is when the ones who offend, who do iniquity, the wicked, shall be thrown into the furnace of fire or the lake of fire and sulfur.

These ones who offend, who do iniquity, the wicked, will have been resurrected at the Second Resurrection in preparation for the Second Death. Their resurrected bodies will not be mere mortal, corruptible bodies anymore. They, like the justified who were resurrected before them, will have immortal and incorruptible bodies so that their "worm" (their "torso") will not die!

A person is not whole without his or her body. The "soul" is the combination of the body and the "spirit," just as the "breather" is the combination of the body and the "breath." How would a "spirit" be tormented without a body? The body must be able to FEEL the torment! The bodies themselves, having been resurrected as immortal and incorruptible bodies, won't burn; however, the fires around them may be fueled with material that will burn. They may be kept burning continually until ... when?

Some Christians are adamant in saying that they will suffer forever. Others are not so sure. IMO, it is possible that they will suffer until they have paid for their crimes and learned their lessons. Now, if you want to believe that they can NEVER repay the debt they owe to God for the rejection of the Gift of His Son's Death as the Sacrifice for their sins, I can see that being true. So, it is possible that they will suffer forever. However, if you choose to believe that their punishment is temporary, however long it may last, then it will be terminated and they will be set free, having done their time. The Jews believe that there is punishment after death, but for most individuals who have wronged someone else, they will only have to suffer a year or two, depending on the forgiving attitude of the wronged party. For men like Adolf Hitler, they will suffer much longer, proportionate to their crimes. The bottom line is ... I don't know. The Scriptures SAY "for ever and ever," but the phrase comes from Greek words meaning "into the ages of the ages." Is that OUR understanding of "forever?" I don't know. These are matters best left in the capable hands of the Judge of the earth, Yeshua`. I trust Him to make the wise and just judgments.

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Hey great posting, I just thought I might throw this out for consideration.

Suppose Eternal punishment actually is multiple meanings;

Either eternal torment or the second/final death.

Seems that would explain some conflict in scriptures regarding Satan, fallen angel, false profits, etc……eternal torment

V

Liars, adulterer’s, fear mongers, unbelievers etc,,,,second/final death

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Matt 25:41-46 (KJV)

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have

their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 21:1-8 (KJV) Their part of eternal punishment, they are Dead forever.

pray for discernment

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.... But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 21:1-8 (KJV) Their part of eternal punishment, they are Dead forever....

Discernment

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:47-48

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  • 4 years later...

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On 12/12/2011 at 2:02 AM, JohnD said:

Please make your case here. Use scripture.

Greetings JohnD,

 

Grace and mercy and peace from our Lord Jesus Christ.

First of all, notice the expression "the things that must happen afterwards". Note the change of verbal time between present and past so quickly in the same chapter of the revelation (in particular, in Rev. 1:20, change from "saw" to "are", "are" in the same verse - see below).

 

o   “Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [ it ] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.” (Revelation 1.19,20).

 

In addition, the expressions "soon to come", "after these will happen", "after these must happen" show that past, present and future are well connected.

Look:

 

o   “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [ it ] by his angel unto his servant John:” (Revaltion 1.1).

o    “After this I looked, and, behold, a door [ was ] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [ was ] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” (Revelation 4.1)

o   “And he said unto me, These sayings [ are ] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.” (Revelation 22.6).

 

When we see from the earth, we tend to see the here and now. From the heavenly point of view, however, there is no such distinction of time.

Notice that, as John said, the things revealed from chapter four would happen after what was happening in the oholyao. Therefore, they are not allegorical, nor have they happened only in the past. Rather, they have been happening throughout history and will continue to be fulfilled until Jesus comes. And as they are related to Daniel, so the book of Daniel, even though it may have had a partial fulfillment in the past, its full fulfillment is yet to be fulfilled.

Summarizing: the book of revelation has already happened, is happening and will still happen. Moreover, it is an exact synthesis of one's life. That is, each one is born in sin and condemned to hell, that is, within the Great Babylon, marked by the beast and seduced by the false prophet. But it is up to us to hear the message of the two witnesses and the 144,000 sealed, to repent, to convert, and then to live the same life-style of the Lamb of the Eternal in order to overcome the beast with its mark and image and thus be able to live in communion with Christ for all eternity.

May Jesus speak to us so that we may have in us the victory that overcomes the world (Romans 10.17; 1John 5.3).

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Wow, this is a full 5 years since I posted what you quoted.

I am having a tough time determining which side you are defending (Preterism or Futurism). 

Perhaps Partial Preterism with an argument that both Futurism and Preterism are true in part.

Again, I am unclear what you are saying, exactly.

Dr. Chuck Missler makes a very good point in that Revelation is his choice as to which book of the Bible a novice should begin studying...

"...because it is defined by the rest of the Bible and therefore it forces the student to dig into the rest of scripture to study just Revelation."

To sum up:

  • I would only like to point out, from the vantage point of uncertainty what your post means, that the Bible is a prophetic book which tells the

same story over and over in many different ways about the past, present, and future. You can find prophetic inferences to the Great Tribulation

in Genesis (the 7-year famines), certainly Exodus (the 9 plagues of Pharaoh), and so on. 

  • Next, the linear order events occur (one follows the other etc) do not necessarily prove when events took place in history (especially with regard to

end time prophecy). For example the aforementioned famines and plagues do not indicate the Great Tribulation took place in Egypt 4,000 years ago....

I have found in my debates with Preterists this is precisely what they will do with other texts than the ones I am referring to (to prove the point this is

an invalid form of reasoning). For example, the messianic prophecies in Isaiah would be fulfilled in Isaiah's lifetime ("unto US a Son IS born..."). I have debated Jewish

Rabbis on this very point that this and the "alma" (maiden) who shall be a sign by giving birth was not the mother of Mahershalalhashbaz (as they tried to say in order to

discredit the text as a prophecy about the Messiah's virgin birth.

It is a similar form of what Preterism does (relegating the fulfillment of prophecies to the past on flimsy / debatable evidence or wording).

  • This brings me to the texts you site about "soon" or "near" or "at hand" etc. "Soon, near, at hand," according to whom? God or man? 

2 Peter 3:8 (AV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

"This," the Preterist will argue vehemently at times, "is only hyperbole, figurative language... meaning God doesn't view time the same way we do nor is he bound by time."

I agree that an application of this can be interpreted that way.

BUT! 

It is far more specific a text than "soon, near, at hand." So the Preterist is guilty of picking and choosing what they take literally and what they take as spiritualizing...

This is a very dangerous thing to do often deterring people like the Rabbis I mentioned from belief in the Jewish Messiah Jesus (and therefore their only chance for eternal salvation). I am only citing here what this kind of fooling around with the Word of God can do. I am not saying Preterists are unsaved. But I will make the point that it could be an indication (one of many) that one might not be personally as saved as they believe. Matthew 7:21-23 depicts both people who will try to lie their way out of judgment, and people who are self deceived into believing they are saved when in fact they are not. So I am not discounting the possibility that this (and all belief systems that are not as in harmony with scripture as people believe) {might} be and indication that one is climbing the wrong spiritual ladder.

Even for actually saved Preterists who like most believers take a wrong turn somehow... Preterism removes the prophetic warnings God places in scripture to warn people of impending events by relegating them to past fulfillment... they say the Great Tribulation, for example, happened 1st Century CE. Based almost entirely on such arguments as "soon, near, at hand" texts in the Bible.

Hosea 6:2 (AV)
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.


Did this happen in Hosea's lifetime? It does say "us..."

Was this about the time Jesus' body was in the tomb?

Was it about a three thousand year time frame regarding the time of the gentiles?

 

 

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To the OP

The Lord is a futurist, not a preterist

Preterism tells of the ending for Israel in 70 AD .... far from the truth

His discourse for the time of the end is a longer look past 70 AD to the end of this present age still pending

Preterism is held by most of the professing "church" today and this view is false

Many scriptures support the Lord's second advent with regard for Israel as a nation

 

 

 

 

Edited by Daniel 11:36
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